Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

I play unmodded until I've mastered the existing content. Not there yet.

Sensei MC Bardless up next.

 

[NJClaw]

Increase the animation speeds and use TB 100% of the time...

It's not only about animation speed, it's mainly that some fights have nothing interesting about them and I really don't care about TB if everything I would do is "everyone attacks X".

 

[Haplo]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

 

[Desiderius]

Val getting 13 int for Combat Expertise feat

If you want to do Combat Maneuvers on Val just use Kinetic Knight for the pre-req.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

there's probably going to be a patch soon for

Spoiler

new april fools jokes

 

[DalekFlay]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

Targeting AoE effects to miss allies is part of the challenge in RtwP though, and something the game was balanced around. Typically the damage/effectiveness of those spells is designed around how hard they can be to pull off.

 

[NJClaw]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

Targeting AoE effects to miss allies is part of the challenge in RtwP though, and something the game was balanced around. Typically the damage/effectiveness of those spells is designed around how hard they can be to pull off.

I mean, you can't seriously believe that. There is no mathematical way to calculate the impact that rtwp can have on area spells, at least that I know of.

The damage of area spells is not designed around how hard they can be to pull of, it's simply the damage of Pathfinder spells. They didn't change anything.

I agree that the game gets easier with TB, but "the game was balanced around aiming fireballs" is complete bullshit.

 

[Haplo]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

Targeting AoE effects to miss allies is part of the challenge in RtwP though, and something the game was balanced around. Typically the damage/effectiveness of those spells is designed around how hard they can be to pull off.

No, they were copied from the Pathfinder tabletop system, which is... turn based *SHOCK* and certainly not balanced around aiming fireballs at enemies moving in real time.

 

[Erebus]

I still don't understand the point of having two versions of the House that you can travel between by using the mist. It really doesn't add anything interesting to the place.

It adds to the confusion and being in an otherworldly place where you don't belong.

My main problem with the House really is that it's not weird enough. It feels like I'm exploring elven ruins instead of a purely illogical place set in the world of faeries.

The teleporting mist adds confusion, but it doesn't really add atmosphere. Both versions of the House look the same and have you encounter the same types of enemies.

I know it was much worse originally, but fighting ghostly guards and the Wild Hunt is still a chore. I didn't mind repetitive fights in Vordakai's dungeon, but now that the player is getting close to the end, there shouldn't be so many bland encounters. Having more non-hostile encounters and developing the boss fights would have been much better for the atmosphere.

The loot doesn't help either. Half of it is useless, the other half consists of items that would have been nice at the beginning of Act 5 but now leave you completely indifferent. Very little contributes to the atmosphere (Nyrissa's books are one of the few exceptions, but I'm not going to be patient enough to find all of them).

 

[Sykar]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

Targeting AoE effects to miss allies is part of the challenge in RtwP though, and something the game was balanced around. Typically the damage/effectiveness of those spells is designed around how hard they can be to pull off.

No, they were copied from the Pathfinder tabletop system, which is... turn based *SHOCK* and certainly not balanced around aiming fireballs at enemies moving in real time.

There is AoE which is partly friendly and for opening it does not matter. Once the front lines have been established you can usually and safely hurl your AoEs into the enemie's backrow anyway. Think the problem is highly overblown by you.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

Targeting AoE effects to miss allies is part of the challenge in RtwP though, and something the game was balanced around. Typically the damage/effectiveness of those spells is designed around how hard they can be to pull off.

No, they were copied from the Pathfinder tabletop system, which is... turn based *SHOCK* and certainly not balanced around aiming fireballs at enemies moving in real time.

Not copied, adapted. Six > four. Hitting moving targets is at the heart of the immersion advantage cRPGs offer over tabletop.

Only Amish Luddite Stick-in-the-Mud Geezers like TB.

 

[DalekFlay]

I mean, you can't seriously believe that. There is no mathematical way to calculate the impact that rtwp can have on area spells, at least that I know of.

The damage of area spells is not designed around how hard they can be to pull of, it's simply the damage of Pathfinder spells. They didn't change anything.

Don't know or care about the PnP game, but how on Earth could you argue that targeting spells to avoid player characters in a RtwP game isn't a skill, or a challenge in certain circumstances, or at least a factor in planning and placement? If it wasn't then "controlled fireball" wouldn't exist, and Dragon Age 2 wouldn't have gotten endless shit for removing it as a concern. It is absolutely part of RtwP games that you have to carefully place and manage AoE spells, and it is absolutely something turn-based games largely don't suffer from as much.

 

[Desiderius]

There is AoE which is partly friendly and for opening it does not matter. Once the front lines have been established you can usually and safely hurl your AoEs into the enemie's backrow anyway. Think the problem is highly overblown by you.

