Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Trashos]

How is either of these solutions different from randomly clicking on them until they line up? Also, "that affects an even amount of times the statues that need to end up unchanged, and an odd amount of times the statues that need to end up changed", can you elaborate? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

You can cheese it by clicking at random, sure. I am giving you the organized solution.

Starting from Room 1 NORTH and ending at Room 2 SOUTH, I name the statues s1-s2-s3-s4-s5-s6. The relative buttons are b1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6.

Step 1: Note initial condition of statues (up or down).

I am not there currently, and do not remember which statues need to change condition. Anyway, just note down the ones that need to change, so that all statues point the same direction.

Step 2: Write down what statues each button affects.

By trying each button and noticing the effect, you end up with the following list:
b1 affects s1, s2, s4
b2 affects s1, s2, s3
b3 affects s2, s3, s6
b4 affects s1, s4
b5 affects s5, s6
b6 affects s3, s5, s6

Step 3: Find a succession of buttons (order does not matter) that affects an even amount of times the statues that need to end up unchanged, and an odd amount of times the statues that need to end up changed.

Theoretical Example: Let's assume that you only want to change s2 and nothing else. You need to find a combination of buttons that changes only s2.

Solution: b1 and b4
Why?
s1: affected 2 times (even). Remains UNCHANGED.
s2: affected 1 time (odd). CHANGED.
s3: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s4: affected 2 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s5: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s6: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.

Therefore, in order to change the condition of s2 (and s2 only), you need to press b1 and b4. Order does not matter.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

How is either of these solutions different from randomly clicking on them until they line up? Also, "that affects an even amount of times the statues that need to end up unchanged, and an odd amount of times the statues that need to end up changed", can you elaborate? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

You can cheese it by clicking at random, sure. I am giving you the organized solution.

Starting from Room 1 NORTH and ending at Room 2 SOUTH, I name the statues s1-s2-s3-s4-s5-s6. The relative buttons are b1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6.

Step 1: Note initial condition of statues (up or down).

I am not there currently, and do not remember which statues need to change condition. Anyway, just note down the ones that need to change, so that all statues point the same direction.

Step 2: Write down what statues each button affects.

By trying each button and noticing the effect, you end up with the following list:
b1 affects s1, s2, s4
b2 affects s1, s2, s3
b3 affects s2, s3, s6
b4 affects s1, s4
b5 affects s5, s6
b6 affects s3, s5, s6

Step 3: Find a succession of buttons (order does not matter) that affects an even amount of times the statues that need to end up unchanged, and an odd amount of times the statues that need to end up changed.

Theoretical Example: Let's assume that you only want to change s2 and nothing else. You need to find a combination of buttons that changes only s2.

Solution: b1 and b4
Why?
s1: affected 2 times (even). Remains UNCHANGED.
s2: affected 1 time (odd). CHANGED.
s3: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s4: affected 2 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s5: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s6: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.

Therefore, in order to change the condition of s2 (and s2 only), you need to press b1 and b4. Order does not matter.

Haha, yeah, you would be the target player for Shitmaker. Is that a math theorem above?

But I still don't understand why you think this would work better than random clicking:

1. If you don't use a guide, how do you even know what should be changed or unchanged? You don't know what combination of statue states unlocks the treasure. I guess you can kinda assume all up or all down is the likeliest solution, but that's already two possible targets, and you don't know for sure.

2. Essentially, this is just a more sophisticated way to try various permutations. So by randomly clicking, you can avoid all the extra work, and achieve pretty much the same result.

 

[Trashos]

I guess you can kinda assume all up or all down is the likeliest solution, but that's already two possible targets, and you don't know for sure.

There are two rooms to unlock. One unlocks with everything up and the other one unlocks with everything down. Yes, you do not know this beforehand, but aligning all the statues is the first thing to try when you have no information, isn't it? So you try it, see that it works, and that's the end of story.

I did not claim that it is a better method, I claimed that it is an organized method. It is better for *me*, because it needs no luck and I can do it fast.

It is similar to nuFallout's hacking game, in a way. It is nerdy and I find it extremely fun, while people who don't care about it can just cheese it. Everybody wins.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

You should play Ultima Underworld or Arx Fatalis to see what actual RPG puzzles are like.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Spoiler

How is either of these solutions different from randomly clicking on them until they line up? Also, "that affects an even amount of times the statues that need to end up unchanged, and an odd amount of times the statues that need to end up changed", can you elaborate? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

You can cheese it by clicking at random, sure. I am giving you the organized solution.

Starting from Room 1 NORTH and ending at Room 2 SOUTH, I name the statues s1-s2-s3-s4-s5-s6. The relative buttons are b1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6.

