Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Lacrymas]

Warrior women are western archetypes, though. A lot of women are goddesses of war and warriors themselves (Athena, Enyo, Andrasta, Artemis, Morrigan, Bellona etc.). There are a lot of women warriors in Greek mythology, like Atalanta, Hippolyta, Panthesilea, along with the amazons. Celtic and Nordic mythology is full of such examples as well. And this isn't counting all the other continents. They are a classic archetype, but much like the Oracle for example, you don't see oracles in every story ever and you don't see women warriors in every story ever, that is ok. Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing that can't be justified by invoking the "classic archetypes".

Why doesn't that angle about Valerie cut it?

 

[Pink Eye]

Well, here it is then.

- I can see there is character development to come, but still 2 very important companions (Val and Amiri) start as SJW archetypes. Even if they somehow mature (as I would put it) during the course of the game, it is clear that they will be remembered as the archetypes they represent. These are not interesting archetypes to me, and probably to a lot of other gamers who think like me (mild conservatives, let's say, who wouldn't even be considered conservatives 10 years ago).

- In games like this, it is always very important to get the tanking character right. All DAO players remember Alistair, all PoE players remember Eder. Valerie will also be remembered, but unfortunately she is not up to par. The concept behind her is very niche. And, to me, uninteresting. She is not the kind of woman I would hang out with. As a matter of fact, none of the female companions are the kind of women I would hang out with.

- I am more or less forced to use a party where the strong physical fighters are female (Val, Amiri, Jaethal), and the healers are male (Tristian, Harrim). It is not the kind of party I wanted to adventure with, I wanted it the other way around. Or, at least, mix it up some more. Also, at the beginning of the game I was forced to have an all female party (my character aside) with Val, Amiri and Linzi. Wth?!

- I am not saying that the game companions are attacking my sensibilities, because they are not. But that is a very low bar for this game, which we shouldn't even be considering.

- On the bright side, Jubilost is fun, done well, and probably the most memorable of the lot. The intelligent smartass archetype. I have not met Nok-Nok yet.

All in all, I find the companions disappointing. Even more so as compared to the general level of the writing (concepts included) in the game.

>I can see there is character development to come
There is, and for what's worth they DO get better as the games on. During the Kingdom management, the companions act more mature. However, in the main game they ARE lacking. I agree.

>all PoE players remember Eder
I loved Eder. A down to earth scruffy fellow. I hate how they cucked him in Deadfire....

>As a matter of fact, none of the female companions are the kind of women I would hang out with
Yes. I can see your coming from. However I disagree. Both Jaethal and Valerie are my two favorite companions in the game!

>I am more or less forced to use a party where the strong physical fighters are female (Val, Amiri, Jaethal), and the healers are male (Tristian, Harrim)
Meh. Harrim is not really JUST a healer. He is more of a buffer. Honestly, it all depends on how you built him over the course of the game. In my last Unfair playthrough I made him a MT, gave him a reach weapon, and gave him outflank and combat reflexes. It was amazing.

>Also, at the beginning of the game I was forced to have an all female party (my character aside) with Val, Amiri and Linzi. Wth?!
You don't have to have an all female party. It depends on the choices you made in prologue area. For example, if you pick lawful choices while speaking to Jamandi Aldori Valerie will notice you. If you pick neutral evil while speaking to Jamandi Aldori, Jaehtal will notice you.

>On the bright side, Jubilost is fun, done well, and probably the most memorable of the lot
Ya. He's great.

>All in all, I find the companions disappointing.
Sorry to hear.

 

[Desiderius]

Reg could've been alright if he was not so gay. Jubilost meh, did not cared much for his ark and quests.
And yeah they all start SJW like but quest show how they are fucked up inside.
Valerie conflict is that she always was beautiful and tried to downplay it, but when she lost it due to scar she realized that in fact she enjoys it and starts behaving like an ass. Or something like that.

Getting warmer.

They're all send-ups of woke bullshit. Mary Sue, Magic Negro, Poz shit, Pajama Boy, etc... They're Russkies so they throw in the Novelty-seeking, Good-with-money Jew for good measure.

Bruh they are not pozzed except for tristan, regoctavia. Mary sue? Hm is that about Val or negro? Never liked negro on second play-trough he just left me because I sided with trolls.

