Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

The Raven Quest isn't even a puzzle. It's a convoluted mess. "Go here, now somehow figure out the order in which the blocks are supposed to be organized in". Th-thanks Owlcat.

It's a ~3.5 SD puzzle. I figured out it was solvable in game after doing the online guide for the third time.

 

[NJClaw]

Higher AC. And Trip chance.

Right, smilodon isn't great ac-wise. But if my priority is AC, I wouldn't get a leopard, but probably a mastodon or an elk.

You would need 19 Wisdom to cast level 9 spells though right? Also, why would the DC be lower? I'm not super familiar with the Pathfinder ruleset yet.

Yes, you need at least 10 + N in your casting stat to cast Nth level spells.

The DC for a Nth level spell is 10 + N + your Wisdom modifier (+ eventual other bonuses, like the one for Spell Focus).

 

[Desiderius]

I have a Druid build for Amiri in my sig. I used the cheat mod to fix her stats a little but it's not essential.

And also just make Harrim an MT and be done with it

Can confirm. Summons are great for higher difficulties. Better than tanks.

Belatedly tested Amiri as Barb 20 tank as my fifth(?) build for her and it was surprisingly good. Other companions make better Druids.

 

[Desiderius]

Harrim is the best companion once you figure out the build for him. Half the game is exploring and trying out different things.

I gave him necro focus and some of that stuff is really cool, but only 3 group heals rather than 8 is rough in longer, more difficult battles.

Make them shorter, less difficult. He'll eventually heal better, but this game isn't really about healing.

His best abilities are Touch of Chaos, Destructive Aura, Touch of Chaos, +4 AC vs. Giants, and Touch of Chaos. Also high WIS for Archon's Aura.

Yes, you need at least 10 + N in your casting stat to cast Nth level spells.

The DC for a Nth level spell is 10 + N + your Wisdom modifier (+ eventual other bonuses, like the one for Spell Focus).

Are you sure it isn't 10 + modifier (28 WIS for 9th lvl)?

 

[Desiderius]

Higher AC. And Trip chance.

Smilodon is still way better.

Not saying he isn't. Its just that other options have some advantages also.

Yeah, don't sleep on Trip. Hap does some very bad things with Trip. Especially Pounce + Trip.

 

[NJClaw]

Yes, you need at least 10 + N in your casting stat to cast Nth level spells.

The DC for a Nth level spell is 10 + N + your Wisdom modifier (+ eventual other bonuses, like the one for Spell Focus).

Are you sure it isn't 10 + modifier (28 WIS for 9th lvl)?

100% positive that it works like that in Pathfinder. If in Kingmaker it works like you said, Owlcat is nuts

 

[Pink Eye]

The Raven Quest isn't even a puzzle. It's a convoluted mess. "Go here, now somehow figure out the order in which the blocks are supposed to be organized in". Th-thanks Owlcat.

It's a ~3.5 SD puzzle. I figured out it was solvable in game after doing the online guide for the third time.

Sure. I can tell you one thing for sure. That shit was confusing as fuck on my first attempt. You get no direction and are supposed to figure it out.

 

[NJClaw]

The Raven Quest isn't even a puzzle. It's a convoluted mess. "Go here, now somehow figure out the order in which the blocks are supposed to be organized in". Th-thanks Owlcat.

It's a ~3.5 SD puzzle. I figured out it was solvable in game after doing the online guide for the third time.

Sure. I can tell you one thing for sure. That shit was confusing as fuck on my first attempt. You get no direction and are supposed to figure it out.

I figured it out on my first playthrough: I correctly ignored the quest

 

[Pink Eye]

The Raven Quest isn't even a puzzle. It's a convoluted mess. "Go here, now somehow figure out the order in which the blocks are supposed to be organized in". Th-thanks Owlcat.

It's a ~3.5 SD puzzle. I figured out it was solvable in game after doing the online guide for the third time.

Sure. I can tell you one thing for sure. That shit was confusing as fuck on my first attempt. You get no direction and are supposed to figure it out.

