Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Too many galaxy brain theroycrafters in the thread, no point saying anything at this point. Yes, two handed strength based builds are the only thing worth building in this game. 4 two handed sword saint herpa derpers 1 alchemist and 1 Bard with fascinate = literally the only thing even worth contemplating. If you guys are right, what a fantastic system Pathfinder is! :D

I'll show myself out so you guys can continue stroking your cocks with those screenshots of BIG DUMMUGE NUMBARS

Lol.

Yes, if you're ambushed by a bunch of weak-Willed mobs and you've already blown all your spells you've eliminated most of the alternatives to Fascinate, a song I rarely use after level 8.

You claimed that Reg needed a mod to be viable, which is incorrect. He does just fine thanks to Shield, Mirror Image, being able to cast in Heavy Armor, and the free AC one gets with Enlarge effects that he wants being STR-based and which also end up dwarfing the damage from Shocking Grasp unless you're rest spamming midgame, and just in general once you get Legendary Proportions. It's so strong that I usually make him a backup Bard or something since him owning everything gets boring. Don't even need to go Two-handed, my first build was just Longsword with Crane Wing the hard way spamming Touch of Fatigue and he was fine.

You claimed the DEX-based SS is obviously superior to the alternatives, which is also incorrect, for the reasons outlined above.

git gud.

 

[Desiderius]

Dex based Sword Saint is just better by a wide margin.

Lol. No.

I see you're new here.

Behold the silliness of STR-based nonsense. This is unmodded.

You're giving up one of your main class features (free spell every round + full attacks?) and a ton of AC in order to do alpha strikes. The tradeoff is not as clear as you're making it out to be here. You can use a Rapier on Sword Saint and do some pretty cool things with a Duelist prestige class. Not everything has to be a hurr durr strength based alpha striker.

Parry is underrated.

On the other hand the DEX AC advantage is overrated. STR-based is not just Alpha Strikes. We've been over this.

 

[Desiderius]

i never used his mod.
not planning on doing it either. why would i sign up to his patreon?

Question wasn't directed at you personally, just at those who use his mod. My guess is that this arrangement doesn't last, but I hope that it does and he cashes in to encourage more good modders.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Not just parry, but the intelligence bonus to dodge AC, plus Elaborate Defense, plus all the DEX means you can achieve some of the highest touch AC in the game, on top of high level Mirror Image (can even quicken it for emergencies). The extra 10 damage per hit + improved initiative + the utility from crippling critical (and you'll be criting often as a Sword Saint) means it at least merits consideration over a two handed STR build IMO.

All that said, I'm likely biased because I hate cookie cutter builds, which is what putting a Magus on a two handed STR build feels like to me. You could legitimately do the same with a fighter, but the magus is likely still gonna be overall better just because of how stupidly overpowered shield and mirror image are for such low-level spells (among a few others). One of the merits of 5E, IMO, has been precisely toning down these staples so as to make spell casters have less tools that completely outshine martial classes.

I never ever said Regongar was not viable. Here's what I said:

"Totally unrelated: the feats in Call of the Wild allow you to build Regongar in a way that kind of makes him a beast. A lot of options to let his Shocking Grasp scale past 5d6 and specialize into it with metamagic. Probably still a lot worse than that broken ass POS Sword Saint, but very fun nevertheless."

Yeah, he's a competent character in that cookie cutter kind of way, but the devs clearly designed him around Shocking Grasp and the base game lacks a ton of options to really make the spell shine in his build. Call of the Wild let's you go that inteded route by letting you use metamagic without losing your iterative attacks and giving you +2 damage per damage dice on a grasp that can scale to all the up to ~15d6 ocasionally and 10d6 more often + x2 on a crit that should happen often with 15-20 range on a scimitar. It's actually quite effective (and fun!). That's all.

