Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[DalekFlay]

Heyo, big time difficulty spike in Vordakai's Tomb. Hopefully 20 restoration scrolls are enough. Shouldn't have given in and let Tristian come, he has fuck all DPS.

I'll finish it in the morning (hopefully!).

 

[Haplo]

I'm saying that developers didn't take balance decisions based on the fact that you need to aim area spells, because it's not something you can quantify.

Yes, we're saying you're wrong and that even you can tell now that you've painted yourself into such an absurd corner.

What has quantity to do with art?

The devs spoke to this exact issue in the WotR Q&A.

Its a stupid point in a game that is based on a Turn Based system.
6 and not 4? What kind of argument that even is? Which book specifies "thou shalt play with FOUR colleagues, not more and not less"?
Sure, the CR system is built assuming a 4-man party, but its a guideline for DMs, not something set in stone. And in any case Kingmaker has thrown the CR system to the trash bin regardless.
Yeah, the devs MAYBE thought what will be easier and what will be harder real time. But its not like they built the game balance around manually aiming fireballs.
Would be stupid anyway, cast Fire resist, have decent reflex and you can freely nuke your front line regardless.

 

[AwesomeButton]

What party composition would you recommend for a custom party run on Challenging?

What are the main factors I should be considering when looking for good multiclassing opportunities?

 

[NJClaw]

What party composition would you recommend for a custom party run on Challenging?

What are the main factors I should be considering when looking for good multiclassing opportunities?

Almost anything can work on challenging, so it mainly depends on what is more fun to you. If you have any idea about what you would like to play (i don't know, usually for me it's "I want a Paladin archer in my group" or "I want a Druid"), we can start from there and build a functional and synergic party.

Any group with a couple frontliners (Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, Magus, any animal companion...), an arcane and a divine caster can breeze through the game, so it's just a matter of covering as many roles you can with each character: a Sylvan Sorcerer gives you both an arcane caster and a frontliner, a Cleric with the Nature domain gives you both a divine caster and a frontliner (potentially two frontliner, depending on the build), a Vivisectionist gives you both an amazing damage dealer and a great buffer for your party (with the unique +4 shield bonus to AC from Shield and the semi-unique Barkskin).
Again, if you have any idea we can start from, then we can help you build your party.

Regarding multiclassing, just avoid multiclassing your casters as much as possible: gained benefits are rarely worth the slower spells progression. On your "fighter" guys you are much more free to experiment, since usually you can gain a lot from just a couple of levels in another class. Magus (Eldritch Scion), Paladin and Monk (Scaled Fist) are three classes that work very well together, since they all use Charisma for something. A Monk level is great on any Wisdom-based character that want's to go melee (so Druid, Cleric, Inquisitor).

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm on a first, "role-playing" playthrough now, but for a second playthrough I want to go into metagaming builds as a game within the game. Would the right difficulty be Unfair for that then?

From what you say, it seems one factor I should be looking at is which are the leading ability scores for classes, when looking for good multiclassing combinations. From then on, another factor may be the specific property I want to specialize them in according to the role in the party - maybe how to best increase the number of attacks, or defensive abilities and AC, or trace the fastest path to the best party buffs/enemy debuffs? I'm really looking for the metrics to watch, I want to discover the good builds on my own. I tried watching videos, they contain some good ideas, but making build decisions with knowledge of the underlying logic is more fun than just copying a build from youtube.

 

[Haplo]

If you want to powergame, a monk dip is great on any melee....


Also pay attention to party synergies.
Some examples to give you some inspirations:

Outflank on all melees is crazily good (get it ASAP at level 5, maybe 7 for some slower BAB progression characters), particularly when using wide crit threat range weapons, preferably keen or with improved critical.

Shaken status can be affected in several ways and then Shatter Defenses will make enemies your bitches.
Also Blind makes enemies flat-footed (like from Glitterdust).

A Freebooter can provide up to +7 AB.

A Bard can provide up to +7 AB and like +7 skillchecks.

Tristan can provide up to +10 skills/attack rolls/saves (for 1 round per use only... - but enough to pass any skillcheck; unlimited +2).

After enemies get up from Prone (Grease, Trip), you get attacks of opportunity. With Greater Trip also when they fall.

Shock Kineticist's Magnetic Infusion lowers enemy AC by 4.

 

[Pink Eye]

I can not speak for spell casters, but I can speak for martial based builds. If you're looking to power game there are two things you must consider. Feats and bonus stacking. Feats are by far the most strongest resource in the game. They allow your character to perform acts that they normally wouldn't be able to do. They're an invaluable means of directly increasing your character's strength. Knowing what feats to pick, knowing how they synergy with each other; that understanding is what will allow you to create strong builds. They're kind of like an investment. Picking poor feats will hamper your character's ability. While this sounds rudimentary at first, you'd be surprised at how complicated and deep it really is. For instance, most of my monk builds rely on the power attack + dragon style synergy. Without that combo, my monks would do fuck all for damage at the low levels. I didn't discover that synergy till hours and hours of playing the game. There are countless such feats that will facilitate your character to perform even more extraordinary acts.

