Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Heroic Liberator]

By the way, if my monk video spam is annoying. Let me know and I'll stop it.

Keep going, buddy.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I only did it for the steam achievement. It isn't worth it. I spent over an hour running around in circles.

I don't know, I killed him twice by the sunlight already. It's kind of fascinating to kill Kargadd without any shots or strikes. But I am using "Expeditious Retreat" on all the melee and fight by pressing 'V', so that's that.

 

[Haplo]

How viable is trip lategame if you optimize for it?

Since you can stack Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall, with a Dexterity-focused ranged Kineticist you almost never fail your trip attempts, even against the biggest creatures. It's funny because you can trip some creatures that don't even have a "tripped" animation. There is a big hidden pleasure to explore in tripping giant plants.

I have never tried, but I'm sure it's even easier with a Strength-focused melee Kineticist, since you can benefit from spells like Enlarge Person and Legendary Proportions.

Not sure if Agile + Fury's Fall works. I think it used to at some point.
However high Str + Size modifiers + high Dex probably beat it (think Mutagen bonuses for example).

Kineticist is pretty bad CMB-wise. He does have the advantage of aoe Combat Maneuvers (or multiple attempts per round with Blade).

Yosharian: you can trip pretty much anything, provided that you optimize.
Key optimizations include: Shatter Defenses, Crippling Strike, use of Mastery fauchard. High BAB also helps, of course.
You should manage nearly 60-ish CMB (and heavily debuff enemy CMD).

 

[NJClaw]

How viable is trip lategame if you optimize for it?

Since you can stack Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall, with a Dexterity-focused ranged Kineticist you almost never fail your trip attempts, even against the biggest creatures. It's funny because you can trip some creatures that don't even have a "tripped" animation. There is a big hidden pleasure to explore in tripping giant plants.

I have never tried, but I'm sure it's even easier with a Strength-focused melee Kineticist, since you can benefit from spells like Enlarge Person and Legendary Proportions.

Not sure if Agile + Fury's Fall works. I think it used to at some point.
However high Str + Size modifiers + high Dex probably beat it (think Mutagen bonuses for example).

Kineticist is pretty bad CMB-wise. He does have the advantage of aoe Combat Maneuvers (or multiple attempts per round with Blade).

Yosharian: you can trip pretty much anything, provided that you optimize.
Key optimizations include: Shatter Defenses, Crippling Strike, use of Mastery fauchard. High BAB also helps, of course.
You should manage nearly 60-ish CMB (and heavily debuff enemy CMD).

Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall do stack. These are two instances of a trip attempt made against the same enemy, the only difference is that the second character has Agile Maneuvers:

Spoiler

The two characters have Dexterity 20 and Constitution 18.

Thanks to how CMD and CMB work, even a medium BAB class without size increments can excel at tripping opponents. Bonuses for Large and Huge sizes are not that impressive. Once you have Shatter Defenses and a high Dexterity, you can trip almost anything.

 

[Haplo]

How viable is trip lategame if you optimize for it?

Since you can stack Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall, with a Dexterity-focused ranged Kineticist you almost never fail your trip attempts, even against the biggest creatures. It's funny because you can trip some creatures that don't even have a "tripped" animation. There is a big hidden pleasure to explore in tripping giant plants.

I have never tried, but I'm sure it's even easier with a Strength-focused melee Kineticist, since you can benefit from spells like Enlarge Person and Legendary Proportions.

Not sure if Agile + Fury's Fall works. I think it used to at some point.
However high Str + Size modifiers + high Dex probably beat it (think Mutagen bonuses for example).

Kineticist is pretty bad CMB-wise. He does have the advantage of aoe Combat Maneuvers (or multiple attempts per round with Blade).

Yosharian: you can trip pretty much anything, provided that you optimize.
Key optimizations include: Shatter Defenses, Crippling Strike, use of Mastery fauchard. High BAB also helps, of course.
You should manage nearly 60-ish CMB (and heavily debuff enemy CMD).

Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall do stack. These are two instances of a trip attempt made against the same enemy, the only difference is that the second character has Agile Maneuvers:

Spoiler

The two characters have Dexterity 20 and Constitution 18.

Thanks to how CMD and CMB work, even a medium BAB class without size increments can excel at tripping opponents. Bonuses for Large and Huge sizes are not that impressive. Once you have Shatter Defenses and a high Dexterity, you can trip almost anything.

Well, I remember some late game enemies, for example Wild Hunt Monarchs, having north of 60 CMD - before debuffing. So not that easy to trip. But much easier once you cut them to size with Shatter Defences and a few Crippling Strikes / other debuffs.

Dex is not that good IMO, as you definately should be using the Mastery fauchard if you're a CM specialist - and that can't be finessed.