Val, Amiri, Tristian, and Regongar start out Pozzed one way or another. Each story arc is at least partially about finding their way out of it (i.e. reconnecting with one's genetic chain of being/family/tribe/God et. al.) Even Magic Negro man finds salvation in re-establishing his House, like Job or Odysseus.

 

[Desiderius]

Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing

You can fuck right on off with that shit. This isn't some CNN clownshow.

Athena is literally a figment of Zeus' imagination. That's where most of this female warrior BS comes from - male fantasies.

 

[Trashos]

Meh. Harrim is not really JUST a healer.

That's not the point. The point is that if you want to build a healer, your main options are Tristian and (secondarily) Harrim. Two dudes.

You don't have to have an all female party. It depends on the choices you made in prologue area. For example, if you pick lawful choices while speaking to Jamandi Aldori Valerie will notice you. If you pick neutral evil while speaking to Jamandi Aldori, Jaehtal will notice you.

I know, but you missed my point. The game is frontloaded with female companions, and backloaded with male ones (all the Act 2 companions are male!). I am not attributing this to some agenda. But it is very weird decision making by the developers, and I do not think it works well.

We agree on a lot of the rest that you wrote.

 

[Desiderius]

Meh. Harrim is not really JUST a healer.

That's not the point. The point is that if you want to build a healer, your main options are Tristian and (secondarily) Harrim. Two dudes.

You don't have to have an all female party. It depends on the choices you made in prologue area. For example, if you pick lawful choices while speaking to Jamandi Aldori Valerie will notice you. If you pick neutral evil while speaking to Jamandi Aldori, Jaehtal will notice you.

I know, but you missed my point. The game is frontloaded with female companions, and backloaded with male ones (all the Act 2 companions are male!). I am not attributing this to some agenda. But it is very weird decision making by the developers, and I do not think it works well.

We agree on a lot of the rest that you wrote.

I too would have preferred a decent male lead, but they went with parody instead. It’s a time that merits it.

Val and Amiri aren’t really cut out for a lead role in any case. You can make them that but they’re better at other things. My guess is they’re leaving room for the (overwhelmingly straight male) MC to play that role.

 

[Delterius]

If anything the real tragedy is this tendency of taking the healer job of a doctor, a priest and so on as a 'female' role.

I blame the weaboo healsluts and their animu cultists.

 

[Lacrymas]

Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing

You can fuck right on off with that shit. This isn't some CNN clownshow.

Athena is literally a figment of Zeus' imagination. That's where most of this female warrior BS comes from - male fantasies.

I don't know what that first part means. And God forbid a fantasy game includes someone's fantasies even if they are only that and nothing more.

 

[Desiderius]

Meh. Harrim is not really JUST a healer.

That's not the point. The point is that if you want to build a healer, your main options are Tristian and (secondarily) Harrim. Two dudes.

You don't have to have an all female party. It depends on the choices you made in prologue area. For example, if you pick lawful choices while speaking to Jamandi Aldori Valerie will notice you. If you pick neutral evil while speaking to Jamandi Aldori, Jaehtal will notice you.

I know, but you missed my point. The game is frontloaded with female companions, and backloaded with male ones (all the Act 2 companions are male!). I am not attributing this to some agenda. But it is very weird decision making by the developers, and I do not think it works well.

We agree on a lot of the rest that you wrote.

Currently healing with Linzi’s Soothing Song and consumables, and the consumables are getting heavy. Harrim isn’t a healer until late if at all. Don’t know why you insist on trying to make him one.

 

[Trashos]

Warrior women are western archetypes, though. A lot of women are goddesses of war and warriors themselves (Athena, Enyo, Andrasta, Artemis, Morrigan, Bellona etc.). There are a lot of women warriors in Greek mythology, like Atalanta, Hippolyta, Panthesilea, along with the amazons. Celtic and Nordic mythology is full of such examples as well. And this isn't counting all the other continents. They are a classic archetype, but much like the Oracle for example, you don't see oracles in every story ever and you don't see women warriors in every story ever, that is ok.

In Ancient Greece women didn't fight, not under normal circumstances anyway. Ares was the proper God of War, Athena was mainly the Goddess of Wisdom. I do not know if I am forgetting some specific occasion or era, but I am sure it must have been the exception to the rule.

Sure, you can find exceptions to the rule. But that's not what I meant by "classic archetype". For an archetype to be a classic, it has to be relevant to most regions and cultures in most eras. Something like that.

Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing that can't be justified by invoking the "classic archetypes".

