Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[NJClaw]

The combination of Fascinate and Dirge of Doom (which is possible with Lingering Performance) is... fascinating!

Yeah, the fact Lingering Performance allows you to stack multiple songs is a bit too strong. I would still pick that feat even if it was implemented as it is in PnP.

 

[LannTheStupid]

What do Westerners mean when they say "the game is too long"?

 

[NJClaw]

What do Westerners mean when they say "the game is too long"?

That after a while you no longer enjoy the game and keep playing just to see the ending. Kingmaker is too long for its own good: final areas feel somewhat rushed and can't compete with the quality of the first 5-6 chapters (someone would even say first 2-3, but I love everything the game has to offer up until the house, with some of its parts included).

 

[NJClaw]

If Owlcat hadn't wasted time working on the last chapter, maybe they would have worked a bit more on the Pitax chapter to deliver a better and more satisfying game.

 

[Desiderius]

It's a really big ruleset. Once you find the appropriate part for each kind of mob then it's much less of a slog combatwise, but there's just less interesting stuff there than one finds in earlier chapters. Likewise mobs prebuffing, more minibosses and the like would have been more enjoyable.

 

[Efe]

thanks to corona people started playing their backlogs. i watched at least a dozen low or no viewer guys on twitch playing kingmaker and can safely say most of them have no clue.
most of them dont know:
stacking rules.
using ctrl to unsnap targeting.
using inspect and what fort/will/reflex is and choosing correct spells.
they dont read or comprehend most of spells either.
that you dont have to rest as soon as game pops "you are fatigued -2 penalty pls go camp" message.
just poped a new one and heard him say "i gotto do curse research to stop the curse"..
"oh yea buffs!" proceeds to casts heroism + good hope.

.. no wonder people complain about difficulty.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Oh thank god, I thought I was the only one who only ever allowed my companions to rest after each'd given their Exhaustion Dialogue. Can't make good time getting anywhere without driving your companions like an Industrial-Era Factory Overseer.

How long did they last before going back to Apex Legends or whatever?

 

[NJClaw]

that you dont have to rest as soon as game pops "you are fatigued -2 penalty pls go camp" message.

Fuck camping and resting, join the Paladin gang.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh thank god, I thought I was the only one who only ever allowed my companions to rest after each'd given their Exhaustion Dialogue. Can't make good time getting anywhere without driving your companions like an Industrial-Era Factory Overseer.

I've gotten to the point midgame where it seems like I can go from one side of the map to the other without resting. Galt Ragout/Creese Crossata + Traveling light + 14 CON min = go all day.

 

[Desiderius]

thanks to corona people started playing their backlogs. i watched at least a dozen low or no viewer guys on twitch playing kingmaker and can safely say most of them have no clue.
most of them dont know:
stacking rules.
using ctrl to unsnap targeting.
using inspect and what fort/will/reflex is and choosing correct spells.
they dont read or comprehend most of spells either.
that you dont have to rest as soon as game pops "you are fatigued -2 penalty pls go camp" message.
just poped a new one and heard him say "i gotto do curse research to stop the curse"..
"oh yea buffs!" proceeds to casts heroism + good hope.

.. no wonder people complain about difficulty.

Many of those are due to bad default design. No reason to have Inspect button at all - no downside to having it always on.
Likewise More Info and Autopauses should be opt out, not opt in.

Need to walk people through targeting weak saves/how stacking works/dealing with conditions a couple times in first chapter as well. Make a gate quest depend on understanding it.

Do better on WotR Owlcat.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Need to walk people through targeting weak saves

For what purpose?

 

[Silly Germans]

Buffing could be made simpler if they simply showed a preview of your
stats. There are many things which are unclear whether they stack
or not. The stacking rules are not intuitive. Why do some stack indefinitely
while others only apply the highest one ?
I find that to be one of the most convoluted features of third edition games.
Its not a big problem once you've learned that crap, but for someone knew
to DnD it isn't obvious.

 

[Pink Eye]

Spoiler

I fooking love Valerie...

 

[Pink Eye]

Spoiler

NOOO JAETHAL! MY WIFE! AHHH!

 

[Desiderius]

Need to walk people through targeting weak saves

For what purpose?

The utterly cruel and ruthless rape and pillage of Mother Russia, of course. What else is there?

 

[Pink Eye]

IT WAS JUST A PRANK BRO!

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

I think I know who it was that put in a good word for my waifu!

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

What a woman! Jaethal is the COOLEST!

Spoiler

 

[NJClaw]

Buffing could be made simpler if they simply showed a preview of your
stats. There are many things which are unclear whether they stack
or not. The stacking rules are not intuitive. Why do some stack indefinitely
while others only apply the highest one ?
I find that to be one of the most convoluted features of third edition games.
Its not a big problem once you've learned that crap, but for someone knew
to DnD it isn't obvious.

Stacking rules are simple once you learn about them: each bonus has a type (a single keyword like "armor", "shield", "enhancement", "sacred" and so on) and bonuses of the same type do not stack (you just use the highest value). The only exceptions (obviously it wouldn't be 3.x without exceptions) are "dodge", "circumstance" and "untyped" bonuses, which always stack. That's it.

