Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Delterius]

More like strategy and tactics. War in Hellenic sphere was an activity of rage and abandon.

wat

remember that story about how epaminondas fucked the spartans by charging with rage and abandon

 

[Trashos]

yea this is the 'i watched disney's hercules in a middle school greek mythology class' take

Er, I am Greek, and half my family are Ancient Greece experts in various professions. (I am in STEM though)

So athena isn't a proper god of war?

So I advise against making it about me.

 

[Delterius]

yea this is the 'i watched disney's hercules in a middle school greek mythology class' take

Er, I am Greek, and half my family are Ancient Greece experts in various professions. (I am in STEM though)

So athena isn't a proper god of war?

So I advise against making it about me.

So athena is a proper god of war, then.

 

[Desiderius]

The thing about Ares and Athena is that Ares’ mom is Hera and Athena’s mom is, er, um. She’s more ideal than real. Which was the original point.

The manly woman ideal that gets pressed on girls so hard these days ends up making most of them miserable if they buy into it. Luckily many have stopped doing so. The woke VCs who bullied devs into skewing games that direction (aka Gamergate) did no one any favors, so I can very much see where Trashos is coming from, I just think that this game is pushing back against that rather than embodying it.

 

[Delterius]

ah yes it is common knowledge that the greeks held their gods to be more 'ideal' than real

'naw man athena can't punish you, she's not that real'

 

[Lacrymas]

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

 

[Delterius]

Oh really? Ever read Hesiod? Do you *anything* about Greek mythology that is not from cartoons? Also what city is named after Ares?

hello

lacrymas is being sarcastic and arguing the other side

this was me being helpful

 

[Pink Eye]

Meh. Harrim is not really JUST a healer.

That's not the point. The point is that if you want to build a healer, your main options are Tristian and (secondarily) Harrim. Two dudes.

You don't have to have an all female party. It depends on the choices you made in prologue area. For example, if you pick lawful choices while speaking to Jamandi Aldori Valerie will notice you. If you pick neutral evil while speaking to Jamandi Aldori, Jaehtal will notice you.

I know, but you missed my point. The game is frontloaded with female companions, and backloaded with male ones (all the Act 2 companions are male!). I am not attributing this to some agenda. But it is very weird decision making by the developers, and I do not think it works well.

We agree on a lot of the rest that you wrote.

I see your point.

 

[Desiderius]

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

Yes, men are stronger than women and both more suited and more interested in war.

Yes, the concrete reality of the Gods has been a perennially significant question throughout history. Cf. the Real Presence debate.

Ideal is neither less nor more than real, just different, with different functions vis a vis archetypes and the like.

I'm the one arguing that Val and Amiri are not shit characters, but rather timely representations of real distortions in the public imagination that have real consequences, first and foremost for real women, and that their character arcs are a canny take on the ways out of such distortions.

Made up arguments are easier to deal with than real ones you have no answer to, that is indeed the case. Don't you have a duly elected President to impeach, Chairman Schiff?

 

[Desiderius]

Valeria is perfectly fine outside of being *called* atheist. I mean she knows gods exist. Atheist in our world is not the same as atheism in Pathfinder.

Valerie is a case "daughter of wisdom". I am curious who gets that reference.

She can sort of get there, but pretending that art and poetry are a total waste is anything but wise.

 

[Delterius]

i'd like to remind everyone that me disliking valerie is just, like, my opinion man

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

Metis was the mother of Athena. She was Zeus's first "wife" and was a titan/goddess of prudence. He swallowed her so he could both keep her council and attempt her from bearing him any children who would usurp him. He was too late, and Athena was born from Metis inside of his head.

As far as warrior women go, they are a trope in western mythology because of them being exceptions to the rule. Nearly every single one also has some form of divine heritage or mystical upbringing to justify it. The Norse were relatively egalitarian, yet being called a woman was still an insult. When Odin and Loki fall out, Odin insults Loki by reminding him of the time Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (8 legged horse) after he turned into a mare and got fucked by the magical stallion Svaolifari. Loki's other shape-shifts into females is also used to demonstrate his weak nature. He has to be duplicitous because he can't confront problems directly. Despite mythological exceptions, women being warriors has been considered laughable throughout all of western history.

