Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Trashos]

OK, I have started playing this. I will be posting some constructive criticism here. I have no prior experience with Pathfinder, and my background is basically BG1&2 (no experience with more recent DnD). Right now I am at the trading post, near the start of the game.

I imagine that it is no fault of the development team (it's probably Pathfinder's fault), but for a Pathfinder newcomer things are quite overwhelming at the beginning. Party-wide, I almost immediately got access to numerous abilities, spells and what not, and there is no way to digest all that as I come across it. Not that I need to, I still haven't lost any fight playing on Challenging, but still I have only used one spell/ability for all these fights, and I feel like I am not experiencing the game as I should be doing.

So my first point is that I wish the system started slower. I see no reason why Pathfinder starts with all these abilties from Level 0, they will just drive newcomers off. Note that I generally welcome complex systems, but I do expect a well thought-out learning curve.

My 2nd point is more personal, maybe, and I have expressed relative disagreements here before. I hate time limits, and the game seems to have plenty. I am bringing this up again, because it ties in with my 1st point. There is so much to read, research, and experiment with for me, that time limits is the last thing I needed. It is a bit like what BG1 had done with time not stopping while the player was in Inventory. Very bad idea! When I first played BG1 I was trying to figure out what every piece of gear was doing, all the while in-game days and nights passed. It was a terrible experience, but this mistake was corrected in BG2. I am sorry to see that Kingmaker has made a similar mistake.

My criticism comes from a good place, and I hope it is taken well. More to come.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Don't worry, the time limit won't be an issue as long as you know exactly where to go in what order and how to do it as quickly as possible.

 

[purpleblob]

Pause first then read or sort inventory? How hard is that? And the time doesn't pass that quick in the local map.

 

[Shadenuat]

"The film needs to be slower and duller at the start so that the viewers who walked into the wrong theatre have time to leave before the main action starts."

 

[Desiderius]

Funny thing is - Valerie's personal quest fight with that paladin that gives her the scar is much harder with her original build rather then if you turn her into a monk. The guy sunders her armor and takes away all that sweet armor ac. Of course winning that fight is not required and no one else does it - so the tower shield specialist can work too. I just... don't like tower shields I guess.

12 and lower is shit, 14 bad, 16 mediocre, 18 good.

I mean... that's a difference of 3 AC between "Shit" and "good". So depending on how over the top the build is - it might not make any difference.

He has no idea what he's talking about. You hit 30 by midgame.

 

[Desiderius]

Don't worry, the time limit won't be an issue as long as you know exactly where to go in what order and how to do it as quickly as possible.

Unless you're in the market for a Dueling Sword that is only +1 better than the one the game gives you at the start you've got all the time in the world.

 

[Desiderius]

Or you can go with Val Fighter 1/Kinetic Knight 19 and she will both be an awesome tank and do lots of damage and her attack with be a touch attack. And Con is her greatest stat and Con is main stat for KK.

Edit: also you can have defensive fighting on all the time when using your touch attack weapon because you cannot miss with it vs 90% of enemies.

I've now found three great Val builds. This one is number three, but I went with Earth for Whirlwind Trip.

 

[Trashos]

I do pause before going to Inventory. My point is more general. PK's time limits do not serve newcomers. I did mention that I generally ABHORE time limits in RPGs (and this is exactly why I am only trying PK now), so make of that what you will.

"The film needs to be slower and duller at the start so that the viewers who walked into the wrong theatre have time to leave before the main action starts."

Slower does not necessarily mean duller. I didn't find the start of BG1 dull. But the question is, does Pathfinder want new people to try Pathfinder or not? If they do, they have to ease newcomers in.

Time limits aside (we are talking about starting complexity now), I am not the wrong audience. I am exactly the audience that Pathfinder should be trying to lure in. I am someone once experienced with some version of DnD, disconnected now, thinking about trying Pathfinder.

