Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Yosharian]

How easy is it to succeed on Dazzling Display checks versus endgame enemies? What kind of DCs are we looking at?

Oh and another thing, endgame enemies are all Fey right?

Easy if you optimize. Don't remember DCs.

And definitely not only fey. Also lots of ghosts and constructs. Even some medusas.

32 Charisma (+11 mod), +4 from item, +2 from race, and full ranks in Persuasion enough?

Or do I need Skill Focus in addition to that?

 

[Desiderius]

Normally these types of things wouldn't bother me. However, it seems the developers do take their complaints pretty seriously. Since I am interested in the studio and want to see what new game they release, it would suck if they appealed to casuals in the sequel. I mean they redesigned Bokken's fang berry quest because casuals complained too much about the spider swarms.

Well, the early game is hard in an unnecessary way. The Spiders are still there. Technic League and Ancient Tomb are no picnic for lvl 2 new players, which they’ll be on the default setting.

The rest of the game requires you to match your available skills and abilities to the weaknesses of the mobs, but those early fights you don’t even have any skills and abilities to match.

They can make a challenging overall game without bum rushing new players.

 

[Desiderius]

all those surveys about muh difficulty spell ill fate for the sequel,"why did you remove hit chance owlcat?well most players found it confusing so we had to remove it"

Indeed. There isn't much I can do about it. Owlcat needs to sell games.

They already are. If they nerf everything for the sequel they'll end up like Deadfire and deserve it.

I like how the casuals who are complaining the most are the table top players, lol. Whaaaa. Real Time with Pause is too hard. Whaaaa. Stats are too bloated whaaa.

I can see their point. Owlcat should just make a “PnP mode” for the next game where all the values are the same as PnP and party size is four or whatever.

Need PnPers to be promoting the game, not insidiously undermining it by spamming disinformation everyone because their favorite strategy didn’t port over perfectly.

 

[Yosharian]

Swarms are incredibly vicious when you unleash them on unsuspecting players. But I kind of yearn for this kind of gameplay, sometimes. I have fond memories of fumbling my way through BG2 back when I knew nothing about D&D. Getting raped by regenerating werewolves, confuse-spamming umber hulks and fucking vampires. All these new players miss out on those fun experiences.

 

[Haplo]

How easy is it to succeed on Dazzling Display checks versus endgame enemies? What kind of DCs are we looking at?

Oh and another thing, endgame enemies are all Fey right?

Easy if you optimize. Don't remember DCs.

And definitely not only fey. Also lots of ghosts and constructs. Even some medusas.

32 Charisma (+11 mod), +4 from item, +2 from race, and full ranks in Persuasion enough?

Or do I need Skill Focus in addition to that?

Could be a little low to be fully reliable. I had less Charisma but +20 from Str with Intimidating Prowess...

 

[Daidre]

How easy is it to succeed on Dazzling Display checks versus endgame enemies? What kind of DCs are we looking at?

Oh and another thing, endgame enemies are all Fey right?

End game Fey has DC around 40-50, (WH Scout is 40, Monarch is 49) on Hard, there are also golems and ghosts who are immune.

With basic skill is 20 + 3 from class + 0-10 from Cha, you'd still need extra assistance from buffs/items/feats (like Intimidating Prowess Haplo mentioned) to reliably pull it off.

 

[Pink Eye]

all those surveys about muh difficulty spell ill fate for the sequel,"why did you remove hit chance owlcat?well most players found it confusing so we had to remove it"

Indeed. There isn't much I can do about it. Owlcat needs to sell games.

They already are. If they nerf everything for the sequel they'll end up like Deadfire and deserve it.

I like how the casuals who are complaining the most are the table top players, lol. Whaaaa. Real Time with Pause is too hard. Whaaaa. Stats are too bloated whaaa.

I can see their point. Owlcat should just make a “PnP mode” for the next game where all the values are the same as PnP and party size is four or whatever.

Need PnPers to be promoting the game, not insidiously undermining it by spamming disinformation everyone because their favorite strategy didn’t port over perfectly.

Sounds more like these people didn't even make an attempt to learn the game, and should rather just play on story mode instead.

So, here is my problem with these people complaining about the game's difficulty. Any well developed build will have a "sweet spot", once you reach that sweet spot you're going to start doing some real damage. Throw in buffing, and the stupid items and bonuses that the developers thought would be a good idea to implement, and you will just simply steam roll through most of the content. Spell casters on the other hand don't even need to be well built, unlike martial builds, as their spells do all of the work for them. Furthermore, this is also ignoring the fact that you can accidentally over level yourself for some of the content in the game.