 

[Desiderius]

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

Metis was the mother of Athena. She was Zeus's first "wife" and was a titan/goddess of prudence. He swallowed her so he could both keep her council and attempt her from bearing him any children who would usurp him. He was too late, and Athena was born from Metis inside of his head.

As far as warrior women go, they are a trope in western mythology because of them being exceptions to the rule. Nearly every single one also has some form of divine heritage or mystical upbringing to justify it. The Norse were relatively egalitarian, yet being called a woman was still an insult. When Odin and Loki fall out, Odin insults Loki by reminding him of the time Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (8 legged horse) after he turned into a mare and got fucked by the magical stallion Svaolifari. Loki's other shape-shifts into females is also used to demonstrate his weak nature. He has to be duplicitous because he can't confront problems directly. Despite mythological exceptions, women being warriors has been considered laughable throughout all of western history.

Isn't the Metis version the minority report vs. springing full-born from Zeus' brain?

 

[Delterius]

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

Metis was the mother of Athena. She was Zeus's first "wife" and was a titan/goddess of prudence. He swallowed her so he could both keep her council and attempt her from bearing him any children who would usurp him. He was too late, and Athena was born from Metis inside of his head.

As far as warrior women go, they are a trope in western mythology because of them being exceptions to the rule. Nearly every single one also has some form of divine heritage or mystical upbringing to justify it. The Norse were relatively egalitarian, yet being called a woman was still an insult. When Odin and Loki fall out, Odin insults Loki by reminding him of the time Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (8 legged horse) after he turned into a mare and got fucked by the magical stallion Svaolifari. Loki's other shape-shifts into females is also used to demonstrate his weak nature. He has to be duplicitous because he can't confront problems directly. Despite mythological exceptions, women being warriors has been considered laughable throughout all of western history.

Isn't the Metis version the minority report vs. springing full-born from Zeus' brain?

many versions are combined, with zeus having eaten a pregnant metis and then having a headache at which point some god blasts his head open and athena is born

As far as warrior women go, they are a trope in western mythology because of them being exceptions to the rule. Nearly every single one also has some form of divine heritage or mystical upbringing to justify it. The Norse were relatively egalitarian, yet being called a woman was still an insult. When Odin and Loki fall out, Odin insults Loki by reminding him of the time Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (8 legged horse) after he turned into a mare and got fucked by the magical stallion Svaolifari. Loki's other shape-shifts into females is also used to demonstrate his weak nature. He has to be duplicitous because he can't confront problems directly. Despite mythological exceptions, women being warriors has been considered laughable throughout all of western history.

tbh the snowmen aren't western, they destroyed the west in their day

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Spoiler

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

Metis was the mother of Athena. She was Zeus's first "wife" and was a titan/goddess of prudence. He swallowed her so he could both keep her council and attempt her from bearing him any children who would usurp him. He was too late, and Athena was born from Metis inside of his head.

As far as warrior women go, they are a trope in western mythology because of them being exceptions to the rule. Nearly every single one also has some form of divine heritage or mystical upbringing to justify it. The Norse were relatively egalitarian, yet being called a woman was still an insult. When Odin and Loki fall out, Odin insults Loki by reminding him of the time Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (8 legged horse) after he turned into a mare and got fucked by the magical stallion Svaolifari. Loki's other shape-shifts into females is also used to demonstrate his weak nature. He has to be duplicitous because he can't confront problems directly. Despite mythological exceptions, women being warriors has been considered laughable throughout all of western history.

Isn't the Metis version the minority report vs. springing full-born from Zeus' brain?

I don't believe so. I think Metis just gets glossed over as a footnote.

 

[Desiderius]

tbh the snowmen aren't western, they destroyed the west in their day

The two are mutually inclusive. Cf. 1066 and all that.