 

[Desiderius]

I disagree that the companions are shit, with the exception of Amiri and possibly Harrim, altho at least Harrim can be a druid with a strong pet.
For the rest I always hear this or that companion is useless but I just don't see it.
What's the problem with Jubilost or 32point buy optimized magic negro ranger? Valerie cha monk 1->bard -> DD , put the level 4 point into CHA and she has CHA16 just like Linzi, get +4 STR from DD, +2 STR and +2CHA from her quest. She's a better Bard than Linzi.
Make Jaethal a cleric, selective channel, spam negative energy AoE, summern skelingtons, equip this cloak for necromancy spells. Nok-Nok rogue 8/vivi 12 is absolutely OK for most of the game (tho shit will saves hurt a bit come endgame). The kinetic sisters are OP as fuck if you build them right, especially the fire one. The orc is a powerful char but I don't like the micro required.
On unfair it's helpful to enlist 1 dedicated conjurer (elf chick being a caster level behind and not having the focus feats just doesn't cut it early on) and 1 guy who can tank, i.e. high AC/mirror image, can be the main char or another merc.

Ok to be fair the companions you find later are all pretty decent. Not that it matters because at that point you're rolling in wealth like a party twice your level would have. The starting ones are all shit though. WTF am I going to do with a Valerie that is fighter 1 monk 1 bard 3 with 14 cha and no dex? I don't need them to be perfectly optimized gods but for fucks sake don't give me a bunch of characters with literally nothing exceptional about them. You could throw in a fighter with 12 across the board with the first feat being skill focus use magic device and he'd be about as useful as any of the starting members. I got better characters out of literally randomly generating them in Incursion.

Literally every suggestion you made was 'ignore their first class entirely and use them like a character with -1 level and mediocre stats, it isn't a big deal at level 20.' Yeah no shit. You don't start the game at level 20 though. There's a difference between optimal play and being the guy who took a level of sorceror and then wizard for the rest of his career with 16 str.

You don't have to ignore the first level to find great builds for every companion. Keep playing and playing around with them. You'll see.

BTW, Val starts with 15 CHR, picks up another 2 for free later, and gets a sword that gives her another 6.

 

[Desiderius]

I do pause before going to Inventory. My point is more general. PK's time limits do not serve newcomers. I did mention that I generally ABHORE time limits in RPGs (and this is exactly why I am only trying PK now), so make of that what you will.

"The film needs to be slower and duller at the start so that the viewers who walked into the wrong theatre have time to leave before the main action starts."

Slower does not necessarily mean duller. I didn't find the start of BG1 dull. But the question is, does Pathfinder want new people to try Pathfinder or not? If they do, they have to ease newcomers in.

Time limits aside (we are talking about starting complexity now), I am not the wrong audience. I am exactly the audience that Pathfinder should be trying to lure in. I am someone once experienced with some version of DnD, disconnected now, thinking about trying Pathfinder.

Then chill out and enjoy failing and learning and improving. It's a little rogue-like in that sense.

 

[Desiderius]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

Really does not matter when in this game there are plenty of places and time to rest. That would only be true if resting was severely limited. MT is more useful in PnP where resting is usually much more limited and trying to rest in a dungeon is calling your DM to murder your party.

And why would you go melee with a guy with bad BAB and bad Dex/Strength, he can hardly hit and then to deliver a spell that needs enemy to fail a save so it does any good damage.. for that spell you need to be fully focusing on Wisdom and Spell Focus feats, not melee..

Time is money. Resting ultimately costs you items which are gated behind kingdom ranks. Also lets you keep up food buffs in dungeons.

The difference between 40 STR and 34 STR is a lot smaller than the difference between 16 and 10. STR is by far the easiest stat to get. He has 16 base CHR which is the relevant stat for Spellstrikes. You play most of the game as a conventional Cleric with Mirror Image/Shield and a bigger spell book then move in once he gets his Wings and all the Mental Perfection items. He already has Greater Spell Focus Evocation for Archon’s Aura and his Fire spells.

If it works, I’ll post screenshots. If it doesn’t I’ll admit I’m wrong. It will be a couple weeks or so.