Er, no. Just no. Come on man, you are better than that. Have you ended up in a bubble?

Why doesn't that angle about Valerie cut it?

Because I do not find spoiled brats interesting. Also, we had a spoiled brat in BG2 (Nalia), and the game would lose nothing if she wasn't there. Hint-hint for all writers everywhere.

 

[Desiderius]

Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing

You can fuck right on off with that shit. This isn't some CNN clownshow.

Athena is literally a figment of Zeus' imagination. That's where most of this female warrior BS comes from - male fantasies.

I don't know what that first part means. And God forbid a fantasy game includes someone's fantasies even if they are only that and nothing more.

It means pretending classical archetypes are personal preferences is a lie and a lie so obvious that only those wholly devoid of any self-awareness would try it. Same with the subtextual personal dig.

No surprise to see you abusing the concept of inclusion too. Another victim of maleducation. Inclusion and domination are distinct, nearly opposite things. To conflate one with the other is a common bullshit power play.

 

[Lacrymas]

In Ancient Greece women didn't fight, not under normal circumstances anyway. Ares was the proper God of War, Athena was mainly the Goddess of Wisdom. I do not know if I am forgetting some specific occasion or era, but I am sure it must have been the exception to the rule.

Sure, you can find exceptions to the rule. But that's not what I meant by "classic archetype". For an archetype to be a classic, it has to be relevant to most regions and cultures in most eras. Something like that.

We aren't talking about who fought when, we are talking about literature and mythology archetypes, in which women warriors definitely exist. Why is Ares the "proper" god of war and Athena isn't? She has many aspects and one of them is warfare and protectress of the citadel. Warrior women do exist across cultures and continents, but you talked about the Western ones, so that's who I listed.

Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing that can't be justified by invoking the "classic archetypes".

Er, no. Just no. Come on man, you are better than that. Have you ended up in a bubble?

I don't know what that means here. I am saying that it is your personal wish and you are trying to justify it for some reason instead of simply owning it. Ok, you want a buff dude to save the princess, I get it. Probably a lot of people want that, but so what, I want a lot of things too.

Because I do not find spoiled brats interesting. Also, we had a spoiled brat in BG2 (Nalia), and the game would lose nothing if she wasn't there. Hint-hint for all writers everywhere.

She isn't a spoiled brat, you completely missed the part where she is an exceptional case because she's rich and can afford to do whatever she wants to because of that. And not only that, but she also had the discipline and skill to become a fighter, so in no way is she a brat. The spoiled part comes in from the fact that she thought she can escape her lot in life, the mere idea of that comes from that she probably has gotten everything she has ever wanted in the first place.

 

[Delterius]

Saw some vids where people's multiclasses seem to retain specific sorcerer abilities from their bloodline. Case in point some trickster with wings. Is that a bug?

Athena was mainly the Goddess of Wisdom

lolwut

 

[Trashos]

Currently healing with Linzi’s Soothing Song and consumables, and the consumables are getting heavy. Harrim isn’t a healer until late if at all. Don’t know why you insist on trying to make him one.

Linzi has no group healing for a very long while. Harrim does from the beginning. Linzi has nothing on Harrim healing wise, not until much later than where I am.

Generally I am not using Harrim, I am using Tristian. But I somehow had to accommodate Harrim into my party when I visited the Dwarven region.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

A lot of people don't care for Jubilost,

These people have SHIT taste.

 

[Desiderius]

In Ancient Greece women didn't fight, not under normal circumstances anyway. Ares was the proper God of War, Athena was mainly the Goddess of Wisdom. I do not know if I am forgetting some specific occasion or era, but I am sure it must have been the exception to the rule.

Sure, you can find exceptions to the rule. But that's not what I meant by "classic archetype". For an archetype to be a classic, it has to be relevant to most regions and cultures in most eras. Something like that.

We aren't talking about who fought when, we are talking about literature and mythology archetypes, in which women warriors definitely exist. Why is Ares the "proper" god of war and Athena isn't? She has many aspects and one of them is warfare and protectress of the citadel. Warrior women do exist across cultures and continents, but you talked about the Western ones, so that's who I listed.

Wanting the buff dude to save the princess sounds like a personal thing that can't be justified by invoking the "classic archetypes".

Er, no. Just no. Come on man, you are better than that. Have you ended up in a bubble?

