Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

I can't be bothered to read last few pages, so I'm just going to ask:

1. Is MT viable as a main character?
2. If so, using what base classes? Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal sorcerer?

Doesn't sound like the class for you, no.

 

[Desiderius]

Later on it’s nice having Restorations and Breath of Life on tap spontaneously in case they’re needed. Where it’s really nice is having the Evil Outsider/Death Ward/Resist Energy/Delay Poison stuff if you need it but never having to memorize it, so you can fill up your Cleric slots with Hastes and what not or just lots of nukes/Chains/whatever.

Restoration and Breath of Life are two spells that aren't hindered by being cast from a scroll. In-fact, Restoration scrolls don't seem to have the diamond dust included in their cost. You don't have to prepare them, just buy a few scrolls. Since you quickly run out of things other than scrolls and BP to spend money on until the Pitax tournament, this isn't much of an cost.

Of course. Those were examples, but yes scrolls are also good for that purpose. As one can see in the picture, you have a lot of options there that are impractical to get from scrolls unless you're a Scroll Savant and it's still a pain/in some cases impossible to stock up. Spontaneous casting is a real convenience boost.

 

[Luckmann]

1. Is MT viable as a main character?

Yes. Any class is viable as a main character.

2. If so, using what base classes? Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal sorcerer?

Sure, why not. That said, I prefer making Tristian into the Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal sorcerer, because it makes a lot of sense.

That said, be prepared to lag behind in terms of spells and their power, and your spellbooks are going to be a complete and utter clusterfuck.

 

[ArchAngel]

Also game does not have enough quickslots for all those spells. One full caster with access to lvl 9 spells already struggles to find room for all of them.

 

[purpleblob]

What bothered me the most is double up of some spells... (yeah, the spellbook was real clusterfuck)

 

[Luckmann]

Also game does not have enough quickslots for all those spells. One full caster with access to lvl 9 spells already struggles to find room for all of them.

I never use quickslots for spells, which works great for pure classes, but as soon as you multiclass it becomes a mess, because there's no indicators for which spells come from what class, and if you're a sorcerer-based Mystic Theurge, it becomes even worse, because all those extra spells become spells known and jesus fucking christ.

 

[Desiderius]

1. Is MT viable as a main character?

Yes. Any class is viable as a main character.

2. If so, using what base classes? Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal sorcerer?

Sure, why not. That said, I prefer making Tristian into the Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal sorcerer, because it makes a lot of sense.

That said, be prepared to lag behind in terms of spells and their power, and your spellbooks are going to be a complete and utter clusterfuck.

Spellbook is fine - you get it all!

Or close to it. Menus/quickslots take some getting used to.

 

[Desiderius]

Also game does not have enough quickslots for all those spells. One full caster with access to lvl 9 spells already struggles to find room for all of them.

I never use quickslots for spells, which works great for pure classes, but as soon as you multiclass it becomes a mess, because there's no indicators for which spells come from what class, and if you're a sorcerer-based Mystic Theurge, it becomes even worse, because all those extra spells become spells known and jesus fucking christ.

I use quick slots for long-lasting buffs so I can fire them all off quickly at the beginning of the map without thinking about it.

On the side you can do an AoE bar organized by save, with a single target bar next to it.

 

[razvedchiki]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

 

[Desiderius]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Tristian hidden mode is Eldritch Scion MT with his 16 CHR and Scimitar being both the favored weapon of Sarenae and Runic Magebladed on the unique ones.

I’ll hold off on posting that until he gets his wings on current playthrough which just now got through Troll Trouble so you’ll get some relief Gaius.

 

[ArchAngel]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Tristian hidden mode is Eldritch Scion MT with his 16 CHR and Scimitar being both the favored weapon of Sarenae and Runic Magebladed on the unique ones.

I’ll hold off on posting that until he gets his wings on current playthrough which just now got through Troll Trouble so you’ll get some relief Gaius.

Sounds like a character with bad AC considering he cannot wear any armor and he has no monk levels or get AC from that..