What? You misspelled that. You wanted to write a gimped cleric.

Here's your gimped Cleric:

Three whole damage, a whiff, and eating an Owlbear paw. Plus caught playing on Challenging. How embarrassing.

 

[Desiderius]

I generally prefer my clerics to have a domain that fixes shit rolls so I can effectively take 10 instead of having my trickery check fail because I rolled a 2. Or the Travel so they don't cut our party's speed by a third. Or both, because I'm a terrible munchkin for wanting to move at basic human movement speed and open chests without saving and reloading the game. Harrim, Valerie, and Jaethal all can't do any of that shit. Jaethal can't even heal the fucking party, or get healed if you have a real cleric like Tristian who can at least heal the party up and isn't permanently slowed.

Is there some bug I'm not aware of regarding Monk AC bonus? How the fuck is that tiny AC bonus going to be a good tradeoff for not having armor or shield? Especially on a character with shit dex?

Maybe play the game first before expounding on it? Monk robes + sky high stats + bracers + a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. Search for Haplo's builds.

If you're playing well your Trickery will be naturally above the required level so you don't have to worry about rolls by the time it matters with a couple exceptions that can be solved with smart buffing. Touch of Law is nice but not a reason to MC a Cleric or pass on Tristian/Harrim. Tristian has Touch of Good which is almost always flat out better. If you boost Harrim's initiative he can mess some people up with Touch of Chaos:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1630790987581598689/

plus he has +4AC vs Giants and +4 saves vs spells and spell-like abilities. Destruction domain second ability is pretty nice too if you're getting a lot of attacks in, which you should be.

 

[Yosharian]

I was thinking of diving back into this then I see that the Kingdom Resolution mod has been abandoned and the latest patches have broken its functionality.

Oh well.

 

[ArchAngel]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

Really does not matter when in this game there are plenty of places and time to rest. That would only be true if resting was severely limited. MT is more useful in PnP where resting is usually much more limited and trying to rest in a dungeon is calling your DM to murder your party.

And why would you go melee with a guy with bad BAB and bad Dex/Strength, he can hardly hit and then to deliver a spell that needs enemy to fail a save so it does any good damage.. for that spell you need to be fully focusing on Wisdom and Spell Focus feats, not melee..

Time is money. Resting ultimately costs you items which are gated behind kingdom ranks. Also lets you keep up food buffs in dungeons.

The difference between 40 STR and 34 STR is a lot smaller than the difference between 16 and 10. STR is by far the easiest stat to get. He has 16 base CHR which is the relevant stat for Spellstrikes. You play most of the game as a conventional Cleric with Mirror Image/Shield and a bigger spell book then move in once he gets his Wings and all the Mental Perfection items. He already has Greater Spell Focus Evocation for Archon’s Aura and his Fire spells.

If it works, I’ll post screenshots. If it doesn’t I’ll admit I’m wrong. It will be a couple weeks or so.

What? You misspelled that. You wanted to write a gimped cleric.

Here's your gimped Cleric:

View attachment 11468

Three whole damage, a whiff, and eating an Owlbear paw. Plus caught playing on Challenging. How embarrassing.

What is this? Accepting your version of melee Tristian sucks or is this basic Tristian that you send into melee for some funny reason when he has a free ability that buffs allies that you should be using on your best damage dealer if you don't want to use non cantrip spells.

 

[Desiderius]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

Really does not matter when in this game there are plenty of places and time to rest. That would only be true if resting was severely limited. MT is more useful in PnP where resting is usually much more limited and trying to rest in a dungeon is calling your DM to murder your party.

And why would you go melee with a guy with bad BAB and bad Dex/Strength, he can hardly hit and then to deliver a spell that needs enemy to fail a save so it does any good damage.. for that spell you need to be fully focusing on Wisdom and Spell Focus feats, not melee..

Time is money. Resting ultimately costs you items which are gated behind kingdom ranks. Also lets you keep up food buffs in dungeons.