 

[NJClaw]

Well, I remember some late game enemies, for example Wild Hunt Monarchs, having north of 60 CMD - before debuffing. So not that easy to trip. But much easier once you cut them to size with Shatter Defences and a few Crippling Strikes / other debuffs.

Dex is not that good IMO, as you definately should be using the Mastery fauchard if you're a CM specialist - and that can't be finessed.

A kineticist can benefit from Mastery CMB bonus AND its damage on a successful trip attempt:

Spoiler

Same character as before (without Agile Maneuvers), but this time with Mastery equipped.

 

[Haplo]

That's cool, I have wondered if that would work.

 

[NJClaw]

The idea of a bunch of enemies tripped by a Deadly Earth and then all cut from the blade without a single movement is almost too anime.

 

[Yosharian]

Hmm. So Alchemist?

Do you even need bites if you're just activating Trip to get Mastery's bonus attack? Slightly confused as to whether I should be optimizing for repeatedly pressing the trip button, or optimizing for auto-trips on bite

Isn't a high BAB more effective than a medium BAB class with STR boosts? +8 STR is only +4 CMB right? And you lose that much from going medium BAB..

 

[Haplo]

Hmm. So Alchemist?

Do you even need bites if you're just activating Trip to get Mastery's bonus attack? Slightly confused as to whether I should be optimizing for repeatedly pressing the trip button, or optimizing for auto-trips on bite

Isn't a high BAB more effective than a medium BAB class with STR boosts? +8 STR is only +4 CMB right? And you lose that much from going medium BAB..

You seem to have it backwards. Mastery provides the bonus hit AFTER you land a Maneuver. So either you attack with main hand (optionally offhnad), Bite & Trip (potentially 3 or maybe even 5 times per round if you stack Bites and manually switch targets mid-round) and Mastery delivers its bonus hits (in addition to Trip AoOs if you have Greater Trip) or you use the Trip button to launch a single Trip Maneuver Standard Action and can get a single AoO and a single Mastery bonus hit.

A level 16 Alchemist also gets +6 Dex in addition to 8 Str. So that's +7 (+5 at level 12 Greater Mutagen). Can Transform for missing 5 BAB. And self-cast Legendary Proportions for 2 Size bonus. And can Crippling Strike to rapidly lower enemy CMD. But sure, full BAB classes are good also.
Particularly if they can buff their BAB further, like Barbarian with his Rage. I'm guessing Fighter Weapon Training doesn't affect Combat Maneuvers... or does it?

 

[Desiderius]

I would guess that it would, but unfortunately at this point it's just that, guesswork. True Strike does work though:

Important point about CMs is this:

They don't care about AC. Use that as the basis for your build. Also, Ghosts are immune to Trip. Main benefit of Bite/Cloak is that it's free (no Feats). If you're making a Trip build (using the Feats) then you don't need Bite/Cloak. You don't get even Greater Mutation until Alch 12 and Grand is 16, so can't really build around that if you're also planning to splash something. By the time those come online you should have other ways to connect.

 

[Angalith]

Greetings pathfinder companions!. I am new in this forum and I would like to ask you something to see if you can help me.

A few days ago I am playing the game and I have reached the part of the "Season of Blossom" where I have to kill a giant flower but it is impossible. What happens to me is:

- My group splits in two at a certain point in the mission
- I kill her with the first group. Specifically I burn the giant plant.
- Eliminate some enemies with the second group.
- My group meets again.

And here comes the problem, with the second group it is impossible to kill, it never falls, neither with fire nor anything. I have seen a YouTube video where a dialogue sequence between my party should be activated but nothing is activated. Is it a bug ?. Can you use any cheat to overcome it?

I am with version 2.0.8 of the game.

Thanks new friends!

 

[amurath]

Hmm. So Alchemist?

Do you even need bites if you're just activating Trip to get Mastery's bonus attack? Slightly confused as to whether I should be optimizing for repeatedly pressing the trip button, or optimizing for auto-trips on bite

Isn't a high BAB more effective than a medium BAB class with STR boosts? +8 STR is only +4 CMB right? And you lose that much from going medium BAB..

You seem to have it backwards. Mastery provides the bonus hit AFTER you land a Maneuver. So either you attack with main hand (optionally offhnad), Bite & Trip (potentially 3 or maybe even 5 times per round if you stack Bites and manually switch targets mid-round) and Mastery delivers its bonus hits (in addition to Trip AoOs if you have Greater Trip) or you use the Trip button to launch a single Trip Maneuver Standard Action and can get a single AoO and a single Mastery bonus hit.

A level 16 Alchemist also gets +6 Dex in addition to 8 Str. So that's +7 (+5 at level 12 Greater Mutagen). Can Transform for missing 5 BAB. And self-cast Legendary Proportions for 2 Size bonus. And can Crippling Strike to rapidly lower enemy CMD. But sure, full BAB classes are good also.
Particularly if they can buff their BAB further, like Barbarian with his Rage. I'm guessing Fighter Weapon Training doesn't affect Combat Maneuvers... or does it?