I figured it out on my first playthrough: I correctly ignored the quest

Well. Lucky you. I spent over an hour on it, until I gave up and looked up a guide on it. It was both that puzzle and key puzzle in the house of fun, with the fog doors. Which forced me to actually look up a guide.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Yes, you need at least 10 + N in your casting stat to cast Nth level spells.

The DC for a Nth level spell is 10 + N + your Wisdom modifier (+ eventual other bonuses, like the one for Spell Focus).

Are you sure it isn't 10 + modifier (28 WIS for 9th lvl)?

100% positive that it works like that in Pathfinder. If in Kingmaker it works like you said, Owlcat is nuts

Correct, in PnP you need a 19 to cast ninth level spells. Otherwise you'd need a stat boosting item to cast spells that high, since no one can start with a 23 in any stat.

 

[Pink Eye]

The Raven Quest isn't even a puzzle. It's a convoluted mess. "Go here, now somehow figure out the order in which the blocks are supposed to be organized in". Th-thanks Owlcat.

It's a ~3.5 SD puzzle. I figured out it was solvable in game after doing the online guide for the third time.

I suppose. But there is no confirmation if you got the blocks in the right order. It was mostly guesswork.

 

[Desiderius]

Correct, in PnP you need a 19 to cast ninth level spells. Otherwise you'd need a stat boosting item to cast spells that high, since no one can start with a 23 in any stat.

Same in P:K

Note that Druid can take Animal Domain + Boon Companion to get a bunch of free summons.

 

[Desiderius]

It was mostly guesswork.

Each screen gives you some information about where columns can't go. There's enough altogether to eliminate guesswork. Unfortunately battle and loot are missed opportunity.

Speaking of eliminating guesswork:

MC Archaeologist. For when you absolutely, positively, need to make the RNG your personal bitch.

 

[Tytus]

BTW I was reading some Kingmaker Codex threads and a portion of the people here were complaining about the feminist themes in Kingmaker, but I didn't really find any. In fact the writing for female companions was what the youngsters would call "based" in my opinion.

For example Valerie:

Spoiler

She presents herself as strong independent whamen that needs no man. A wymyn that is angry everyone is only seeing her for beauty and not for the person she is. But the moment the beauty is taken away she basically changes into raging attention whore unloading her frustrations on people around her because men aren't admiring her anymore. This is a completely believable behaviour coming from a woman that attractive all her life. But if this was for example a Bioware game. She would discover that now she is "free" that lack of attention gave her more power, more agency, more strength. In fact Valiere's behaviour before and after getting the scar is presented as pretty self-destructive.

Or Amiri:

Spoiler

She is the strongest character in the group arguably. Which could be considered feminist, I guess? But what Amiri actually is - a dumb, impulsive, rash and unthinking brute that will get herself into trouble (and other around her). Her companion quest is first a series of tasks where she wants to take unnecessary risks for seemingly no reason. And later we find out that the problems of her tribe are basically her fault. Also she wants to prove herself so much because she is unsure of her own abilities and to be honest a pretty miserable person. Not to mention the problem with her tribe could've been resolved pretty quickly if she just let the ghost talk. She like Valerie is a pretty self-destructive. In a Bioware game her tribe would be presented in a much worse light and Amiri would be completely in the right.

Hell even Jaethal:

Spoiler

To get the good ending where she comes back to life you need to basically convince her to embrace motherhood. And responsibility for her past actions. That being a hedonistic THOT is not the way to live your life (unlife).

So I don't know - maybe postmodernism got to me or something. But this is the type of writing I would never expect in a modern western RPG. And I hope this type of approach carries over to Wrath of the Righteous because at least for me, playing Kingmaker was a breath of fresh air in this regard. I hope Wrath doesn't get hit with western decadent views on how to write female companions.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Don't forget, Tristian's romance (and by extension, companion quest) has a leg up on all the others due to how he actually a unique theme dedicated to him.

Something I hope they do for all the companions this time around.