 

[Delterius]

Spoiler

She not having a mom definitely points to her being less than Ares and definitely unreal. While Ares is definitely real because he has a mom and is a big strong man who can be a god of war, unlike that skank Athena who doesn't have a mom. And that's why Valerie and Amiri are shit characters. Prove me wrong. Checkmate, Obama.

Metis was the mother of Athena. She was Zeus's first "wife" and was a titan/goddess of prudence. He swallowed her so he could both keep her council and attempt her from bearing him any children who would usurp him. He was too late, and Athena was born from Metis inside of his head.

As far as warrior women go, they are a trope in western mythology because of them being exceptions to the rule. Nearly every single one also has some form of divine heritage or mystical upbringing to justify it. The Norse were relatively egalitarian, yet being called a woman was still an insult. When Odin and Loki fall out, Odin insults Loki by reminding him of the time Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (8 legged horse) after he turned into a mare and got fucked by the magical stallion Svaolifari. Loki's other shape-shifts into females is also used to demonstrate his weak nature. He has to be duplicitous because he can't confront problems directly. Despite mythological exceptions, women being warriors has been considered laughable throughout all of western history.

Isn't the Metis version the minority report vs. springing full-born from Zeus' brain?

I don't believe so. I think Metis just gets glossed over as a footnote.

totally uncool, metis was the best hellenistic since joining with maat

 

[Lacrymas]

How is any of this relevant to this discussion, though. It doesn't matter whether Athena has a mother, it doesn't matter whether women can be warriors irl, it doesn't matter who thinks what about irl women.

 

[Delterius]

How is any of this relevant to this discussion, though. It doesn't matter whether Athena has a mother, it doesn't matter whether women can be warriors irl, it doesn't matter who thinks what about irl women.

it matters for gamergate

 

[Lacrymas]

it matters for gamergate

Ah, I see we are quite topical and relevant.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

How is any of this relevant to this discussion, though. It doesn't matter whether Athena has a mother, it doesn't matter whether women can be warriors irl, it doesn't matter who thinks what about irl women.

I think the conversation grew out of the critique of the NPCs personalities and whether or not they were garden variety SJW, a deconstruction critique thereof, or something with actual cultural precedent.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, but we are talking specifically about fictional representations and archetypes, not about what women irl can do or not. Do women warriors exist in stories in virtually all civilizations? Yes. Is it an archetype in literature? Yes. Is Valerie one of those? I wouldn't say so, like I said I think more of her as a rich girl who got to do what she wanted (whether she is skilled in it or not) because she is rich and comes from an influential family. She just blames her beauty because she doesn't see the advantage she has over other people (that isn't her beauty). Amiri is such an archetype though.

And this is only based on like the first conversation with them at Oleg's.

 

[Pink Eye]

Wow, ya have really gone off the deep end. To contribute, I just want to say, Hitler did nothing wrong. All hail the Nazi Empire.

 

[Desiderius]

How is any of this relevant to this discussion, though. It doesn't matter whether Athena has a mother, it doesn't matter whether women can be warriors irl, it doesn't matter who thinks what about irl women.

Trashos is tired of all the warriors in games being men with tits and wooden dialogue tacked on. Aren't you at least curious about why this happened?

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, but we are talking specifically about fictional representations and archetypes, not about what women irl can do or not. Do women warriors exist in stories in virtually all civilizations? Yes. Is it an archetype in literature? Yes. Is Valerie one of those? I wouldn't say so, like I said I think more of her as a rich girl who got to do what she wanted (whether she is skilled in it or not) because she is rich and comes from an influential family. She just blames her beauty because she doesn't see the advantage she has over other people (that isn't her beauty). Amiri is such an archetype though.

And this is only based on like the first conversation with them at Oleg's.

Keep playing then. Those archetypes exist but are the opposite of dominant, not so in recent games where they're mysteriously ubiquitous, often to the point of crowding out all else. Why is that?