Step 1: Note initial condition of statues (up or down).

I am not there currently, and do not remember which statues need to change condition. Anyway, just note down the ones that need to change, so that all statues point the same direction.

Step 2: Write down what statues each button affects.

By trying each button and noticing the effect, you end up with the following list:
b1 affects s1, s2, s4
b2 affects s1, s2, s3
b3 affects s2, s3, s6
b4 affects s1, s4
b5 affects s5, s6
b6 affects s3, s5, s6

Step 3: Find a succession of buttons (order does not matter) that affects an even amount of times the statues that need to end up unchanged, and an odd amount of times the statues that need to end up changed.

Theoretical Example: Let's assume that you only want to change s2 and nothing else. You need to find a combination of buttons that changes only s2.

Solution: b1 and b4
Why?
s1: affected 2 times (even). Remains UNCHANGED.
s2: affected 1 time (odd). CHANGED.
s3: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s4: affected 2 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s5: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.
s6: affected 0 times (even). UNCHANGED.

Therefore, in order to change the condition of s2 (and s2 only), you need to press b1 and b4. Order does not matter.

Brofist. Someone who understands.

 

[Trashos]

You should play Ultima Underworld or Arx Fatalis to see what actual RPG puzzles are like.

Informative, but the kind of puzzles I like are like the above statue puzzle. Since that's not your taste, I am a bit cautious with your puzzle recommendations.

 

[razvedchiki]

Advanced martial arts feats are available at lvl 9?because i get them right after lvl 5.

 

[Gregz]

PorkyThePaladin

1. Fedora Master:
   At least Kingmaker is based on an actual system and not some made up shit by Mr BALANCE
2. Junmarko:
   yeah looks good. most people seem to have positive feedback on it
3. Felix:
   Won't remove it from an inventory though
4. Gregz:
   Fedora Master: At least Kingmaker is based on an actual system and not some made up shit by Mr BALANCE <- no, this is where most of the Codex is confused
5. Gregz:
   Owlcat took a system with rules, and forced the player to play by them, then proceeded to break every rule imaginable on the DM side
6. Fedora Master:
   Fair point
7. Gregz:
   that's probably the biggest stink of the whole affair
8. Junmarko:
   Yeah heard PF was made up of people who left DnD
9. Gregz:
   rules are a contract between the players and DM, Owlcat shat over that entire paradigm
10. Fedora Master:
    Thats what I meant by "designed to appear hardcore"
11. Gregz:
    what they did was MUCH worse than anything Sawyer ever did

 

[InD_ImaginE]

The contract is when you buy the game you agree what the DM is tweaking the rules with you dungus.

 

[Pink Eye]

Kingmaker follows a strict adherence to the core rules. Only concessions the developers made were to flanking and sneak attacks. Everything else is per PnP.

 

[Shadenuat]

Codex thatcan't into 8 yo lever puzzles and adding 2+1 to beat higher AC on monsters

might as well rename into steam forums 2.

 

[Pink Eye]

Codex thatcan't into 8 yo lever puzzles and adding 2+1 to beat higher AC on monsters

might as well rename into steam forums 2.

Please no. Pathfinder steam forums is a blight.

 

[Trashos]

I do not know about you, guys, but I am trying to play a cRPG, not pnp. It often makes sense to change rules when you change medium, the same way that books are often changed to become cinema. Each medium has its own needs.

 

[Fedora Master]

Kingmaker follows a strict adherence to the core rules. Only concessions the developers made were to flanking and sneak attacks. Everything else is per PnP.

No it doesn't, not on Challenging and above.
There's also the fact that certain encounters are designed in such a way that you NEED meta knowledge to properly deal with them. (No, not swarms.)
At times the game essentially plays as if with a belligerent DM that wants to kill his players.

 

[Pink Eye]

Kingmaker follows a strict adherence to the core rules. Only concessions the developers made were to flanking and sneak attacks. Everything else is per PnP.

No it doesn't, not on Challenging and above.
There's also the fact that certain encounters are designed in such a way that you NEED meta knowledge to properly deal with them. (No, not swarms.)
At times the game essentially plays as if with a belligerent DM that wants to kill his players.

>No it doesn't, not on Challenging and above.
The same is true of Legacy of Bhaal, and Baldur's Gate many other difficulty options. Unfair is, well, unfair. Legacy of Bhaal is, well, unfair. Both Baldur's Gate and Pathfinder gave the player the options to customize the difficulty. I really don't understand the complaint here. You can lower the difficulty, if that is the main issue. Developers gave you the option to fine tune the difficulty to as closely to tabletop as you want.

