Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

Morale

 

[razvedchiki]

Archers are really powerful in this game due to lack of cover, and flanking being a condition instead of a bonus for the flankers only (which it should have been in the first place).

My party has been a Sylvan Sorcerer, an aberrant bloodrager, an archer cleric that self buffs with their own animal companion, and a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster with the last two slots being filled by companions. Biggest flaw has been the lack of long lasting buffs (most last rounds per level or are on other lists) on the cleric list and that there isn't really time to use it, so the cleric isn't as useful most of the time. She's really important for condition removal of conditions that require a caster level check, which is hard to do with a non-Cleric. I liked being able to drop stinking cloud on the enemies and have the bloodrager (who is immune to the condition) and ranged attackers pound on the enemies.

Next play I think I'll go Wizard with a Warpriest companion and 4 companions.

Closer to tabletop mod changes all that.

 

[ArchAngel]

Whats your take for dual wielding?
Most optimised dex dual wielder for hard?
Slayer?weapon option?

Pure rogue or pure fighter. or a Rogue 4/Fighter rest. Or maybe some of the prestige classes.

Whats your take for dual wielding?
Most optimised dex dual wielder for hard?
Slayer?weapon option?

Pure rogue or pure fighter. or a Rogue 4/Fighter rest. Or maybe some of the prestige classes.

Well, clearly a Vivisectionist 16 / Rogue 4 or Vivi 12 / Rogue 8 is superior to pure rogue. Or with a monk dip.

But I guess a Slayer is cool also.

Quad Debilitating (double choices and effect) has got to be worth it for at least Rogue 12.

Edit: Forgot you told me Vivi levels advance Rogue Talents.

Blinding Critical is better than any rogue debilitation and works without flanking.

Blind is pretty great, agreed. But there are other application methods, sometimes superior. Starting with the lowly level 2 Glitterdust spell.
Also Greater Invisibility buff can provide similar benefits vs most enemies.
Plus with Shatter Defenses you gain some of its big benefits semi-permanently.

Debilitation on the other hand stacks with other debuffs....

Glitterdust is a low level spell that lets enemies get a new save every round. Blinding Critical is permanent. Glitterdust is cool early game, but for late game it cannot compare.
Greater Invisibility costs resources and actions. Also has a low duration and it is stopped by Uncanny Dodge, see invisibility, Glitterdust and similar stuff. Blindness is only somewhat foiled by Blind Fighting which is a feat rarely anyone has.
Shatter Defenses is nice but also not as good.
Critical feats also stack with other debuffs , like Rogue debilitating by another character like Nok Nok

I feel like people here have not explored the power of pure fighter. They are pretty good in Pathfinder with feat every level and weapon training and resistances vs fear. My ranged fighter had all feats like ranged ranger and also lot more. He could afford to get GReater weapon feats and Greater Iron Will.
With two weapon fighting you get 7 (or 8? ) attacks without buffs. Your attack is so high you hit with your worst attack. With all the spec and training bonuses that is lots of extra damage.

 

[Haplo]

Not saying they are bad, but... boring. Lacking distinct, game-changing abilities. Also comparing Greater Weapon Specialization + Weapon Training with damage bonuses other classes get is pretty sad. Unless we're talking the two-handed variant.

Blinding Crit is nice and free. But requires you to:
1. Engage enemy
2. Land a crit, beat enemy save.

Meanwhile other effects can blind/make unaware multiple enemies, even before they engage.

 

[Daidre]

Imho, Fighters became obsolete when Slayer was added - you get full bab, Ranger Styles, Sneak Attack, close amount of bonus feats and access to some Rogue Advanced Talents. For fighters, couple of unique feats, Armor and Weapon training, especially with Gloves of Dueling, are nice but kinda outclassed.

They looked a bit better next to Monks, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians, but new class wrecked chaos in full bab niche. Petless Rangers are victim too.

 

[ArchAngel]

Not saying they are bad, but... boring. Lacking distinct, game-changing abilities. Also comparing Greater Weapon Specialization + Weapon Training with damage bonuses other classes get is pretty sad. Unless we're talking the two-handed variant.

Blinding Crit is nice and free. But requires you to:
1. Engage enemy
2. Land a crit, beat enemy save.