The problem with Kingmaker is that sometimes they don't explain flawlessly what type of bonus you get with certain spells, items and abilities.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Yeah hopefully the can explain these concepts in WotR better. Honestly, the tutorial in Kingmaker is barely tutorial at all and leaves a lot of things out, especially on combat, buff, debuffs side of things. Problem is a lot of this thing doesn't happen until you several hours in the game. BUff type stacking only start becomes prominent in PfK in mid of Troll Troubles I guess, when you are starting to get swamped by magic items and have access to 3rd level spells.

Maybe they should have designated pop-up whenever something happens for the first time. Getting Blinded/Diseased? Pop a tutorial in about what are they and what is the basic way to deal with them. First time stacking the same type of buffs (say, Blessings and Aid/Heroism), pop a tutorial in. Stacking the same equipment with the same bonus type? Pop something in. Veterans can disable these if they want but at least make the concept get around to new players. Advanced stuffs such as feats and charactr building can maybe be found by player themselves but at least give the basics to the players.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

TL;DR try Fascinate/Glitterdust.

Yeah, you're correct that some enchantment spells would've made a difference, but unless I got lucky with the rolls it likely wouldn't have been enough. I definitely know the power of a Bard with Spell Focus: Enchantment (Cacophonous Call makes so many spells completely irrelevant) and Fascinate, I used Linzi through my whole Unfair vanilla run. Thing is I wanted to mix things up too, so no Linzi this time. Might supplement with some Fear necromancy spells from Jaethal.

The real problem was that it was an ambush and my spells were depleted, the wolves started the fight all over my unbuffed characters. The real mistake was prancing around the Kamelands with no rest, but I simply did not know that higher level ambushes could happen there as in my 400 hours played I'd never visited it early. When I saw that little dragon mini on the map and the message that I failed to evade them I just went: oh... oh no...

I could obviously reset my run and get to the same point with relative ease, but I seriously don't have it in me to waste hours clearing those initial areas in the Shrike Hills again. The Old Sycamore in particular I can't stand looking at. So yeah, I'll just tally deaths (though hopefully it doesn't happen again) and keep going. If I find I'd be dying a lot I might quit it.

Overall playing without the temptation of savescumming every roll, having to quicksave a billion times and just rolling with whatever happens in combat (somebody died, deal with it, get that 6k scroll) has been a lot more enjoyable than the base game. Specially the base game on Unfair; I don't know why I brought that upon myself, but I won't repeat it on Wrath of the Righteous, the early levels are absolute AIDS and then it become a cakewalk just like every other difficulty mode.

I wish more games had a hardcore mode like Kingdom Come: Deliverance, where it's not Ironman, but it doesn't let you save freely.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Alternatively, I might drop this run and mess around with Beneath the Stolen Lands a bit. But the fact that it takes several runs to complete (supposedly?) is turning me off from it. Do I have to create a new party for each new run or do my characters carry over?

Every new run starts with level 1 characters. Going down one dungeon floor gives an obscene amount of EXP, so you have to level up your characters constantly. During my playthroughs I think I spend more time leveling up than actually playing the game.

That doesn't sound terribly fun to go through multiple times. If it was more of a continuous experience where you can meet all the bosses in a single run, I'd be a lot more interested. Guess I'll visit it on my main playthrough.

Totally unrelated: the feats in Call of the Wild allow you to build Regongar in a way that kind of makes him a beast. A lot of options to let his Shocking Grasp scale past 5d6 and specialize into it with metamagic. Probably still a lot worse than that broken ass POS Sword Saint, but very fun nevertheless.

 

[Desiderius]

Alternatively, I might drop this run and mess around with Beneath the Stolen Lands a bit. But the fact that it takes several runs to complete (supposedly?) is turning me off from it. Do I have to create a new party for each new run or do my characters carry over?

Every new run starts with level 1 characters. Going down one dungeon floor gives an obscene amount of EXP, so you have to level up your characters constantly. During my playthroughs I think I spend more time leveling up than actually playing the game.

That doesn't sound terribly fun to go through multiple times. If it was more of a continuous experience where you can meet all the bosses in a single run, I'd be a lot more interested. Guess I'll visit it on my main playthrough.

Totally unrelated: the feats in Call of the Wild allow you to build Regongar in a way that kind of makes him a beast. A lot of options to let his Shocking Grasp scale past 5d6 and specialize into it with metamagic. Probably still a lot worse than that broken ass POS Sword Saint, but very fun nevertheless.

It's still just damage, and ultimately not much of that as Hap has shown. You're better off with Frigid Touch no save Stagger and just having your way.

Straight Scion is fine on it's own in unmodded. STR-based melee + Casting in Heavy + Mirror Image and Shield + Best Cloak in game from Companion quest = he didn't need the help.

 

[Desiderius]

Need to walk people through targeting weak saves

For what purpose?

To turn the 1/3 of retards who can read vs the 2/3 who can't, taking heat off the devs to make it faceroll for them all.

 

[DalekFlay]

.. no wonder people complain about difficulty.

I made a pretty melee DPS focused party and 90% of the game they just whacked through everything while I controlled Octavia's ranged choices and positioned my backstabber. Then you'd randomly come across an enemy that would force you to pay attention, and that's mostly rooted in understanding what certain effects are doing to you and how to counteract it. Most of the internet complaints are based around that, if you google. It's always the same trouble spots and they're always rooted in things like not understanding death ward or freedom of movement. So I think that's one of the main issues, and I do think the game could tutorialize that stuff way better for noobs to this system.