Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

And it all stems from what Desiderius said, his inability to see the party as a unit that shores up each other's weaknesses

that's out of scope of a single build, because what kind of party everyone prefers, the amount of party members and difficulty is very different. he just made some sustainable chars who reach some ab and some ac.

and I don't know what builds forum pnp players do, because most of whom I met at same forums can't remember how ac calculates or what ability works in melee or ranged or not.

InEffect played Unfair which is enough for me. he was the neanderthal of char building making cave art.

so stop being jelly and make your own thing if you're so good. you have whole new game coming soon to demonstrate your prowess.

Be specific, what did he do to Nok-Nok

gave him some barb levels afaik, to counter his bad ab on Unfair.

oh right, I assume he also finished the game, thus taking a different approach to theorycrafting to you and some others

 

[Yosharian]

Ew.

 

[Desiderius]

And it all stems from what Desiderius said, his inability to see the party as a unit that shores up each other's weaknesses

that's out of scope of a single build, because what kind of party everyone prefers, the amount of party members and difficulty is very different. he just made some sustainable chars who reach some ab and some ac.

and I don't know what builds forum pnp players do, because most of whom I met at same forums can't remember how ac calculates or what ability works in melee or ranged or not.

InEffect played Unfair which is enough for me. he was the neanderthal of char building making cave art.

so stop being jelly and make your own thing if you're so good. you have whole new game coming soon to demonstrate your prowess.

Be specific, what did he do to Nok-Nok

gave him some barb levels afaik, to counter his bad ab on Unfair.

oh right, I assume he also finished the game, thus taking a different approach to theorycrafting to you and some others

C'mon Shad, he would mercilessly (and in retrospect baselessly) trash the builds of Roahin (sp?) who was providing a couple great, thematic, team-based builds for each companion that could have served as a great starting point for a lot of people who instead were scared into (ineptly) minmaxxing just to try to survive in InEffect's blasted hellscape.

I caught him absolutely butchering a Linzi build by turning her into an Eldritch Knight (exactly the sort of shit Xam is talking about - Bard/Knights are still stuck with shitty spell progression, but InEffect was always desperate to squeeze out every point of damage he could), and he said he doesn't have time for buffing and debuffing since he just uses Stinking Cloud/rest spam to get through the game. That is in fact not trivial to do on Unfair, especially without any group buffs, but it's a shitty way to play the game, especially for someone putting himself in a position of authority over new players.

 

[Desiderius]

how would you build him instead? Just curious

Nok's an interesting little fucker, and sometimes he can just end up spending his time running from mob to mob not doing much while other toons are killing shit from range, spells, or Cleaves before he gets his licks in.

As with any 3/4 class four levels of a full BAB class can get you an extra attack at 20, but he already has a bazillion that he only gets in if (a) he hasn't moved that turn and (b) the mob doesn't die on the first 7 hits, which is not often. And you only pick up one AB per four levels so that doesn't make sense.

I've given him five Fighter levels for weapon training, specialization (and duelist gloves), the extra attack, and he even picks up another AC with armor training. But like I said that didn't work out to matter much. I did KM 10/Vanguard x to try to give the group some help but that was meh too.

Turns out that Advanced Rogue Talents are really good and so is super -8/-8 double debilitation so KM 16/x is probably the best thing you can do.

I'll probably figure out a way to get him Pounce this run if I use him. Maybe InEffect gave him some Barb lvls so he could wear Armag relic armor and the bite/trip cloak with Rage bite?

 

[Shadenuat]

yeah it's probably all the sneak bites as well.

C'mon Shad, he would mercilessly (and in retrospect baselessly) trash the builds of Rohain (sp?) who was providing a couple great, thematic, team-based builds for each companion that could have served as a great starting point for a lot of people who instead were scared into (ineptly) minmaxxing just to try to survive in InEffect's blasted hellscape.

if neanderthal minmaxing won over people it's not his fault, should have mustered better defence for other kind of builds then.
I personally made him change his opinion on Wizards I believe.