Early game is rough, that much is true. Even though Baldur's Gate 1 early game was much tougher and brutal than Pathfinder. Regardless, the game isn't friendly to new players. However, I feel that there are other ways to address these issues besides nerfing the game's difficulty. Difficulty becomes static once you start to get a hold of the game's mechanics and its inner workings. Nevertheless, I hope Owlcat doesn't take too much stock in these complaints. Pathfinder: Kingmaker is a game that I play a lot of, and still play a lot of. So these surveys might affect my enjoyment of the game, if Owlcat decides to make changes to the game. If they fudge up the sequel, I wouldn't really care. As I can still replay Pathfinder: Kingmaker. However, if they decide to make changes to Pathfinder: Kingmaker based on all of these complaints, I will be upset.

Also RTWP vs TB is banal as all hell.

 

[AdamReith]

If the game doesn't start off unforgiving there's no sense of progression or becoming more powerful.

I was playing yesterday evening however and I hit the were-rat cave with a level two party of five. Feels so cheap to just reload and go somewhere else but they smash me so badly.

What do you guys usually do in this scenario? Do you check their level and give up if its too hard? Do I just need to get good? Back in the day I guess I would just reload as many times as it took because maintaining the contiguity of the adventure is paramount.

But these fucks cut me down like I was made of cardboard.

 

[Yosharian]

If the game doesn't start off unforgiving there's no sense of progression or becoming more powerful.

I was playing yesterday evening however and I hit the were-rat cave with a level two party of five. Feels so cheap to just reload and go somewhere else but they smash me so badly.

What do you guys usually do in this scenario? Do you check their level and give up if its too hard? Do I just need to get good? Back in the day I guess I would just reload as many times as it took because maintaining the contiguity of the adventure is paramount.

But these fucks cut me down like I was made of cardboard.

The were-rats have plenty of weaknesses. You need a party built to exploit those weaknesses, and you need sufficient experience that your exploits will be successful.

One example: a Bard can cast Hideous Laughter very early on, and this spell is very effective against the were-rats. If you can cut down their numbers while your melee characters focus down 1 or 2 were-rats at a time, you can win the advantage in this fight.

It's a tough fight, but it's a fair one.

 

[AdamReith]

The were-rats have plenty of weaknesses. You need a party built to exploit those weaknesses, and you need sufficient experience that your exploits will be successful.

One example: a Bard can cast Hideous Laughter very early on, and this spell is very effective against the were-rats. If you can cut down their numbers while your melee characters focus down 1 or 2 were-rats at a time, you can win the advantage in this fight.

It's a tough fight, but it's a fair one.

Hmm, I don't doubt it. Thanks for the advice, may I ask why hideous laughter is so good against them? I'm not familiar with that spell and I usually roll with Sleep instead.

 

[Pink Eye]

If the game doesn't start off unforgiving there's no sense of progression or becoming more powerful.

I was playing yesterday evening however and I hit the were-rat cave with a level two party of five. Feels so cheap to just reload and go somewhere else but they smash me so badly.

What do you guys usually do in this scenario? Do you check their level and give up if its too hard? Do I just need to get good? Back in the day I guess I would just reload as many times as it took because maintaining the contiguity of the adventure is paramount.

But these fucks cut me down like I was made of cardboard.

>What do you guys usually do in this scenario?
If I find an encounter is eating up more than 3-5 reloads, I'll just leave, and come back later. This is how I usually play unfair.

In regards to your specific issue, there is a trap of bells close to the entrance. You can disarm the trap, but it requires a high perception check to spot it first. Disarming the trap gives you the opportunity to have a drop on them. If you accidentally ring the alarm, you can just rest outside. As doing so will force their buffs to run out. Thus giving you the edge in defeating them.

Outside of that, make sure you're applying the right buffs. Bless, and other bonuses to attack rolls are your bread and butter in the early game. Don't forget the spells that give you a bonus to AC as well. You can also drop a couple of AoE's on the rats. Having someone competent in casting Protection from Fire is also vital. I recommend having someone rush the bomb throwing rat, as that wererat will be the biggest portion of your problems.

Were creatures are also weak to cold iron/silver, if I remember right.

 

[purpleblob]

Boys. There is a survey about difficulty.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/eventcomments/1639801448908941764/

Done my duty

 

[Yosharian]

The were-rats have plenty of weaknesses. You need a party built to exploit those weaknesses, and you need sufficient experience that your exploits will be successful.

One example: a Bard can cast Hideous Laughter very early on, and this spell is very effective against the were-rats. If you can cut down their numbers while your melee characters focus down 1 or 2 were-rats at a time, you can win the advantage in this fight.

It's a tough fight, but it's a fair one.

Hmm, I don't doubt it. Thanks for the advice, may I ask why hideous laughter is so good against them? I'm not familiar with that spell and I usually roll with Sleep instead.