The other thing worth discussing is bonus stacking. This one should be self explanatory. The more unique bonuses you have, the easier it will be to attack enemies, and the harder it will be for enemies to hit you. You should have some understanding of how this one works. For example, some buffs don't stack with each other, while others do. The same principle applies to stacking bonuses. The general rule is that named bonuses don't stack(Except for special cases like Dodge), while untyped bonuses do stack.

Lastly, we should discuss multiclassing. It should go without saying that some class combos work really good with each other. While other class combos don't. I think learning what works, and what doesn't; is far more fun then reading a guide. So go out and discover. Trust me it's more satisfying to learn on your own, than to read a guide. That enjoyment of self discovery is amazing, by discovering things on your own. It will stick with you for your next playthrough. Reading guides is nice, sure, but you'll likely forget the information and will have to refer back to it each time. While if you were to discover that "OP" build on your own means; then you will remember it fondly, as it was you yourself that discovered it.

Anyways me personally I find Fighter, Slayer, Freebooter, to be strong combos to multi into. Fighter gives free feats. Slayer and Freebooter gives you the ability to stack unique bonuses against enemies.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Glad to see you back, Pink Eye.

 

[Pink Eye]

Glad to see you back, Pink Eye.

I realized that alpha for Wrath is in a couple of weeks. So I am back!

 

[Yosharian]

I'm on a first, "role-playing" playthrough now, but for a second playthrough I want to go into metagaming builds as a game within the game. Would the right difficulty be Unfair for that then?

From what you say, it seems one factor I should be looking at is which are the leading ability scores for classes, when looking for good multiclassing combinations. From then on, another factor may be the specific property I want to specialize them in according to the role in the party - maybe how to best increase the number of attacks, or defensive abilities and AC, or trace the fastest path to the best party buffs/enemy debuffs? I'm really looking for the metrics to watch, I want to discover the good builds on my own. I tried watching videos, they contain some good ideas, but making build decisions with knowledge of the underlying logic is more fun than just copying a build from youtube.

It might help to level a character to 20 and physically (well, not literally, but you get the idea) go through the process of levelling a build to get an idea of available feats and so on.

There's instructions in my Steam page on how to do that.

 

[Pink Eye]

Json edits is how I cheat a character to level 20. It's simple, easy, and faster than using some mod. Here is a guide for that: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1531104390

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Heavy Armor should probably be Weapon Spec

In truth, whacking people with a spare suit of armour sounds rather handy.

 

[Yosharian]

Json edits is how I cheat a character to level 20. It's simple, easy, and faster than using some mod. Here is a guide for that: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1531104390

I mean that's exactly what's written in my Steam page but OK

 

[Desiderius]

It might help to level a character to 20 and physically (well, not literally, but you get the idea) go through the process of levelling a build to get an idea of available feats and so on.

There's instructions in my Steam page on how to do that.

You can always just load up an old save and respec, but there are problems with that approach like I ran into last night.

 

[Desiderius]

What party composition would you recommend for a custom party run on Challenging?

What are the main factors I should be considering when looking for good multiclassing opportunities?

In this game mercs are significantly gimped compared to companions; the powergaming move is to use the companions. If you enjoy IWD-style parties then go merc but don't think you're pwning the casuals.

I recommend having some variety of Bard20, Freebooter (10 lvls is enough so this is a good class for multiclassing), Cleric20, and Alchemist20 to create a field of +30 (or more)/-10 on all rolls eventually. Even by lvl 5 the effect will be noticeable. Other two can be anything.

 

[Desiderius]

Its a stupid point in a game that is based on a Turn Based system.
6 and not 4? What kind of argument that even is? Which book specifies "thou shalt play with FOUR colleagues, not more and not less"?
Sure, the CR system is built assuming a 4-man party, but its a guideline for DMs, not something set in stone. And in any case Kingmaker has thrown the CR system to the trash bin regardless.
Yeah, the devs MAYBE thought what will be easier and what will be harder real time. But its not like they built the game balance around manually aiming fireballs.
Would be stupid anyway, cast Fire resist, have decent reflex and you can freely nuke your front line regardless.

The kind of argument the devs used when explaining their game design.

Y'all are making it way too complicated. Of course it's harder to hit a moving target than a stationary one. It's the whole reason for RT in the first place.