I caught him absolutely butchering a Linzi build by turning her into an Eldritch Knight

I turned her into barbarian so what

That is in fact not trivial to do on Unfair, especially without any group buffs, but it's a shitty way to play the game, especially for someone putting himself in a position of authority over new players.

who cares how he plays his game.

as long as it's not 6 pets on viv dipped mercenaries it's fine by me.

 

[DalekFlay]

Nothing like fighting through a bunch of centipedes who drain your DEX and using a bunch of restoration scrolls to be rewarded with a +1 natural armor item you haven't needed in dozens of hours.

 

[Desiderius]

And I played a fun Linzi Thug 4/AD 6/Bard6 with Disarming Strike that was hilarious. EK loses everything that makes a Bard good for what, 2AB? C'mon, you know that's just straight bad where Barb can do some fun things.

He was telling this to little kids who were all asking him for advice because he more or less dominated the GoG forums by the time I got there through sheer volume of stuff and bullying everybody else before we knew what was what. Just sucks to have a game with all sorts of options and he's shoehorning everyone into single-dimensional tank and spank.

And yes Stinking Cloud spam to exploit the Delay Poison implementation as Poison Immunity is a shitty way to play the game, especially when you're sitting there missing the nauseated mobs 80% of the time which he must have been doing.

 

[Pink Eye]

yeah it's probably all the sneak bites as well.

C'mon Shad, he would mercilessly (and in retrospect baselessly) trash the builds of Rohain (sp?) who was providing a couple great, thematic, team-based builds for each companion that could have served as a great starting point for a lot of people who instead were scared into (ineptly) minmaxxing just to try to survive in InEffect's blasted hellscape.

if neanderthal minmaxing won over people it's not his fault, should have mustered better defence for other kind of builds then.
I personally made him change his opinion on Wizards I believe.

I caught him absolutely butchering a Linzi build by turning her into an Eldritch Knight

I turned her into barbarian so what

That is in fact not trivial to do on Unfair, especially without any group buffs, but it's a shitty way to play the game, especially for someone putting himself in a position of authority over new players.

who cares how he plays his game.

as long as it's not 6 pets on viv dipped mercenaries it's fine by me.

>if neanderthal minmaxing won over people it's not his fault
It's because a lot of people who started, didn't understand the system. People are lazy. Instead of figuring out the system, they'd rather copy what someone else did. Ineffect promotes bad build making habits. His builds are abominations. They throw out competent class building in favor of min maxxing. It's like seeing people dip monk into fifty different classes. At that point, it stops being a monk, and becomes an abomination.

>as long as it's not 6 pets on viv dipped mercenaries it's fine by me.
Deadly earth and stinking cloud are both lazy ways to play the game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Is there any Pathfinder site where it is possible to search spells by some secondary criteria? Like, "sort by average damage made". Or "all the spells attacking fortitude save". Or "all the spells protecting will save". Something like that.

 

[Desiderius]

So Hargulka unfair didn't go as planned. Touch of Chaos whiffed letting Hargulka pass 6 straight Will checks at 50/50 instead of 25/75. Then this happened:

Harrim takes one for the team as first level spell swings the fight (the blank ability there in the combat log is Owlcat stunned that someone finally used the spell for the first time). Stunned Hargulka was a sitting duck and we finally landed s spell to put him away for good:

Pretty crappy DC at this point (Tartuk's helm will help that), Linzi was on 19 - she'll get ring of Reckless Courage since she's ranged. Accidently killed Tartuk first so missed some good dialogue that probably hoses the Nyrissa romance. Not happening for this LG MC anyway.

Back home always good to find out you didn't miss a piece of the helm. Will come in very handy at Goblin Village/VTomb. Also a way to get Good Hope without a Bard.



Nice to autopass all Trickery checks in the game:



Displacer Wolf Val stepping out for the first time. Still work to do:

Accidently beating Frederico unbuffed with her pet:

 

[Xamenos]

Be specific, what did he do to Nok-Nok and how would you build him instead? Just curious

He gave him 8! levels of Barb. Desiderius already covered why this is far from optimal and what would be some better multiclass options. So I'm just gonna compare him to a Rogue 20:

InEffect's Nok Nok at L20:
17 BAB
6d8 Sneak Attack
Rage
Some Damage Reduction that YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT AT ALL. ARGHH!