If Sleep works against them, it'll work just as well. The problem is that they probably have enough Hit Dice to be immune to the spell. If they don't, then Sleep + Coup de Grace is a good tactic.

Anyway the reason the spell is effective is because it targets their Will save, which is a weak save for them.

 

[Daidre]

If Sleep works against them, it'll work just as well. The problem is that they probably have enough Hit Dice to be immune to the spell. If they don't, then Sleep + Coup de Grace is a good tactic.

They are level 6-8 and sleep does not work.

It is not a challenge made for lvl 2 party. Custom-made one could probably beat it so early, but at least some source of Resist Energy against fire bombs is required.
Much more doable with lvl 3 party. Hold Person in clerical spellbook + Bard's/Wizard's Hideous Laughter could do the work with the Communal Resist Energy scroll from the shop when scroll vendor becomes available.

It is... like trying to clear ankhegs north of Friendly Arm with lvl 1-2 party without sleep.

 

[Pink Eye]

If Sleep works against them, it'll work just as well. The problem is that they probably have enough Hit Dice to be immune to the spell. If they don't, then Sleep + Coup de Grace is a good tactic.

They are level 6-8 and sleep does not work.

It is not a challenge made for lvl 2 party. Custom-made one could probably beat it so early, but at least some source of Resist Energy against fire bombs is required.
Much more doable with lvl 3 party. Hold Person in clerical spellbook + Bard's/Wizard's Hideous Laughter could do the work with the Communal Resist Energy scroll from the shop when scroll vendor becomes available.

It is... like trying to clear ankhegs north of Friendly Arm with lvl 1-2 party without sleep.

>Level 2
Oooh, if you're attempting the wererats at level 2 you are going to have a hard time.

 

[AdamReith]

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

 

[Daidre]

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

Well, field of 20+ DC spike traps should be a hint that they are not in gullible mood.

 

[Pink Eye]

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

It's pretty ironic actually. Later in the game you do talk to some wererats, which are related to a certain alchemist and his accursed potions. So, it's obvious that wererats can and do talk to humans. Which begs the question, why can't you talk to these wererats? :thinking:

 

[AdamReith]

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

Well, field of 20+ DC spike traps should be a hint that they are not in gullible mood.

I feel the need to reach out to them... Touch their rat hearts and show them the light.

But I guess I'll come back later with more specialised equipment and exterminate them.

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

It's pretty ironic actually. Later in the game you do talk to some wererats, which are related to a certain alchemist and his accursed potions. So, it's obvious that wererats can and do talk to humans. Which begs the question, why can't you talk to these wererats? :thinking:

That's fantastic. Can't wait to persuade some rats later in the game.

 

[Pink Eye]

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

Well, field of 20+ DC spike traps should be a hint that they are not in gullible mood.

"Hello wererats, there has been a misunderstanding here. Yes, I did indeed notice the many traps surrounding your venerable home. Also yes, I did notice the dead bodies surrounding your home's entrance. However, I think I got in by accident."

Hmm, this logic works for me!

 

[AdamReith]

If only I could... persuade them. Not to kill me.

Well, field of 20+ DC spike traps should be a hint that they are not in gullible mood.

"Hello wererats, there has been a misunderstanding here. Yes, I did indeed notice the many traps surrounding your venerable home. Also yes, I did notice the dead bodies surrounding your home's entrance. However, I think I got in by accident."

Hmm, this logic works for me!

"I just followed the trail of free xp and itams, what do you mean you don't want me here?"

 

[Yosharian]

If you just keep the alchemist were-rat disabled, you don't need Resist Energy. The problem is that he starts the fight stealthed, but if you can spot and disable him before he starts throwing his bombs, you'll be OK.

 

[Daidre]

If you just keep the alchemist were-rat disabled, you don't need Resist Energy. The problem is that he starts the fight stealthed, but if you can spot and disable him before he starts throwing his bombs, you'll be OK.

In the lvl 2 party all CC lasts for 2 rounds max in the best case. It next to impossible to kill him in this time with 2 melees rushing in with sneaks.

 

[Pink Eye]

Level 2 party will also have low BAB. So there's that too.

 

[Delterius]

The were-rats have plenty of weaknesses. You need a party built to exploit those weaknesses, and you need sufficient experience that your exploits will be successful.

One example: a Bard can cast Hideous Laughter very early on, and this spell is very effective against the were-rats. If you can cut down their numbers while your melee characters focus down 1 or 2 were-rats at a time, you can win the advantage in this fight.

It's a tough fight, but it's a fair one.

Hmm, I don't doubt it. Thanks for the advice, may I ask why hideous laughter is so good against them? I'm not familiar with that spell and I usually roll with Sleep instead.

The wererats have high reflex saves and low will saves. Use the Inspect button on enemies to show that. Also use Glitterdust if you can.