It's not trivial. Tristian in Womb Spider Cave with ambushes and the like got hairy in a way it wouldn't with TB. It's a reason I tend to prefer enemies only spells like Slow.

 

[NJClaw]

Well, TB enables much more precise aiming of aoe spells, optimal positioning for Kineticist Whirwind and so on.
I've found I started using like twice so many spells as usual when in TB. Game mechanics became more rich and suddenly all chars were important, not just the main char.

Targeting AoE effects to miss allies is part of the challenge in RtwP though, and something the game was balanced around. Typically the damage/effectiveness of those spells is designed around how hard they can be to pull off.

No, they were copied from the Pathfinder tabletop system, which is... turn based *SHOCK* and certainly not balanced around aiming fireballs at enemies moving in real time.

Not copied, adapted. Six > four. Hitting moving targets is at the heart of the immersion advantage cRPGs offer over tabletop.

Only Amish Luddite Stick-in-the-Mud Geezers like TB.

We are not arguing about the TB/RTwP topic, we are simply stating that it's impossible developers took balance decisions taking into consideration the need to aim spells in a real-time environment.

I mean, you can't seriously believe that. There is no mathematical way to calculate the impact that rtwp can have on area spells, at least that I know of.

The damage of area spells is not designed around how hard they can be to pull of, it's simply the damage of Pathfinder spells. They didn't change anything.

Don't know or care about the PnP game, but how on Earth could you argue that targeting spells to avoid player characters in a RtwP game isn't a skill, or a challenge in certain circumstances, or at least a factor in planning and placement? If it wasn't then "controlled fireball" wouldn't exist, and Dragon Age 2 wouldn't have gotten endless shit for removing it as a concern. It is absolutely part of RtwP games that you have to carefully place and manage AoE spells, and it is absolutely something turn-based games largely don't suffer from as much.

I don't know if I didn't manage to explain myself or if you didn't read my post, because your answer has literally nothing to do with what I said.

You say I can't argue that "targeting spells to avoid player characters in a RtwP game isn't a skill" and I agree with you. Indeed, I'm not saying anything like that. I mean, i explicitly said that "I agree that the game gets easier with TB", because obviously aiming area spells is a skill you need to master.
I honestly can't understand how this is what you got from my post.

I'm saying that developers didn't take balance decisions based on the fact that you need to aim area spells, because it's not something you can quantify.

 

[Desiderius]

I still don't understand the point of having two versions of the House that you can travel between by using the mist. It really doesn't add anything interesting to the place.

It adds to the confusion and being in an otherworldly place where you don't belong.

My main problem with the House really is that it's not weird enough. It feels like I'm exploring elven ruins instead of a purely illogical place set in the world of faeries.

The teleporting mist adds confusion, but it doesn't really add atmosphere. Both versions of the House look the same and have you encounter the same types of enemies.

I know it was much worse originally, but fighting ghostly guards and the Wild Hunt is still a chore. I didn't mind repetitive fights in Vordakai's dungeon, but now that the player is getting close to the end, there shouldn't be so many bland encounters. Having more non-hostile encounters and developing the boss fights would have been much better for the atmosphere.

The loot doesn't help either. Half of it is useless, the other half consists of items that would have been nice at the beginning of Act 5 but now leave you completely indifferent. Very little contributes to the atmosphere (Nyrissa's books are one of the few exceptions, but I'm not going to be patient enough to find all of them).

This.

Desperately trying to finish my Slayer -> Eldritch Archer MC playthrough so I'll have a lvl 20 save to use for testing and it's such a slog just trying to figure out where things stood and what mattered and it was only a month ago.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm saying that developers didn't take balance decisions based on the fact that you need to aim area spells, because it's not something you can quantify.

Yes, we're saying you're wrong and that even you can tell now that you've painted yourself into such an absurd corner.

What has quantity to do with art?

The devs spoke to this exact issue in the WotR Q&A.

 

[Erebus]

I'm done with the House, woohoo ! Having two versions of the place really turned up to be fucking unnecessary : Nyrissa's version has all the important stuff and the normal version, as far as I can tell, has nothing of interest. Removing most of the fights from the normal House and replacing them with weird, non-hostile encounters would at least have contributed to the atmosphere.

As for what comes after the House :

Spoiler

The part where you gather your allies and fight enemies of the past is not hugely original, but it works well. And facing enemies other than the Wild Hunt and their pals was enjoyable.

The curse weakening you is a nice idea, as it forces you to fight without the strength (and the spells !) you've grown used to. The way you can progressively regain your power is also nicely done.