All about trade-offs, the resources RT has to spend protecting their own frontline (and Resist isn't really doing it if you're a decent nuker), and TB doesn't, are resources they don't have available for other things. That includes the need to set up a static frontline and all that goes into that.

 

[Erebus]

I'm on a first, "role-playing" playthrough now, but for a second playthrough I want to go into metagaming builds as a game within the game. Would the right difficulty be Unfair for that then?

If your first playthrough is on Challenging, you should probably try at least the beginning of the game (the introduction and part of Act 1) on Hard before you attempt a playthrough on Unfair. There's quite a difference between Challenging and Hard already.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm on a first, "role-playing" playthrough now, but for a second playthrough I want to go into metagaming builds as a game within the game. Would the right difficulty be Unfair for that then?

If your first playthrough is on Challenging, you should probably try at least the beginning of the game (the introduction and part of Act 1) on Hard before you attempt a playthrough on Unfair. There's quite a difference between Challenging and Hard already.

Yeah, Unfair before lvl five you're just playing a different game. If you want the achievement I recommend a pet class to save yourself a lot of reloads no matter how good you are. I usually kick it up to Unfair for the big fights at lvl five and fulltime at lvl 11.

 

[Pink Eye]

I'm on a first, "role-playing" playthrough now, but for a second playthrough I want to go into metagaming builds as a game within the game. Would the right difficulty be Unfair for that then?

If your first playthrough is on Challenging, you should probably try at least the beginning of the game (the introduction and part of Act 1) on Hard before you attempt a playthrough on Unfair. There's quite a difference between Challenging and Hard already.

Yeah, Unfair before lvl five you're just playing a different game. If you want the achievement I recommend a pet class to save yourself a lot of reloads no matter how good you are. I usually kick it up to Unfair for the big fights at lvl five and fulltime at lvl 11.

You really should play the prologue area on unfair. If only, to understand the pain and suffering that I have went through

 

[Ninjerk]

Heavy Armor should probably be Weapon Spec

In truth, whacking people with a spare suit of armour sounds rather handy.

About the only thing heavy armor is good for.

What counts as difficult terrain, btw? I picked up that personal mobility spell that mentions it (not Expeditious Retreat, but the icon looks the same) expecting to be able to fly through grease slicks sneak-attacking everything to no avail and now I'm not sure what it's actually useful for.

 

[Desiderius]

Heavy Armor should probably be Weapon Spec

In truth, whacking people with a spare suit of armour sounds rather handy.

About the only thing heavy armor is good for.

What counts as difficult terrain, btw? I picked up that personal mobility spell that mentions it (not Expeditious Retreat, but the icon looks the same) expecting to be able to fly through grease slicks sneak-attacking everything to no avail and now I'm not sure what it's actually useful for.

Difficult Terrain. Like Stone Call and Obsidian Flow. It will say it in the spell if it has it. And yes Feather Step works with it.

 

[Erebus]

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think are the best weapon types to specialize in (based on the weapons that can be found in the main campaign) ?

Heavy Mace seems pretty good. Halfway through Act 2, you get the Mallet of Woe, a +3 weapon that grants permanent Freedom of Movement, which is really nice. And in Act 5, you'll find two +5 Heavy Maces with interesting effects (especially Sovereign, as it can greatly boost your attack rolls, AC and saving throws during fights versus multiple opponents).

There seems to a be a lot of good dueling sword, but I never got to use them.

 

[new fucking guy]

custom party is for 6 gnomes runs
I hope we get ratfolk in wotr so I can do 6 rats though

 

[Pink Eye]

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think are the best weapon types to specialize in (based on the weapons that can be found in the main campaign) ?

Heavy Mace seems pretty good. Halfway through Act 2, you get the Mallet of Woe, a +3 weapon that grants permanent Freedom of Movement, which is really nice. And in Act 5, you'll find two +5 Heavy Maces with interesting effects (especially Sovereign, as it can greatly boost your attack rolls, AC and saving throws during fights versus multiple opponents).

There seems to a be a lot of good dueling sword, but I never got to use them.

>Out of curiosity, what do you guys think are the best weapon types to specialize in (based on the weapons that can be found in the main campaign)
Dueling Swords, and Bastards Swords. Dueling Sword have some very nice magic based enchantments, like bloodhound for example. For Bastard Sword there is a sword that gives you a +6 to CHA. Which is really nice for CHA based builds, or if you're looking to be persuasive. I think it drops around the Pitax Chapter? Long Swords are also pretty good, an artisan can give you one that gives dodge bonuses to AC.

 

[Erebus]

There are some nice Bastard Swords, but the ones I remember seem to be only available at a fairly late stage in the game (Ravena's Kiss and Unstoppable Khanda can be acquired in Act 5).