The difference between 40 STR and 34 STR is a lot smaller than the difference between 16 and 10. STR is by far the easiest stat to get. He has 16 base CHR which is the relevant stat for Spellstrikes. You play most of the game as a conventional Cleric with Mirror Image/Shield and a bigger spell book then move in once he gets his Wings and all the Mental Perfection items. He already has Greater Spell Focus Evocation for Archon’s Aura and his Fire spells.

If it works, I’ll post screenshots. If it doesn’t I’ll admit I’m wrong. It will be a couple weeks or so.

What? You misspelled that. You wanted to write a gimped cleric.

Here's your gimped Cleric:

View attachment 11468

Three whole damage, a whiff, and eating an Owlbear paw. Plus caught playing on Challenging. How embarrassing.

What is this? Accepting your version of melee Tristian sucks or is this basic Tristian that you send into melee for some funny reason when he has a free ability that buffs allies that you should be using on your best damage dealer if you don't want to use non cantrip spells.

If you played the game you’d know what it is. You don’t have control of him for this fight.

Outed.

What it is is flat busted MC at lvl 10. And yeah, it’s also a joke since Tristian was naked and not close to the level where he’ll be in melee yet (he’s riding the bench until he finishes his companion quest).

So you suggest using him to give one toon +2/+2 for a round (at touch range to boot)? That’s some piss poor action economy if I’ve ever seen it.

I’m sure you’re a reasonably competent DM for your local PnP group. Doesn’t mean you know jack shit about this game and when you go ignorantly swinging your dick around about it it just makes you look like a -2 SD Cael.

 

[Efe]

its clear you dont control him at that fight even to a complete stranger from screenshot alone. what do you think you are "outing"?
dont you end upw ith abysmal hit chance when you use spellstrike with tristian?
either way, how goes the testing?

 

[Gord]

So, I finally finished it.

Spoiler

I haven't (yet) played the "secret" ending, confronting the lantern king. Might still do that, but the last chapter somewhat turned into a slog for me with all the trash-mobs, so I'm a bit burned out currently.

Playthrough took me super long for some reason, Steam says 240+ hours for it.
No idea why, but it kinda explains almost playing on it for one year (albeit with one or two longer breaks).

Overall it was good and very recommendable for any fan of RtwP/DnD-RPGs, although it does have its flaws.
Here's my personal top highlights and issues:
+ Implementation of rules/classes/etc - great Buildporn for anyone interested in playing around with builds
+ Engine/technical implementation (after numerous patches) - should be a good base to build upon with future titles
+ lots to do (varying quality, but some good stuff)

- over-reliance on inflated numbers - I can understand their reasoning, but I'm not a huge fan of it
- trash mobs, making parts of the game turn into a slog
- kingdom mechanics feel tacked on and are a bit obscure (got better in EE)

Quality declined a bit around chapter 3 or 4, imo. It's interesting how they emphasized time-limited and mutually exclusive quests so much in chapter one, while they became more of an afterthought later (in case of timed stuff because it was usually quite easy to finish that stuff up at the beginning of a chapter and then spend the plentiful remaining time exploring or upgrading the kingdom).

Anyway, I'd like to play it again with a different build eventually, but definitely don't want to spend that much time on it again. Or maybe I'll just get the BtSL DLC for that purpose.

 

[ArchAngel]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

Really does not matter when in this game there are plenty of places and time to rest. That would only be true if resting was severely limited. MT is more useful in PnP where resting is usually much more limited and trying to rest in a dungeon is calling your DM to murder your party.

And why would you go melee with a guy with bad BAB and bad Dex/Strength, he can hardly hit and then to deliver a spell that needs enemy to fail a save so it does any good damage.. for that spell you need to be fully focusing on Wisdom and Spell Focus feats, not melee..

Time is money. Resting ultimately costs you items which are gated behind kingdom ranks. Also lets you keep up food buffs in dungeons.