Speaking of manual retargeting, that's probably the most annoying part of playing a bite/trip vivi. Do you guys know of a way to automate that or maybe at least have an automatic pause after a successful trip? It's not a big deal, but I hate decreasing my own DPS due to laziness.

 

[Pink Eye]

Yep. Still works.

 

[Pink Eye]

Nice.

 

[Haplo]

I would guess that it would, but unfortunately at this point it's just that, guesswork. True Strike does work though:

View attachment 13028

Important point about CMs is this:

They don't care about AC. Use that as the basis for your build. Also, Ghosts are immune to Trip. Main benefit of Bite/Cloak is that it's free (no Feats). If you're making a Trip build (using the Feats) then you don't need Bite/Cloak. You don't get even Greater Mutation until Alch 12 and Grand is 16, so can't really build around that if you're also planning to splash something. By the time those come online you should have other ways to connect.

Main benefit of Trip cloak is that it allows to combine full attacking and Combat Maneuvers. But you need to connect your Bites (at -5AB) first to attempt Trips. So accuracy is very important.

 

[Desiderius]

As we've seen with CleaveBooter though, full attacking isn't all that big of a deal, and doesn't happen nearly as often as theorycrafting would have it. Of course the closer one gets to soloing the more you're getting full attacks (if you're not dying, which is an issue for straight Vivi even with 100AC). Staying at Reach range is valuable in itself, and you give that up with bites.

Greater Trip gets two AoOs, plus the extra Mastery gives you, all at full BAB. That should be more than enough. And you get a Cloak slot. With EA/CotW you also get Felling Strike.

Aspect of Wolf (which you want anyway for the CMB bonus) gives you another free Trip as Swift action, which starts the chain again.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Do you guys know of a way to automate that or maybe at least have an automatic pause after a successful trip?

True RTwP connoisseurs play through 'V' button.

 

[Desiderius]

Do you guys know of a way to automate that or maybe at least have an automatic pause after a successful trip?

True RTwP connoisseurs play through 'V' button.

I tried TB mod for one fight, and that was enough.

RtwP with 'V" is absolutely perfect, especially with the finer positioning required for Proper Flanking mod.

 

[Seari]

Does the Trip feat use the weapon's reach? I never tried it myself. I read on steam forums some time ago that it doesn't.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Every day I ask what game to play.

Every day I end up playing 4 hours of the roguelike dungeon.

 

[Desiderius]

Every day I ask what game to play.

Every day I end up playing 4 hours of the roguelike dungeon.

It's better than I thought it was going to be. Helps to have all these new classes to test.

 

[Desiderius]

Does the Trip feat use the weapon's reach? I never tried it myself. I read on steam forums some time ago that it doesn't.

See pics in Builds thread.

 

[Yosharian]

Hmm. So Alchemist?

Do you even need bites if you're just activating Trip to get Mastery's bonus attack? Slightly confused as to whether I should be optimizing for repeatedly pressing the trip button, or optimizing for auto-trips on bite

Isn't a high BAB more effective than a medium BAB class with STR boosts? +8 STR is only +4 CMB right? And you lose that much from going medium BAB..

You seem to have it backwards. Mastery provides the bonus hit AFTER you land a Maneuver. So either you attack with main hand (optionally offhnad), Bite & Trip (potentially 3 or maybe even 5 times per round if you stack Bites and manually switch targets mid-round) and Mastery delivers its bonus hits (in addition to Trip AoOs if you have Greater Trip) or you use the Trip button to launch a single Trip Maneuver Standard Action and can get a single AoO and a single Mastery bonus hit.

A level 16 Alchemist also gets +6 Dex in addition to 8 Str. So that's +7 (+5 at level 12 Greater Mutagen). Can Transform for missing 5 BAB. And self-cast Legendary Proportions for 2 Size bonus. And can Crippling Strike to rapidly lower enemy CMD. But sure, full BAB classes are good also.
Particularly if they can buff their BAB further, like Barbarian with his Rage. I'm guessing Fighter Weapon Training doesn't affect Combat Maneuvers... or does it?

Weapon training is supposed to affect CMB but I wonder if they coded it

Edit: they didn't bother, just another fuck you to Fighters, it's a wonder anyone bothers to use that class in this game. What a fucking joke. If they'd coded it properly, Fighters would actually be the best at something. Fucking sad.

 

[Yosharian]

Ah well a bit of googling and I discovered that Pummeling Bully works with weapons! So you get a full attack plus a trip plus two attacks of opportunity. I'm not sure why you get two attacks of opportunity. The one where he stands up, OK. Where the other one is coming from, no idea. Seems like it happens when the trip occurs.

Edit: ahh I should read feat text more closely. Greater Trip is what causes the extra AOO when you trip.