 

[Tytus]

Don't forget, Tristian's romance (and by extension, companion quest) has a leg up on all the others due to how he actually a unique theme dedicated to him.

Something I hope they do for all the companions this time around.

This is my favourite piece of music from the game.
Though while it basically has his "name" on the track it plays during other companions crucial moments too. Like Kaessi's for example.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Tytus This is the most concise and correct analysis of female companions in Kingmaker I have ever seen. How both SJW apologists and critics do not see this in Kingmaker writing is really puzzling.

 

[Yosharian]

BTW I was reading some Kingmaker Codex threads and a portion of the people here were complaining about the feminist themes in Kingmaker, but I didn't really find any. In fact the writing for female companions was what the youngsters would call "based" in my opinion.

For example Valerie:

Spoiler

She presents herself as strong independent whamen that needs no man. A wymyn that is angry everyone is only seeing her for beauty and not for the person she is. But the moment the beauty is taken away she basically changes into raging attention whore unloading her frustrations on people around her because men aren't admiring her anymore. This is a completely believable behaviour coming from a woman that attractive all her life. But if this was for example a Bioware game. She would discover that now she is "free" that lack of attention gave her more power, more agency, more strength. In fact Valiere's behaviour before and after getting the scar is presented as pretty self-destructive.

Or Amiri:

Spoiler

She is the strongest character in the group arguably. Which could be considered feminist, I guess? But what Amiri actually is - a dumb, impulsive, rash and unthinking brute that will get herself into trouble (and other around her). Her companion quest is first a series of tasks where she wants to take unnecessary risks for seemingly no reason. And later we find out that the problems of her tribe are basically her fault. Also she wants to prove herself so much because she is unsure of her own abilities and to be honest a pretty miserable person. Not to mention the problem with her tribe could've been resolved pretty quickly if she just let the ghost talk. She like Valerie is a pretty self-destructive. In a Bioware game her tribe would be presented in a much worse light and Amiri would be completely in the right.

Hell even Jaethal:

Spoiler

To get the good ending where she comes back to life you need to basically convince her to embrace motherhood. And responsibility for her past actions. That being a hedonistic THOT is not the way to live your life (unlife).

So I don't know - maybe postmodernism got to me or something. But this is the type of writing I would never expect in a modern western RPG. And I hope this type of approach carries over to Wrath of the Righteous because at least for me, playing Kingmaker was a breath of fresh air in this regard. I hope Wrath doesn't get hit with western decadent views on how to write female companions.

That's one interpretation, but even if that were the correct one, it still doesn't make this characters LIKEABLE. When considering who is in my party, I don't particularly care for POST-MODERN FEMINIST CRITIQUE as the main character points. People keep posting this interpretation like it's a devastating gotcha to the people who complain about these characters. But it is you who is missing the point entirely. I don't give a shit whether Amiri actually is a STRONG POWAFUL WOMYNZ character, or actually a clever critique on such a character. I am not interested in her either way. If I was given the choice (and a real choice, not Hobson's choice), I would hand her over to Nok-Nok to be sacrificed to Lamashtu at the earliest opportunity.

Brienne of Tarth from GoT, for example, is an interesting character. A tough woman forced into a warrior role. Deep down she longs to be feminine and beautiful - though not at the expense of her strength - but society only has one use for her, which is bashing in skulls. So she makes the best of what she has. Which makes her tremendously likeable, too.

Amiri is just a fucking piece of cardboard compared to an actually well-written character like Brienne. And she's unbelievably obnoxious. The same goes for all these characters. Their eventual character arcs may turn out to be subverted in terms of what players expect, but that doesn't make them any less boring, unlikeable, obnoxious, annoying, and so on. Fuck these characters with a 10 foot barbed pole.

 

[santino27]

BTW I was reading some Kingmaker Codex threads and a portion of the people here were complaining about the feminist themes in Kingmaker, but I didn't really find any. In fact the writing for female companions was what the youngsters would call "based" in my opinion.