The difference between 40 STR and 34 STR is a lot smaller than the difference between 16 and 10. STR is by far the easiest stat to get. He has 16 base CHR which is the relevant stat for Spellstrikes. You play most of the game as a conventional Cleric with Mirror Image/Shield and a bigger spell book then move in once he gets his Wings and all the Mental Perfection items. He already has Greater Spell Focus Evocation for Archon’s Aura and his Fire spells.

If it works, I’ll post screenshots. If it doesn’t I’ll admit I’m wrong. It will be a couple weeks or so.

What? You misspelled that. You wanted to write a gimped cleric.

Here's your gimped Cleric:

View attachment 11468

Three whole damage, a whiff, and eating an Owlbear paw. Plus caught playing on Challenging. How embarrassing.

What is this? Accepting your version of melee Tristian sucks or is this basic Tristian that you send into melee for some funny reason when he has a free ability that buffs allies that you should be using on your best damage dealer if you don't want to use non cantrip spells.

If you played the game you’d know what it is. You don’t have control of him for this fight.

Outed.

What it is is flat busted MC at lvl 10. And yeah, it’s also a joke since Tristian was naked and not close to the level where he’ll be in melee yet (he’s riding the bench until he finishes his companion quest).

So you suggest using him to give one toon +2/+2 for a round (at touch range to boot)? That’s some piss poor action economy if I’ve ever seen it.

I’m sure you’re a reasonably competent DM for your local PnP group. Doesn’t mean you know jack shit about this game and when you go ignorantly swinging your dick around about it it just makes you look like a -2 SD Cael.

I didn't look at the fight that closely, I only checked your combat log numbers and that is only thing I cared about. Not that you mention it, yea this is the after effects of the operation. Guards give it away more than anything.

That bonus goes up with his level if I remember correctly (or maybe that is the other one that you got limited uses of). But in my one run where I used him extensively when I didn't want to waste his spells or use him as a useless melee or ranged attacker I would use that boost. +2 is lots more bonus damage to your main damage dealer than 3 damage with a scimitar that cannot hit most enemies anyways. For many fights you don't need him casting spells, his pre fight buffs are doing the job already and this small boost stacks with other buffs.

What does my PnP experience have to do with this now? I never used it except to correlate it with some of the design decision in this game because there it is does matter a little. After all Owlcat did play a lot of PnP and specifically this module during the time they worked on this game, I am sure they used lot of that PnP experience when making design decisions.

 

[ArchAngel]

So, I finally finished it.

Spoiler

I haven't (yet) played the "secret" ending, confronting the lantern king. Might still do that, but the last chapter somewhat turned into a slog for me with all the trash-mobs, so I'm a bit burned out currently.

Playthrough took me super long for some reason, Steam says 240+ hours for it.
No idea why, but it kinda explains almost playing on it for one year (albeit with one or two longer breaks).

Overall it was good and very recommendable for any fan of RtwP/DnD-RPGs, although it does have its flaws.
Here's my personal top highlights and issues:
+ Implementation of rules/classes/etc - great Buildporn for anyone interested in playing around with builds
+ Engine/technical implementation (after numerous patches) - should be a good base to build upon with future titles
+ lots to do (varying quality, but some good stuff)

- over-reliance on inflated numbers - I can understand their reasoning, but I'm not a huge fan of it
- trash mobs, making parts of the game turn into a slog
- kingdom mechanics feel tacked on and are a bit obscure (got better in EE)

Quality declined a bit around chapter 3 or 4, imo. It's interesting how they emphasized time-limited and mutually exclusive quests so much in chapter one, while they became more of an afterthought later (in case of timed stuff because it was usually quite easy to finish that stuff up at the beginning of a chapter and then spend the plentiful remaining time exploring or upgrading the kingdom).

Anyway, I'd like to play it again with a different build eventually, but definitely don't want to spend that much time on it again. Or maybe I'll just get the BtSL DLC for that purpose.

If the game was 3 chapters, each the size and quality of Chapter 1 this would have been without any doubt best RPG ever.

Maybe they learn this lesson for their next game and do something like that, they did admit they made this game too big and too ambitious.