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Out of those the Conjurer should work the best as you will have least problems from lack of caster level and getting high level spells later (also this character should let you get lvl 9 and lvl 7 spells from two classes). Conjuration spells ignore SR and by lvl 10 summons last long enough in battle that your weaker caster level will not be as bad. And duration and SR are not a big problem for buffs that are going to fill rest of your slots. And both summons and buffs don't need you to have very high spell DCs so you don't have much problems having both high Int and Wis.
Only bad thing about all conjurers in this game is that buffs don't work on summons which is a shame.

 

[Desiderius]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Tristian hidden mode is Eldritch Scion MT with his 16 CHR and Scimitar being both the favored weapon of Sarenae and Runic Magebladed on the unique ones.

I’ll hold off on posting that until he gets his wings on current playthrough which just now got through Troll Trouble so you’ll get some relief Gaius.

Sounds like a character with bad AC considering he cannot wear any armor and he has no monk levels or get AC from that...

Sounds like a challenge. Good thing Magi stand around casting their Spellstrike spell all day while everyone else gets into combat, then wade in to lower the boom.

You’ll see.

 

[Desiderius]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Tristian hidden mode is Eldritch Scion MT with his 16 CHR and Scimitar being both the favored weapon of Sarenae and Runic Magebladed on the unique ones.

I’ll hold off on posting that until he gets his wings on current playthrough which just now got through Troll Trouble so you’ll get some relief Gaius.

Sounds like a character with bad AC considering he cannot wear any armor and he has no monk levels or get AC from that..

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Out of those the Conjurer should work the best as you will have least problems from lack of caster level and getting high level spells later (also this character should let you get lvl 9 and lvl 7 spells from two classes). Conjuration spells ignore SR and by lvl 10 summons last long enough in battle that your weaker caster level will not be as bad. And duration and SR are not a big problem for buffs that are going to fill rest of your slots. And both summons and buffs don't need you to have very high spell DCs so you don't have much problems having both high Int and Wis.
Only bad thing about all conjurers in this game is that buffs don't work on summons which is a shame.

As if double Smilodon (with Mirror Image too!) isn’t insane, with +4 saves vs. Fae thrown in. Careful not to get too far outside that box.

 

[ArchAngel]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Tristian hidden mode is Eldritch Scion MT with his 16 CHR and Scimitar being both the favored weapon of Sarenae and Runic Magebladed on the unique ones.

I’ll hold off on posting that until he gets his wings on current playthrough which just now got through Troll Trouble so you’ll get some relief Gaius.

Sounds like a character with bad AC considering he cannot wear any armor and he has no monk levels or get AC from that..

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Out of those the Conjurer should work the best as you will have least problems from lack of caster level and getting high level spells later (also this character should let you get lvl 9 and lvl 7 spells from two classes). Conjuration spells ignore SR and by lvl 10 summons last long enough in battle that your weaker caster level will not be as bad. And duration and SR are not a big problem for buffs that are going to fill rest of your slots. And both summons and buffs don't need you to have very high spell DCs so you don't have much problems having both high Int and Wis.
Only bad thing about all conjurers in this game is that buffs don't work on summons which is a shame.

As if double Smilodon (with Mirror Image too!) isn’t insane, with +4 saves vs. Fae thrown in. Careful not to get too far outside that box.

You cannot have double pets. Only ever one. But their levels stack when determining the power of that pet. But with 10 levels in MT that still means a lvl 10 pet (or 14 if you waste a feat on it). Even full power pets are weaker in end game, this lvl 10 (14) pet will be a waste of space.

Sounds like a challenge. Good thing Magi stand around casting their Spellstrike spell all day while everyone else gets into combat, then wade in to lower the boom.

You’ll see.

There is nothing to see. Tristan has bad Strength, Dex and Con. He is not for melee combat. Also MT has wizard BAB so even that works against your melee plan. But this game is abusable and easy enough to make almost any gimped character be able to finish it as you keep proving us with your builds.

 

[ArchAngel]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

 

[Desiderius]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

The Ivory Tower hath handed down his decree without so much as understanding that upon which he doth proclaim.

 

[Desiderius]

The last 50 pages of this thread are literally 3 guys posting the most broken build they can make.

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Tristian hidden mode is Eldritch Scion MT with his 16 CHR and Scimitar being both the favored weapon of Sarenae and Runic Magebladed on the unique ones.

I’ll hold off on posting that until he gets his wings on current playthrough which just now got through Troll Trouble so you’ll get some relief Gaius.