Nok Nok Kinfe Master 20:
15 BAB
10d8 Sneak Attack
Rogue Talents. They're good.

Comparing the two:
InEffect's gets +2BAB and 2 extra attacks, a bite at -5 and an iterative one at -15. Rage gives him an extra +3 Attack, +2 Damage, -3 AC. He also gets some Damage Reduction that, I repeat, does not help anything, at all. And some speed, for some reason.
A KM20 gets +4d8 Sneak, his Debilitating Injury gives a -8 penalty instead of a -6, and Double Debilitation allows him to debuff both his target's AC and AB at the same time. The better DI essentially cancels out InEffect's extra BAB. The extra iterative attack realistically only hits on an (uncomfirmed) crit or 3/10 of the time, and only if the opponent hasn't exploded by then, and is pretty thoroughly outcompeted by the extra damage on the first attacks of a KM20. The Rage bonuses and bite attack are legit, but very much not worth losing 8 levels of Rogue for. A KM16/Barb4 would be justifiable, but even then losing 2 sneak dice and some Rogue Talents means it's not strictly and unequivocally better.

Reading through his guides again, I remembered more of this lunacy:

Octavia: He gives her 2 useless Alchemist levels, when the cardinal rule of building full casters is "Thou shalt not lose caster level needlessly". He also recommends Disintegrate, which betrays a hilarious lack of understanding of how she works. At L12, Disintegrate, with a fort save, deals 22d6 + 5d6 Sneak. Meanwhile, the humble Scorching Ray deals 12d6 +15d6 Sneak with no save. At L16, Hellfire Ray starts firing off a second ray and takes over as "the absolute best use of your spell slots and actions". Disintegrate deals marginally better damage at the levels after Scorching Ray has stopped scaling and before Hellfire Ray comes online. But the fort save makes it almost always worse, even then.

Linzi: Other than that fucking rogue level, he stops leveling her as a bard so she can shoot better with a fucking crossbow. A crossbow! Do I even need to explain why this is beyond retarded?

Kalikke and Kanerah: Again with the useless class dip that gains nothing. Again with the writeup that hilariously misses the point of what makes a class good. He even managed to fail giving Cloud to Kanerah for good measure.

I could go on, but I've wasted enough time already.

who cares how he plays his game.

I don't care about how he plays his game. I care that A) any time a newbie asked for a build advice he was told to follow these abominations, and B) any time someone DARED to criticise InEffect's idiocy, morons like you came out of the woodwork to defend your lord and saviour's honour.

missed some good dialogue that probably hoses the Nyrissa romance.

You're still good to go if you get Vordakai AND Armag.

 

[Desiderius]

At L16, Hellfire Ray starts firing off a second ray and takes over as "the absolute best use of your spell slots and actions"

Here's Hellfire hilariously misapplied, but still destroying:

If he got Pounce on that Nok Barb he lucked into something decent.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I know only one direct InEffect critic who wrote at least some alternative, and he is Pink Eye. The rest build publishers did not clash with InEffect. If you think you're so smart - go use InEffect's template and write your variants. At least for the companions, because he covered all of them.

Unfortunately, I do not have the launch codes for Iskanders to make you do that.

 

[Desiderius]

I know only one direct InEffect critic who wrote at least some alternative, and he is Pink Eye. The rest build publishers did not clash with InEffect. If you think you're so smart - go use InEffect's template and write your variants. At least for the companions, because he covered all of them.

Unfortunately, I do not have the launch codes for Iskanders to make you do that.

I've done that extensively, and of course there's Roahin in his own forum, but to focus on individual builds in a vacuum is to miss the entire point. The most effective strategies (pure nuking aside) in the game are group strategies - buffs/debuffs and/or group synergies. Yes, effectiveness isn't the end-all and be-all, but it is to him, and he mercilessly derides anyone for whom it isn't, while utterly sucking at it himself.

My sense is that the game is designed to subvert the tank/spank/heal triumvirate that has suffocated too much good game design. InEffect is oblivious to there being any alternative in the first place.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I've done that extensively

So where can I read your sample party build? Your favourite companions, your favourite main character, short description of the sinergy you're building for, feats and spells on level-ups. May I have a link, please?