I don't know what that means here. I am saying that it is your personal wish and you are trying to justify it for some reason instead of simply owning it. Ok, you want a buff dude to save the princess, I get it. Probably a lot of people want that, but so what, I want a lot of things too.

Because I do not find spoiled brats interesting. Also, we had a spoiled brat in BG2 (Nalia), and the game would lose nothing if she wasn't there. Hint-hint for all writers everywhere.

She isn't a spoiled brat, you completely missed the part where she is an exceptional case because she's rich and can afford to do whatever she wants to because of that. And not only that, but she also had the discipline and skill to become a fighter, so in no way is she a brat. The spoiled part comes in from the fact that she thought she can escape her lot in life, the mere idea of that comes from the fact she probably has gotten everything she has ever wanted in the first place.

That’s what spoiled means. Stop digging. She’s not a skilled fighter, she’s mediocre at best. You can make her one, but that’s concurrent to helping her become a better person through her quest, and she’s never going to be as good of a fighter as she is a Bard/Kineticist/Feyspeaker whatever.

T is as usual prejudging the game, at least he’s open to revising his judgments as new evidence is presented.

 

[Desiderius]

Currently healing with Linzi’s Soothing Song and consumables, and the consumables are getting heavy. Harrim isn’t a healer until late if at all. Don’t know why you insist on trying to make him one.

Linzi has no group healing for a very long while. Harrim does from the beginning. Linzi has nothing on Harrim healing wise, not until much later than where I am.

Generally I am not using Harrim, I am using Tristian. But I somehow had to accommodate Harrim into my party when I visited the Dwarven region.

He really doesn’t unless you’re burning spells. His channeling is pipsqueak. He also has 18 WIS, gets +4 AC vs Trolls and Giant Zombies, +4 saves vs spells/spell-like abilities, and Touch of Chaos, which is like an inverse Touch of Good and just as devastating. Somehow first go, later you’ll want him.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Valerie is a proper waifu, not sure why people are hating on her

 

[Trashos]

I do not understand the Athena objection. Ares was specialized in war. Athena had various responsibilities, including war. She was just higher up in the hierarchy. But the thing that set her apart was Wisdom.

 

[Delterius]

Jesus. Athena is not godesses of wisdom alone. She is a goddess of strategy and heroes. She guides Achilles in his effort against Aeneas and Hector. She is not dressed in armour, holding a spear and has a aegis for no reason.

Also, a shield maiden *is* an archetype. It is specifically a western archetype. The Amazon's also count, although they were probably based on Central asian women. They are also based in Europe though in Aeniad. Camilla being an example.

kit the communist

But the thing that set her apart was Wisdom.

yea this is the 'i watched disney's hercules in a middle school greek mythology class' take

 

[Trashos]

I am saying that it is your personal wish and you are trying to justify it for some reason instead of simply owning it. Ok, you want a buff dude to save the princess, I get it. Probably a lot of people want that, but so what, I want a lot of things too.

I am not saying that you should not get what you want. I am saying that I 'd like to get what I want too. I am also arguing that in all probability a lot of people would enjoy what I want.

 

[Trashos]

yea this is the 'i watched disney's hercules in a middle school greek mythology class' take

Er, I am Greek, and half my family are Ancient Greece experts in various professions. (I am in STEM though)

 

[Lacrymas]

That’s what spoiled means. Stop digging. She’s not a skilled fighter, she’s mediocre at best. You can make her one, but that’s concurrent to helping her become a better person through her quest, and she’s never going to be as good of a fighter as she is a Bard/Kineticist/Feyspeaker whatever.

T is as usual prejudging the game, at least he’s open to revising his judgments as new evidence is presented.

Ok, maybe she isn't skilled at all and just because she is rich/comes from an influential family she managed to get a position as a guardsman, but that doesn't really counter what I'm saying, quite the opposite.

The thing with Ares vs Athena is not that one of them is a proper god of war, it's just that Athena governs tactics/strategy, intelligence in battle and good leadership (she herself leads warriors in battle), while Ares represents violence and bloodlust in war. There is a reason the Greeks venerated Athena more.

 

[Delterius]

yea this is the 'i watched disney's hercules in a middle school greek mythology class' take

Er, I am Greek, and half my family are Ancient Greece experts in various professions. (I am in STEM though)

So athena isn't a proper god of war?

 

[Lacrymas]

Definitely a goddess of being a pussy with no active role in battle.

And we are forgetting Enyo, the other goddess of war who governs over actual bloodshed, terror and destruction.