The jabberwock was surprisingly easy to kill.

Now I'm ready to fight the Lantern King, kick his burning ass and finish the game ! Oh, looks like I first have to fight a few more of those Wild Hunt pricks... and a few more... and more... I fucking hate them... oh, a Wild Hunt monarch, that's kind of new... die, asshole ! Where's the Storyteller ? I need to rest ! Oh, there he is. And he's telling me that I'm far from done. Woohoo.

Well, I was sure that I would finish this game today, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow/

 

[Jackpot]

I'm done with the House, woohoo ! Having two versions of the place really turned up to be fucking unnecessary : Nyrissa's version has all the important stuff and the normal version, as far as I can tell, has nothing of interest. Removing most of the fights from the normal House and replacing them with weird, non-hostile encounters would at least have contributed to the atmosphere.

I'm at the house now.
Completely agree with you. Clearing out the first house was pretty fun and a significant increase to the encounter difficulty. After I started clearing out the second house every encounter just became frustrating.
Probably was a lot worse because I try to make it as far as I can without resting and end up resetting on a bunch of counters trying to beat them without buffs, summons, or high levels spells.

 

[Desiderius]

I got it completely cleared now have to figure out all the key nonsense. Was it a bad idea to just take out Knurly Guy immediately?

 

[Erebus]

I got it completely cleared now have to figure out all the key nonsense. Was it a bad idea to just take out Knurly Guy immediately?

I just killed the witch and the worm guy as soon as I met them. They both ask you to kill the other, but I was sure that they'd end up betraying me if I did.

Linzi gives you a clue regarding the third key.

Spoiler

There's a place in the basement (at the end of a corridor leading south-east, if I remember correctly) where you have to travel through the mist to reach a location that is otherwise unreachable. After a fight, you'll get the third key.

The door you need to open is on the second floor, close to the well.

 

[DalekFlay]

I'm saying that developers didn't take balance decisions based on the fact that you need to aim area spells, because it's not something you can quantify.

We're probably just communicating badly, but my point was that AoE spells have to offer something safer and more targeted spells do not, otherwise it isn't worth the effort to use them. It is definitely part of game balance to account for that kind of difference, between group attacks that target only enemies and group attacks that don't. How the PnP game accounts for that I have no idea, but it definitely does (or should) effect game balance. Therefore the TB mod would throw off that balance.

I just did a certain fight in a barbarian camp and had the wise idea to cast acid pit on the three casters, but it was hell managing the fight later on when melee characters needed to attack them. That kind of scenario wouldn't be a thing in TB, because I could always move the characters to the perfect spots.

Anyway, I thought that's what we were debating. Maybe wires got crossed.

 

[Desiderius]

Here's a way to build a Crusader. Unfortunately I respecced it in a playthrough that doesn't have access to Lion's Claw. Stats are off because you can't wear equipment during respec. Would actually have 4 more WIS and the extra Spells to go with it.

Heavy Armor should probably be Weapon Spec. Sorc is probably too cute - used it for bonus feat Extend Metamagic. Got hooked on it from Tristian starting with it. Some things you can do:

If you don't like the spell in your Domain slot, replace it with one you do. Could have just gotten Extend normally then splashed a Fighter level late to catch up on the combat feats.

Heroism, Greater gets obsoleted by Heroic Invocation from Petal Glaive in Pitax Palace.

36 hour +4 Magical Vestments? Don't mind if I do. Frees up lvl 3 slots for other goodness.

20 rounds of +3/+3 or Grace. Let me think about it.

Some other weapons you could build toward, including a Light Shield Finesse option if you'd like to go that way:

Does that Bow give gaze immunity?

Is this Scythe Jaethot's reward for sparing her daughter?

Death Ward at will? Sign me up.

 

[Nerevar]

I like the monk 2/Crusader 18 a bit better.

Is this your go to unfair PC build?

 

[Desiderius]

I like the monk 2/Crusader 18 a bit better.

Is this your go to unfair PC build?

I try to test every class before passing judgement on it.

I thought Crusader was useless. I was wrong. It's narrow but there is a lot of synergy there. You're using your action economy to attack rather than cast or heal, so it feels like you've got a ton of spells.

As for Monk, best defense is a good offense, and you're not getting WIS to AC with a shield.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't have a go to PC. I like trying different things. So far Hospitaler, CleaveBooter, Ranged Slayer/Eldritch Scoundrel, and now Archaeologist/Grenadier have all been good.

Best play experience is to have one of the four group support classes (Bard, Cleric, Freebooter, Alchemist) as you MC so your group makeup has more flexibility.

Next up Sensei Bardless.