For example Valerie:

Spoiler

She presents herself as strong independent whamen that needs no man. A wymyn that is angry everyone is only seeing her for beauty and not for the person she is. But the moment the beauty is taken away she basically changes into raging attention whore unloading her frustrations on people around her because men aren't admiring her anymore. This is a completely believable behaviour coming from a woman that attractive all her life. But if this was for example a Bioware game. She would discover that now she is "free" that lack of attention gave her more power, more agency, more strength. In fact Valiere's behaviour before and after getting the scar is presented as pretty self-destructive.

Or Amiri:

Spoiler

She is the strongest character in the group arguably. Which could be considered feminist, I guess? But what Amiri actually is - a dumb, impulsive, rash and unthinking brute that will get herself into trouble (and other around her). Her companion quest is first a series of tasks where she wants to take unnecessary risks for seemingly no reason. And later we find out that the problems of her tribe are basically her fault. Also she wants to prove herself so much because she is unsure of her own abilities and to be honest a pretty miserable person. Not to mention the problem with her tribe could've been resolved pretty quickly if she just let the ghost talk. She like Valerie is a pretty self-destructive. In a Bioware game her tribe would be presented in a much worse light and Amiri would be completely in the right.

Hell even Jaethal:

Spoiler

To get the good ending where she comes back to life you need to basically convince her to embrace motherhood. And responsibility for her past actions. That being a hedonistic THOT is not the way to live your life (unlife).

So I don't know - maybe postmodernism got to me or something. But this is the type of writing I would never expect in a modern western RPG. And I hope this type of approach carries over to Wrath of the Righteous because at least for me, playing Kingmaker was a breath of fresh air in this regard. I hope Wrath doesn't get hit with western decadent views on how to write female companions.

Yup. I think Trashos had a fairly nuanced take on it in the kingmaker thread... a lot of characters are presented as a particular trope of SJW note and then that trope is deconstructed throughout the game. I think some people just bounced off that stuff at the beginning and never delved further.

Which is not to say the companions are all amazing or anything... just that some of the criticims of them as mouthpieces for a particular agenda are overblown.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Both Valerie and Amiri are not written to be likeable, I think it's pretty clear. Personally I like Jaethal, but I like her for being hedonistic undead mass murderer and steer her further on this path.

Probably, the horny sisters are more like traditional RPG heroines.

just that some of the criticims of them as mouthpieces for a particular agenda are overblown.

May be "misplaced" is the better word.

 

[Ontopoly]

BTW I was reading some Kingmaker Codex threads and a portion of the people here were complaining about the feminist themes in Kingmaker, but I didn't really find any. In fact the writing for female companions was what the youngsters would call "based" in my opinion.

For example Valerie:

Spoiler

She presents herself as strong independent whamen that needs no man. A wymyn that is angry everyone is only seeing her for beauty and not for the person she is. But the moment the beauty is taken away she basically changes into raging attention whore unloading her frustrations on people around her because men aren't admiring her anymore. This is a completely believable behaviour coming from a woman that attractive all her life. But if this was for example a Bioware game. She would discover that now she is "free" that lack of attention gave her more power, more agency, more strength. In fact Valiere's behaviour before and after getting the scar is presented as pretty self-destructive.

Or Amiri:

Spoiler

She is the strongest character in the group arguably. Which could be considered feminist, I guess? But what Amiri actually is - a dumb, impulsive, rash and unthinking brute that will get herself into trouble (and other around her). Her companion quest is first a series of tasks where she wants to take unnecessary risks for seemingly no reason. And later we find out that the problems of her tribe are basically her fault. Also she wants to prove herself so much because she is unsure of her own abilities and to be honest a pretty miserable person. Not to mention the problem with her tribe could've been resolved pretty quickly if she just let the ghost talk. She like Valerie is a pretty self-destructive. In a Bioware game her tribe would be presented in a much worse light and Amiri would be completely in the right.

Hell even Jaethal:

Spoiler

To get the good ending where she comes back to life you need to basically convince her to embrace motherhood. And responsibility for her past actions. That being a hedonistic THOT is not the way to live your life (unlife).