Sounds like a character with bad AC considering he cannot wear any armor and he has no monk levels or get AC from that..

No, we're discussing the possible, role-play appropriate paths for a Mystic Theurge

So far I've gotten:
- The Fey Theurge - Sylvan Sorcerer/Feyspeaker/MT
- The Celestial Theurge - Empyrean Sorcerer/Ecclesitheurge/MT
- The Conjurer - Sloth Mage/Herald Caller/MT

Out of those the Conjurer should work the best as you will have least problems from lack of caster level and getting high level spells later (also this character should let you get lvl 9 and lvl 7 spells from two classes). Conjuration spells ignore SR and by lvl 10 summons last long enough in battle that your weaker caster level will not be as bad. And duration and SR are not a big problem for buffs that are going to fill rest of your slots. And both summons and buffs don't need you to have very high spell DCs so you don't have much problems having both high Int and Wis.
Only bad thing about all conjurers in this game is that buffs don't work on summons which is a shame.

As if double Smilodon (with Mirror Image too!) isn’t insane, with +4 saves vs. Fae thrown in. Careful not to get too far outside that box.

You cannot have double pets. Only ever one. But their levels stack when determining the power of that pet. But with 10 levels in MT that still means a lvl 10 pet (or 14 if you waste a feat on it). Even full power pets are weaker in end game, this lvl 10 (14) pet will be a waste of space.

Sounds like a challenge. Good thing Magi stand around casting their Spellstrike spell all day while everyone else gets into combat, then wade in to lower the boom.

You’ll see.

There is nothing to see. Tristan has bad Strength, Dex and Con. He is not for melee combat. Also MT has wizard BAB so even that works against your melee plan. But this game is abusable and easy enough to make almost any gimped character be able to finish it as you keep proving us with your builds.

The second Smilodon is the MC himself. See the screenshot above of MT* Val tearing up unfair alongside her pet. That was before I figured out you can combine the Enlarge spell line (but not Animal Growth) with Wild Shape.

Tristian of course will make heavy use of those same spells without needing to Wild Shape at all. STR is easy to get and he’s still got three blocks of 3/4 before he hits MT. He’ll be fine. Eventually.

Smilodons don’t care about BAB.

My builds are the opposite of gimped. But keep on telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

* - obviously MT is only a 3 or 4 lvl splash with pet. Still enough for two levels of Shared Spells.

 

[Desiderius]

It has been decided, Citizens. Thank you for all of your contributions and advice.

Male - Musetouched - Sloth Mage/Feyspeaker/Mystic Theurge - True Neutral - Starting 01.10.2019.

Only one question remains - Eldritch Arcana, or no? I read somewhere that the latest patch made Metamagic not work in conjunction with the mod.

The Sorc is the one with the pet, not the Mage BTW.

 

[Gord]

Man, the House at the End of Time sure is some annoying shit...

I have ways of dealing with all the mobs there, but come on, just cloning the map and stashing a large group of the most annoying enemies in the entire fucking game into every other room is just getting old fast.

 

[Ramnozack]

Is the new Eldritch Arcana Updated mod worth using over the original Eldritch Arcana 0.95 mod?

 

[Desiderius]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

 

[Daidre]

Is the new Eldritch Arcana Updated mod worth using over the original Eldritch Arcana 0.95 mod?

I would not risk using old one. With patches, lot of feat selection screens with submenus became broken, so issues start at the point of character creation.

 

[Trashos]

I need a quick rundown. What does one buy to get the full *gameplay* package? Does the Enhanced Edition include everything or are there more dlc after that?

 

[ArchAngel]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

Really does not matter when in this game there are plenty of places and time to rest. That would only be true if resting was severely limited. MT is more useful in PnP where resting is usually much more limited and trying to rest in a dungeon is calling your DM to murder your party.

And why would you go melee with a guy with bad BAB and bad Dex/Strength, he can hardly hit and then to deliver a spell that needs enemy to fail a save so it does any good damage.. for that spell you need to be fully focusing on Wisdom and Spell Focus feats, not melee..

 

[Daidre]

What new version of Eldritch Arcana? Could anyone post a link?

It is available on Nexus. I used this one for a quite some time.
https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/129