 

[Zumbabul]

great Buildporn for anyone interested in playing around with builds

These words are perfect. They should be placed at steam store page.

 

[Desiderius]

its clear you dont control him at that fight even to a complete stranger from screenshot alone. what do you think you are "outing"?
dont you end upw ith abysmal hit chance when you use spellstrike with tristian?
either way, how goes the testing?

It’s the only fight in the game where you’re fighting solo and you do it every play through. He’s not a stranger, he’s been sniping at my comments for months.

I’m not planning to use Spellstrike until he finishes his companion quest (around Pitax). Right now he’s a 7th level Cleric with Shield, Image, Retreat, Mage Armor, and Martial Proficiency so he can fight Enlarged with a STR belt, Glaive/Bane Weapon and Greater Spell Focus Evocation on his Archon’s Aura and occasional Fireball.

I’m mostly on Harrim/no Cleric at this point in the game so no biggie, but he does fine. Build is focused on Pitax and after. With Frightful et. al. to hit shouldn’t be a problem, but we’ll see when I get there.

MC Slayer is nuts.

 

[ArchAngel]

its clear you dont control him at that fight even to a complete stranger from screenshot alone. what do you think you are "outing"?
dont you end upw ith abysmal hit chance when you use spellstrike with tristian?
either way, how goes the testing?

It’s the only fight in the game where you’re fighting solo and you do it every play through. He’s not a stranger, he’s been sniping at my comments for months.

I’m not planning to use Spellstrike until he finishes his companion quest (around Pitax). Right now he’s a 7th level Cleric with Shield, Image, Retreat, Mage Armor, and Martial Proficiency so he can fight Enlarged with a STR belt, Glaive/Bane Weapon and Greater Spell Focus Evocation on his Archon’s Aura and occasional Fireball.

I’m mostly on Harrim/no Cleric at this point in the game so no biggie, but he does fine. Build is focused on Pitax and after. With Frightful et. al. to hit shouldn’t be a problem, but we’ll see when I get there.

MC Slayer is nuts.

Are you sure?
Did you just out yourself?

 

[Desiderius]

its clear you dont control him at that fight even to a complete stranger from screenshot alone. what do you think you are "outing"?
dont you end upw ith abysmal hit chance when you use spellstrike with tristian?
either way, how goes the testing?

It’s the only fight in the game where you’re fighting solo and you do it every play through. He’s not a stranger, he’s been sniping at my comments for months.

I’m not planning to use Spellstrike until he finishes his companion quest (around Pitax). Right now he’s a 7th level Cleric with Shield, Image, Retreat, Mage Armor, and Martial Proficiency so he can fight Enlarged with a STR belt, Glaive/Bane Weapon and Greater Spell Focus Evocation on his Archon’s Aura and occasional Fireball.

I’m mostly on Harrim/no Cleric at this point in the game so no biggie, but he does fine. Build is focused on Pitax and after. With Frightful et. al. to hit shouldn’t be a problem, but we’ll see when I get there.

MC Slayer is nuts.

Are you sure?
Did you just out yourself?

You can fight the Nymph quest if you're a big man like Archangel. I prefer to just sneak out.

Let's just say it's the only time you're fighting alongside Jhod and Bartholomew against an Owlbear in a prison.

 

[Desiderius]

MT was a barely useful prestige in D&D 3.5 where classes didn't have class features. In Pathfinder you lose a lot of class features in addition to caster levels when going MT. It is not a good choice for any build. Most pure casters will be better than a MT. And something like a Scroll Savant is better than any MT you can come up with.

There are several classes without much in the way of class features to lose and through much of the game there are more rounds between rests than there are spells in a single spellbook.

There is also the matter of getting more useful touch spells into the Magus spell book* and spontaneously casting whole spellbooks.

* - you can Spellstrike Slay Living with Tristian, for example

Ho hum, another day of negative theorycrafting with the old farts at RPG Codex.