So I don't know - maybe postmodernism got to me or something. But this is the type of writing I would never expect in a modern western RPG. And I hope this type of approach carries over to Wrath of the Righteous because at least for me, playing Kingmaker was a breath of fresh air in this regard. I hope Wrath doesn't get hit with western decadent views on how to write female companions.

Interesting. Now do the rest of the female companions, and nyrissa

 

[Tytus]

That's one interpretation, but even if that were the correct one, it still doesn't make this characters LIKEABLE. When considering who is in my party, I don't particularly care for POST-MODERN FEMINIST CRITIQUE as the main character points. People keep posting this interpretation like it's a devastating gotcha to the people who complain about these characters. But it is you who is missing the point entirely. I don't give a shit whether Amiri actually is a STRONG POWAFUL WOMYNZ character, or actually a clever critique on such a character. I am not interested in her either way. If I was given the choice (and a real choice, not Hobson's choice), I would hand her over to Nok-Nok to be sacrificed to Lamashtu at the earliest opportunity.

Yeah, I was only addressing the SJW critique of the companions. If the characters are likeable or not is more of a matter of personal taste.
I for one really enjoyed Linzi, Kaessi even Octavia and Tristian.
But other characters like Jaethal, Regongar or Harrim were a snooze fest most of the time to me. But they also never crossed the line of being annoying. Even with Amiri and Nok-Nok.
The fact that the game did not pretend that Amiri is some awesome character but presented her in pretty terrible light helped a lot.
If characters stay on the same level in Wrath of the Righteous meaning - not outstanding but serviceable I will be content.

 

[Yosharian]

Both Valerie and Amiri are not written to be likeable, I think it's pretty clear. Personally I like Jaethal, but I like her for being hedonistic undead mass murderer and steer her further on this path.

Probably, the horny sisters are more like traditional RPG heroines.

just that some of the criticims of them as mouthpieces for a particular agenda are overblown.

May be "misplaced" is the better word.

Kanerah and whatever the fuck her sister is called are also boring as fuck, and the concept of having two separate characters in one is just really annoying and too much work, especially considering Kineticist requires a fucking degree in nuclear physics to understand.

 

[Yosharian]

That's one interpretation, but even if that were the correct one, it still doesn't make this characters LIKEABLE. When considering who is in my party, I don't particularly care for POST-MODERN FEMINIST CRITIQUE as the main character points. People keep posting this interpretation like it's a devastating gotcha to the people who complain about these characters. But it is you who is missing the point entirely. I don't give a shit whether Amiri actually is a STRONG POWAFUL WOMYNZ character, or actually a clever critique on such a character. I am not interested in her either way. If I was given the choice (and a real choice, not Hobson's choice), I would hand her over to Nok-Nok to be sacrificed to Lamashtu at the earliest opportunity.

Yeah, I was only addressing the SJW critique of the companions. If the characters are likeable or not is more of a matter of personal taste.
I for one really enjoyed Linzi, Kaessi even Octavia and Tristian.
But other characters like Jaethal, Regongar or Harrim were a snooze fest most of the time to me. But they also never crossed the line of being annoying. Even with Amiri and Nok-Nok.
The fact that the game did not pretend that Amiri is some awesome character but presented her in pretty terrible light helped a lot.
If characters stay on the same level in Wrath of the Righteous meaning - not outstanding but serviceable I will be content.

And I will not. It is crucial that players should actually want characters in their party. Otherwise what's the fucking point. Take your clever character arcs and shove them up your arse, Owlcat. Give me the same thing again and I'll kill every one of them and hack in some free custom companions.

 

[Yosharian]

This is entirely the same problem that Obsidian had with the Pillars series. They were, and still are, entirely too obsessed with lecturing the player with smartass social commentary and pseudo-intellectual horseshit. That stuff can be fascinating if a writer with actual talent does it, but please, give me a fucking break. Tolstoy you are not, you pretentious fucks.