Also Shadnuat is right, starting to feel like Steam forums all over again.

 

[Trashos]

Are you game journos or sth? We finally got a challenging game, let's attack it!

 

[Fedora Master]

Are you game journos or sth? We finally got a challenging game, let's attack it!

Considering the AI can't even buff itself properly Owlcat instead opted to just smack on a bunch of AC and attributes on higher difficulties, which is the reason why the game feels so swingy and requires cheese tactics. That's the problem and has been since launch.

 

[Trashos]

Then complain that the AI can't buff properly, not that BS you wrote.

There is a Story Mode difficulty, there are 3 billion difficulty options to tailor it however you like, and people are still complaining about game difficulty. You are not a retard, so try not sounding like one.

 

[Pink Eye]

Looks like our humble Trashos has taken over Desiderius's role in schooling the casuals. Haha. Good fun.

 

[Trashos]

People complaining about difficulty in games where there is a Story Mode drives me insane. That's the edge of my sanity, truly.

 

[Morkar Left]

Kingmaker follows a strict adherence to the core rules. Only concessions the developers made were to flanking and sneak attacks. Everything else is per PnP.

No it doesn't, not on Challenging and above.
There's also the fact that certain encounters are designed in such a way that you NEED meta knowledge to properly deal with them. (No, not swarms.)
At times the game essentially plays as if with a belligerent DM that wants to kill his players.

>No it doesn't, not on Challenging and above.
The same is true of Legacy of Bhaal, and Baldur's Gate many other difficulty options. Unfair is, well, unfair. Legacy of Bhaal is, well, unfair. Both Baldur's Gate and Pathfinder gave the player the options to customize the difficulty. I really don't understand the complaint here. You can lower the difficulty, if that is the main issue. Developers gave you the option to fine tune the difficulty to as closely to tabletop as you want.

Also Shadnuat is right, starting to feel like Steam forums all over again.

It's absolutely great that they have enough difficulty options to let the player tweak it. One problem is that even a veteran crpg player doesn't necessarily know how the pathfinder or even d20 rules work and doesn't really know which is the "right" difficulty when starting out. Owlcat had a weird starting difficulty on default. The second problem is that some encounters require you to know very specific details about the rules (swarms, damage reduction) and how dangerous some creatures might be ("rats" aren't dangerous in general fantasy rpgs, big monsters usually are). And that all happens already in the prologue under a timer. You often stumble into story encounters you had no option to choose them or really prepare for them. The third problem is the tweaked rules (flanking with backstabbing). The fourth problem is that owlcat likes overpowered items and stats and gives enemies way better stats than intended by the d20/pathfinder rule set.

That problems aside (most of them are fixable with mods and it's very modfriendly it seems) and the bugs (most are fixed it seems) the game is pretty great. Definitely the best D&D experience since Baldur's Gate II.

 

[Jinn]

People complaining about difficulty in games where there is a Story Mode drives me insane. That's the edge of my sanity, truly.

Even Normal would suffice. I play on Challenging with "Enemy Stat Adjustments" set to "Normal enemies" instead of "Somewhat Tougher enemies," and that's just about the sweet spot for an un-optimized party.

 

[Fedora Master]

Then complain that the AI can't buff properly, not that BS you wrote.

There is a Story Mode difficulty, there are 3 billion difficulty options to tailor it however you like, and people are still complaining about game difficulty. You are not a retard, so try not sounding like one.

There is more to a game's difficulty than stats. That's the fundamental problem here. Also - I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out very obvious design issues. I've beaten the game on Challenging with no problems after I understood the way the devs designed their encounters.

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

My main complaint with the game is that enemies die way too quickly. Unfair should have inflated enemy health points. We can argue about inflated AC and other stats, but all of that becomes meaningless compared to the power that both the Pathfinder/DnD 3.5 ruleset and the developers give the player. All builds, at least well built martial builds, have a sweet spot. Reach that sweet spot and the game becomes pitifully easy. It is not out of the ordinary to move up and auto attack things to death, or prebuff then auto attack. Baldur's Gate Legacy of Bhaal was far more challenging than Unfair.

A couple of pages ago, Trashos raised a pretty good point about mage battles, and how lacking Pathfinder is in this department. He is completely right. Pathfinder's encounters, even on unfair, are fairly one dimensional. Difficulty in Pathfinder only spikes up when the game throws crit/sneak immune stuff like worm man. Or highly buffed enemies like Spawn or Lantern King.

 

[razvedchiki]

if mobs could use dispel game would become 1000% better.