 

[Shadenuat]

Disintegrate deals marginally better damage at the levels after Scorching Ray has stopped scaling and before Hellfire Ray comes online. But the fort save makes it almost always worse, even then.

Its damage is not resisted like fire (enemies like endgame troll or main boss just don't care for fire for example)
It finishes off some rare things with regen
Your enemies often lack high fortitude saves, as they are fey, thus making it a very decent spell.
Taking spell spec in it adds +4d6 damage so I don't see why pew pewing it is a bad idea, I killed a lot of things with it.

Other than that fucking rogue level, he stops leveling her as a bard so she can shoot better with a fucking crossbow

That's not the idea. The thing what he does is uses her as a ranged dazzler by taking weapon spec. Bard 7 is not a bad time to multi, that's when you get Good Hope?

Again with the useless class dip that gains nothing.

Fire kinetic dazzler/carnage with Thug is hilariously op if I remember. However I am not sure that is his build, he might have picked up the idea from Daidre. Extra sneak damage is quite useful early.

I don't care about how he plays his game. I care that A) any time a newbie asked for a build advice he was told to follow these abominations, and B) any time someone DARED to criticise InEffect's idiocy, morons like you came out of the woodwork to defend your lord and saviour's honour.

On the contrary, you seem to care very much

 

[Shadenuat]

I've done that extensively

So where can I read your sample party build? Your favourite companions, your favourite main character, short description of the sinergy you're building for, feats and spells on level-ups. May I have a link, please?

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...nd-strats-thread.124160/page-118#post-6183906

Frankly I find the amount of classes so overwhelming that in 1000 h play I didn't even find enough time to multiclass lol.

As for companions, they all worked for me out of the box except valerie who I always just changed to magus or bard or anything. I did turn harim into barb bear druid, val into bard, val into ABYSSAL magus, linzi into barb, undead waifu also into bard and BLACK DRAGON BITE GIRL, amiri into thug/slayer, octavia actually wanted to turn her into duelist once.

In this new gaem however, I am going to multiclass like a total retard just to get most lulz out of the system. sadly there is no linzi anymore, so my knife master mammoth riding barbarian linzi would not come to be; but if there will be a halfling companion, I AM puttin them on a MAMMOTH with a LANCE and horned helmet and big shield.

 

[Pink Eye]

Lol I am a boring person. I won't be multiclassing in the next game. I will be going pure monk.

 

[Efe]

shad need a chill pill?

The most effective strategies (pure nuking aside) in the game are group strategies - buffs/debuffs and/or group synergies

this is the core of what hes saying and it is correct.

also i dont understand why you would need a BARD to be a dazzler when being a bard accomplishes that better

 

[Shadenuat]

Not sure what you mean, dazling is -2 saves, bard song is fascinate so for caster bard it's not terrible to have. But I guess InEffect doesn't know the beauty of sonic spells and cacophonous call, he never liked Bard CC.

I otoh was always enamoured with any CC I could find and find Shout, and Greater Shout best shit evah.

this is the core of what hes saying and it is correct.

In practice degenerate tactics are more effective than party synergies in PK.

Lol I am a boring person. I won't be multiclassing in the next game. I will be going pure monk.

But you have more than 1 character. What shall you do?

 

[LannTheStupid]

I am seeing disturbing discordance between people who actively criticize InEffect and people who write builds.

 

[Shadenuat]

TBH I never did "builds". I think up fun retarded larp concepts and play them. I only care for effectiveness for bare minimum of performance, and if character compliments some requirement for the overall party. Calculating ab dmg and ac is not what I find fun unless it is required.

Ultimately, I don't even like builds, as is, the idea that you can preplan an ideal character to beat anything. For me ideally game should check every resource you have available and some enemies should be just straight unbeatable by some classes.

An ideal "building" for me would be if during game my paladin falls and loses powers and has to progress in another class and I have to salvage him. Or one character is taken away from you and you have to dual class someone else to take care of business he did. Now that sort of multiclassing is exciting to me.