Meanwhile other effects can blind/make unaware multiple enemies, even before they engage.

Actually they work best with two weapon fighting because all the weapon training and greater weapon specialization bonuses are applied 2x. Also with a Kukri or some exotic weapon with good base crit and 7 (8 with haste) you will be critting a lot. And the DC for blind is very high as it is 10 + your base attack bonus so a lot by high levels. And when you crit your training and weapon spec is now also 2x (or 3x) for even more damage. And if you reach lvl 20 with fighter with an exotic weapon that is now x4 crit...

Imho, Fighters became obsolete when Slayer was added - you get full bab, Ranger Styles, Sneak Attack, close amount of bonus feats and access to some Rogue Advanced Talents. For fighters, couple of unique feats, Armor and Weapon training, especially with Gloves of Dueling, are nice but kinda outclassed.

They looked a bit better next to Monks, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians, but new class wrecked chaos in full bab niche. Petless Rangers a victim too.

Slayer does get full bab but loses on training and weapon specialization. His weaker Sneak attack comes about same as those Fighter bonuses but only when you flank, not always like Fighter gets. Also sneak does not work vs barbarians and some enemies. And he still has +5 to attack over Slayer (except when Slayer is attacking favored enemies).

And Fighter has +10 attack over rogue at lvl 20. That is a lot... Rogue will not be even hitting stuff with his last attack, fighter will get two attacks with two weapon fighting at that range and still one last attack that will still be +5 over last rogue attack. 9d6 sneak attack means little if you cannot hit enemies.

 

[Haplo]

The gap isn't that big. In case of Slayers you're forgetting Studied Target. In case of Rogues, you're forgetting Debilitating Injury.

 

[Daidre]

Slayer does get full bab but loses on training and weapon specialization. His weaker Sneak attack comes about same as those Fighter bonuses but only when you flank, not always like Fighter gets. Also sneak does not work vs barbarians and some enemies. And he still has +5 to attack over Slayer (except when Slayer is attacking favored enemies).

Slayer also get Study Target up to +5 Attack and Damage and as free action (auto applied on Sneak) you can hit every enemy with this nice bonuses. 4 Rogue + 16 Slayer with Opportunist, Double Debilitation, 8d6 sneak and 19 bab will brutally outperform any fighter, even multi-classed for same Rogue (Vivi) 4 levels.

 

[ArchAngel]

Ah yes you are both right. I did miss Study Target. That ability + sneak attack does seem to make Slayer better than a fighter. Only advantage left to fighter is specialization to critical hits and his capstone ability (and bonuses vs fear). I guess this is what happens when you are adding new classes to the core game, they are always stronger than core ones.

EDIT: And I guess armor training is a bit of advantage to fighter if you are going high Dex but that is not worth without taking rogue levels to get Dex to damage but you lose fighter capstone in that case which is a big loss of damage if you went crit route.

EDIT: This is what fighter is missing in the game to be able to compare to likes of Slayer:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter?/#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training

 

[Daidre]

EDIT: This is what fighter is missing in the game to be able to compare to likes of Slayer:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter?/#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training

Actually, most of the PK - compatible feats from Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery, Effortless Dual-Wielding, Fighter’s Tactics) were patched in the game with Slayer. They require second tier of weapon training (lvl 9) and incompatible with Two-Handed Specialist though, who is sexiest of fighter's archetypes.

 

[Haplo]

I think they were actually added with Varnhold's Lot DLC (and probably require that DLC, like Feral Wings or magus metamagic Arcana).
Slayer was patched later - and is free (requires no DLC).

With Advanced Martial Arts mod you can also get these (not sure, maybe they've been removed once they became official content?) Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options and more.

 

[ArchAngel]

EDIT: This is what fighter is missing in the game to be able to compare to likes of Slayer:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter?/#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training

Actually, most of the PK - compatible feats from Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery, Effortless Dual-Wielding, Fighter’s Tactics) were patched in the game with Slayer. They require second tier of weapon training (lvl 9) and incompatible with Two-Handed Specialist though, who is sexiest of fighter's archetypes.