Really does not matter when in this game there are plenty of places and time to rest. That would only be true if resting was severely limited. MT is more useful in PnP where resting is usually much more limited and trying to rest in a dungeon is calling your DM to murder your party.

And why would you go melee with a guy with bad BAB and bad Dex/Strength, he can hardly hit and then to deliver a spell that needs enemy to fail a save so it does any good damage.. for that spell you need to be fully focusing on Wisdom and Spell Focus feats, not melee..

Time is money. Resting ultimately costs you items which are gated behind kingdom ranks. Also lets you keep up food buffs in dungeons.

The difference between 40 STR and 34 STR is a lot smaller than the difference between 16 and 10. STR is by far the easiest stat to get. He has 16 base CHR which is the relevant stat for Spellstrikes. You play most of the game as a conventional Cleric with Mirror Image/Shield and a bigger spell book then move in once he gets his Wings and all the Mental Perfection items. He already has Greater Spell Focus Evocation for Archon’s Aura and his Fire spells.

If it works, I’ll post screenshots. If it doesn’t I’ll admit I’m wrong. It will be a couple weeks or so.

What? You misspelled that. You wanted to write a gimped cleric.

Here's your gimped Cleric:

View attachment 11468

Three whole damage, a whiff, and eating an Owlbear paw. Plus caught playing on Challenging. How embarrassing.

What is this? Accepting your version of melee Tristian sucks or is this basic Tristian that you send into melee for some funny reason when he has a free ability that buffs allies that you should be using on your best damage dealer if you don't want to use non cantrip spells.

If you played the game you’d know what it is. You don’t have control of him for this fight.

Outed.

What it is is flat busted MC at lvl 10. And yeah, it’s also a joke since Tristian was naked and not close to the level where he’ll be in melee yet (he’s riding the bench until he finishes his companion quest).

So you suggest using him to give one toon +2/+2 for a round (at touch range to boot)? That’s some piss poor action economy if I’ve ever seen it.

I’m sure you’re a reasonably competent DM for your local PnP group. Doesn’t mean you know jack shit about this game and when you go ignorantly swinging your dick around about it it just makes you look like a -2 SD Cael.

I didn't look at the fight that closely, I only checked your combat log numbers and that is only thing I cared about. Not that you mention it, yea this is the after effects of the operation. Guards give it away more than anything.

That bonus goes up with his level if I remember correctly (or maybe that is the other one that you got limited uses of). But in my one run where I used him extensively when I didn't want to waste his spells or use him as a useless melee or ranged attacker I would use that boost. +2 is lots more bonus damage to your main damage dealer than 3 damage with a scimitar that cannot hit most enemies anyways. For many fights you don't need him casting spells, his pre fight buffs are doing the job already and this small boost stacks with other buffs.

What does my PnP experience have to do with this now? I never used it except to correlate it with some of the design decision in this game because there it is does matter a little. After all Owlcat did play a lot of PnP and specifically this module during the time they worked on this game, I am sure they used lot of that PnP experience when making design decisions.

Because all your comments are absolutely valid and I'd be the clown if this were PnP. It's not. If I played the PnP and loved it I'd be disappointed in how inflated everything is and how different that makes the experience than the PnP. I wouldn't take it out on some dude who'd doing well on the cRPG version and enjoying it.

The bonus that goes up is Touch of Good and it has limited uses, but still a lot and it is awesome and the main thing I'm giving up for MT (I've still got 7 levels of Cleric so it's not a total waste, same with channeling). You need Tristian to be near the front lines for Archon's Aura to hit most of the bad guys so massaging Ekun's balls every turn is a poor strategy, even if he needed the help which he doesn't. Even as a pure Cleric Tristian's much better whacking away with a reach weapon and Outflank by midgame. He's doing three damage here because he's naked, unbuffed, and five levels away from seriously using that Scimitar in his hand.

 

[Desiderius]

I was thinking of diving back into this then I see that the Kingdom Resolution mod has been abandoned and the latest patches have broken its functionality.

Oh well.

Probably because it's no longer needed.