But calculcating if scorching rays (which you can use to 1 shot some shit, unless they're immune) or hellfire ray (which you can obviously use to one shot some shit) or disintigrate (which you can use to 1 shot some shit, I remember posting pictur of my octavia doing it to worm man?) or polar ray (which, btw, is great at one shotting some shit who would have guessed) which does more damage dice is so banal I don't care.

 

[NJClaw]

An ideal "building" for me would be if during game my paladin falls and loses powers and has to progress in another class and I have to salvage him. Or one character is taken away from you and you have to dual class someone else to take care of business he did. Now that sort of multiclassing is exciting to me.

That's something you can't really do in 3.x. If they take away your 11th level wizard and to solve the situation you take a sorcerer level with your paladin, you won't do much with your magic missile and sleep spells to compensate for the missing wall of stone and dominate person

 

[Shadenuat]

Well you can begin building another character who you might not have liked as much, but find something new with them then.

Yeah it's no dual classing from AD&D. I remember some funny dumb stuff you could do in BG, like feeding Xzar books of Wisdom to dual him into Cleric.

 

[Xamenos]

I know only one direct InEffect critic who wrote at least some alternative, and he is Pink Eye. The rest build publishers did not clash with InEffect. If you think you're so smart - go use InEffect's template and write your variants. At least for the companions, because he covered all of them.

Unfortunately, I do not have the launch codes for Iskanders to make you do that.

Oh, fuck off. "Make a better one yourself if you're so smart" is the laziest and stupidest way to dismiss criticism ever. I can tell you that Fallout 3 sucks without making an entire game, or that The Last Jedi was an abomination without having to direct my own movie.

Its damage is not resisted like fire (enemies like endgame troll or main boss just don't care for fire for example)
It finishes off some rare things with regen
Your enemies often lack high fortitude saves, as they are fey, thus making it a very decent spell.
Taking spell spec in it adds +4d6 damage so I don't see why pew pewing it is a bad idea, I killed a lot of things with it.

At Octavia's level 14, with spell specialization, Disintegrate deals 30d6 + 6d6 sneak. At the same level, a spell spec'd Hellfire Ray would get a second ray and deal 30d6+12d6 sneak, half of it irresistible. There are some levels and enemies where Disintegrate is marginally better, as I said, but you do not want to give your opponents a chance to save if you can. Even if their saves aren't that great.

You can absolutely kill stuff with it. It's not a bad spell, by any means. It's just second best at what it does. You're not wrong for using a suboptimal choice, and you can finish your game with it. But a guide is supposed to give the best options, or explain why it doesn't. And InEffect seemed completely oblivious to the fact, and completely resistant to change.

That's not the idea. The thing what he does is uses her as a ranged dazzler by taking weapon spec. Bard 7 is not a bad time to multi, that's when you get Good Hope?

I will just quote the man himself:

With this build-up she will also be able to shoot stuff when she is not casting and will be moderately competent at that task. That is more than can be said about pure bards.

Crossbows are chosen for their crit range for the most part. We would like to reap the most benefits from Eldritch Knight.

Fire kinetic dazzler/carnage with Thug is hilariously op if I remember. However I am not sure that is his build, he might have picked up the idea from Daidre. Extra sneak damage is quite useful early.

Kineticist damage ALSO scales with class levels, with a progression better than Sneak Attack for any blast other than a single-target energy blast where it's equivalent. 1 rogue level early delays your Kineticist progression, making your damage worse at ever single level other than L20 where Kinetic Blast maxes out. And then you only have a single, measly, extra d6 to show for it.

And Dreadful Carnage has a max range of 30 feet. Great for a melee character who is in the front lines. Not so great for a ranged DPS who is supposed to be as far from the frontlines as possible. Kineticists get enough extra feats that it can still be done without losing anything important, but the Thug dip makes the character worse.

On the contrary, you seem to care very much

Again, for the terminally retarded among us: InEffect is free to play however he wants, no matter how stupid it is. You are free to do the same. What I take issue with is arguing that his builds are objectively good (they aren't), or that newbies should follow them if they want to git gud (they really shouldn't).