Two handed is sexy in TB, in real time he is weaker. In TB he is also weaker than two weapon crit version that I was talking about. Two handed weapons don't get 2x fighter bonuses on each swing. Power attack bonuses don't cover it as you can power attack with two weapon if you really want to :D

 

[Daidre]

Two handed is sexy in TB, in real time he is weaker. In TB he is also weaker than two weapon crit version that I was talking about. Two handed weapons don't get 2x fighter bonuses on each swing. Power attack bonuses don't cover it as you can power attack with two weapon if you really want to :D

A think with x2 power attack, x2 STR bonuses and a good weapon like Vanquisher super axe or Serpent Prince he will leave dual wielding fighter in the dust. Nothing this heavy hitting among one-handers.

 

[razvedchiki]

I think they were actually added with Varnhold's Lot DLC (and probably require that DLC, like Feral Wings or magus metamagic Arcana).
Slayer was patched later - and is free (requires no DLC).

With Advanced Martial Arts mod you can also get these (not sure, maybe they've been removed once they became official content?) Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options and more.

are the advanced armor training feats for the fighter considered overpowered?

 

[ArchAngel]

I think they were actually added with Varnhold's Lot DLC (and probably require that DLC, like Feral Wings or magus metamagic Arcana).
Slayer was patched later - and is free (requires no DLC).

With Advanced Martial Arts mod you can also get these (not sure, maybe they've been removed once they became official content?) Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options and more.

The mod still exists and it is updated to work with TB mod so I guess it can be used. And it does seem to add advanced feats for fighters. I guess if I ever make another high level fighter companion I will get this mod.

 

[Desiderius]

Whats your take for dual wielding?
Most optimised dex dual wielder for hard?
Slayer?weapon option?

Pure rogue or pure fighter. or a Rogue 4/Fighter rest. Or maybe some of the prestige classes.

Whats your take for dual wielding?
Most optimised dex dual wielder for hard?
Slayer?weapon option?

Pure rogue or pure fighter. or a Rogue 4/Fighter rest. Or maybe some of the prestige classes.

Well, clearly a Vivisectionist 16 / Rogue 4 or Vivi 12 / Rogue 8 is superior to pure rogue. Or with a monk dip.

But I guess a Slayer is cool also.

Quad Debilitating (double choices and effect) has got to be worth it for at least Rogue 12.

Edit: Forgot you told me Vivi levels advance Rogue Talents.

Blinding Critical is better than any rogue debilitation and works without flanking.

Blind is pretty great, agreed. But there are other application methods, sometimes superior. Starting with the lowly level 2 Glitterdust spell.
Also Greater Invisibility buff can provide similar benefits vs most enemies.
Plus with Shatter Defenses you gain some of its big benefits semi-permanently.

Debilitation on the other hand stacks with other debuffs....

Glitterdust is a low level spell that lets enemies get a new save every round. Blinding Critical is permanent. Glitterdust is cool early game, but for late game it cannot compare.
Greater Invisibility costs resources and actions. Also has a low duration and it is stopped by Uncanny Dodge, see invisibility, Glitterdust and similar stuff. Blindness is only somewhat foiled by Blind Fighting which is a feat rarely anyone has.
Shatter Defenses is nice but also not as good.
Critical feats also stack with other debuffs , like Rogue debilitating by another character like Nok Nok

I feel like people here have not explored the power of pure fighter. They are pretty good in Pathfinder with feat every level and weapon training and resistances vs fear. My ranged fighter had all feats like ranged ranger and also lot more. He could afford to get GReater weapon feats and Greater Iron Will.
With two weapon fighting you get 7 (or 8? ) attacks without buffs. Your attack is so high you hit with your worst attack. With all the spec and training bonuses that is lots of extra damage.

Agree on fighter being underrated. Don’t agree with the sniping. If you don’t get the power of Double Debilitating I don’t know what to tell you. If you think you’re blowing out the noob you’re sadly deluded.

I love me some Blind, but abilities that rely on a confirmed critical to do anything tend to be win more.

My rogues don’t have any trouble hitting with all their attacks.

 

[Desiderius]

A Bard would be handy. Or at least a Sensei monk. Although I like Dirge of Doom too much to pick Sensei.

+3 for the good guys, -2 for the bad guys. So is that one difficulty level or two?

Depends on stage of the game: 1 early, 2 late
But that's just the part of it. Fun starts when you combine Dirge with Shatter Defenses. Also for major part of the game, Good Hope is the most convenient mass Competence buff.

As Shad said, Good Hope stacks. It’s why Bards are broken and people who don’t use them think I’m a noob because they’re playing a different game. I’m playing Elesh Norn and they’re trying to see how many Holy Strengths they can stack on their Savannah Lion.

Level 11 isn’t late at all. Late you’re giving the team +4 AC/+4 saves.

 

[Desiderius]

Look at the fun you could be having, Arch:

I think the Sneak is from a necklace. Note: the demon has Improved Uncanny Dodge, so no flanking bonuses (-6 AB), but sneak still triggers. I think there's a Shaken down there somewhere.

Harrim stupidly cast Rage so no Haste or Spellstrike, but team still did fine.

 

[Desiderius]

EDIT: This is what fighter is missing in the game to be able to compare to likes of Slayer:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter?/#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training

Actually, most of the PK - compatible feats from Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery, Effortless Dual-Wielding, Fighter’s Tactics) were patched in the game with Slayer. They require second tier of weapon training (lvl 9) and incompatible with Two-Handed Specialist though, who is sexiest of fighter's archetypes.

Armed Bravery is a good bit better than Iron Will, as is Tactics with Shake if Off, though that might be something everyone should pick up because it looks like the radius is 30ft. Seize + Tactics would also be great for a two-handed fighter.

 

[panda]

Yeah, Slayer is such balanced class.
I finished my last game before its release, and currently testing grounds for a new game with mercs in old saves.
While "regular" attacks with minimal buffs looks like this...

Spoiler

... str build runs up to 140+ dmg per strike with good rolls, and i don't even want to talk about crits.

 

[deuxhero]

but honestly why begin game with will o wisps immune to magic missile lol
it's like owlbears with x2 iron will

Removing pre-designed weaknesses from pnp monsters early is pants. Just reinforces Regongar with giant club as answer to everything.

Magic Missile is hardly an Achilles heel for will o wisps. It does low damage to them like everyone else, but that's still low damage. It does 17.5 damage on average (with all missiles) and 25 damage at max without metamagic. That's decent against base ones where they only have 40 HP, but terrible against advanced ones (which is all you fight in this game). The real problem is that Will-o-Wisps in pnp are very defensive monsters with minimal attack power (they explicitly attack by luring characters into traps and ambushes) but have been given an effective attack option. Luckily the aren't actually flying in game, so acid pits and the like work fine on them.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, Slayer is such balanced class.
I finished my last game before its release, and currently testing grounds for a new game with mercs in old saves.
While "regular" attacks with minimal buffs looks like this...

Spoiler

... str build runs up to 140+ dmg per strike with good rolls, and i don't even want to talk about crits.

They do what they do very well, but they’re one-dimensional (in combat, my Amiri Slayer is also my Perception expert). Best O, not much D, no team support (aside from Vanguard, who also gets Uncanny Dodge, BTW, so is probably best Slayer for Dual-Wielding).

Sniper is likely best build with Studied Target facilitating all the - AB abilities to add damage. Both ranged and Slayer want full attacks and ranged gets the most since they need to move less.

 

[Ramnozack]

Anyone have this weird visual/animation bug where if you have the improved unarmed strike perk and are using a sword-type weapon 2-handed the character with the perk uses the two handed animations but awkwardly holds the weapon in one hand? It's not a big deal, but it's kind of annoying.

 

[Desiderius]

And Fighter has +10 attack over rogue at lvl 20. That is a lot... Rogue will not be even hitting stuff with his last attack, fighter will get two attacks with two weapon fighting at that range and still one last attack that will still be +5 over last rogue attack. 9d6 sneak attack means little if you cannot hit enemies.

You can always do a little of both:



Or dual-wield a two-hander:

 

[razvedchiki]

so for my new 2.06 playthrough im gonna use

- turn base mod
- arcana mod
- call of the wild
- closer to tabletop

hard,6 man party probably with 1 merc for tanking (i just cant bother with valerie anymore and i dont want to respec her for rp reasons).