I'll concede that I'm probably wrong and going for a 2 handed STR build is probably more effective if you guys say so, as I certainly haven't been participating in the 600+ page discussion to have the authority to come to this conclusion. That said, if you guys are right, it's a pretty damning indictment of the system as a whole.

 

[Desiderius]

Not just parry, but the intelligence bonus to dodge AC, plus Elaborate Defense, plus all the DEX means you can achieve some of the highest touch AC in the game, on top of high level Mirror Image (can even quicken it for emergencies). The extra 10 damage per hit + improved initiative + the utility from crippling critical (and you'll be criting often as a Sword Saint) means it at least merits consideration over a two handed STR build IMO.

All that said, I'm likely biased because I hate cookie cutter builds, which is what putting a Magus on a two handed STR build feels like to me. You could legitimately do the same with a fighter, but the magus is likely still gonna be overall better just because of how stupidly overpowered shield and mirror image are for such low-level spells (among a few others). One of the merits of 5E, IMO, has been precisely toning down these staples so as to make spell casters have less tools that completely outshine martial classes.

I never ever said Regongar was not viable. Here's what I said:

"Totally unrelated: the feats in Call of the Wild allow you to build Regongar in a way that kind of makes him a beast. A lot of options to let his Shocking Grasp scale past 5d6 and specialize into it with metamagic. Probably still a lot worse than that broken ass POS Sword Saint, but very fun nevertheless."

Yeah, he's a competent character in that cookie cutter kind of way, but the devs clearly designed him around Shocking Grasp and the base game lacks a ton of options to really make the spell shine in his build. Call of the Wild let's you go that inteded route by letting you use metamagic without losing your iterative attacks and giving you +2 damage per damage dice on a grasp that can scale to all the up to ~15d6 ocasionally and 10d6 more often + x2 on a crit that should happen often with 15-20 range on a scimitar. It's actually quite effective (and fun!). That's all.

I'll concede that I'm probably wrong and going for a 2 handed STR build is probably more effective if you guys say so, as I certainly haven't been participating in the 600+ page discussion to have the authority to come to this conclusion. That said, if you guys are right, it's a pretty damning indictment of the system as a whole.

As I said, we've already been over all this, with me arguing your side. It's a big ruleset. There is plenty there to make a STR-based Saint just as good if not better than a DEX-based one, which is in contradiction to your original claim.

Here's a STR-based one-hander I built for testing:

The point of that one was to see how much AC/AB I could get so wasn't doing much damage (plus Gedovius can't be flanked), but you can see there is a lot there. You can get in the forties for Touch AC STR-based if you want, but it's just easier to kill stuff fast and get your saves up for the consequences of the Touch attacks that do hit you and/or use Death Ward etc...

That said, I prefer playing DEX-based due to the enhanced strategic options, but I'm in the minority.

(1) 10 damage is nice but even that gets dwarfed.

(2) The free initiative SS gives you is what makes STR-based viable in the first place

(3) Crippling Critical is win more. If you're critting with Outflank shit is already dead.

(4) Reg is already a beast out of the box due to the way Enlarge effects and STR-based interact. Blowing feats to improve a first-level spell seems narrow-minded. He's already got other great spells at higher levels and needs feats for Shatter Defenses and the like.

 

[Pink Eye]

Fear me! I have defeated my arch nemesis! The salad of green! THE GREEN LETTUCE! MWAHAHA! I am invincible!

 

[Pink Eye]

After this is Lantern King.. Pray for me bros.....

 

[Pink Eye]

GROETUS!

 

[Pink Eye]

The accursed mad jester! Reee!

 

[amurath]

GROETUS!

I'm a little surprised you're only level 19 at the HATEOT when you're running with a 3-man party. Do you have share XP on? I'm also not sure that DD is all that helpful for a pure melee build once you get Gyronna's amulet. Why not go Scaled Fist 11, Paladin 2, THF 7 instead for better damage with the Ruin quarterstaff, which you can get pretty early?

 

[Pink Eye]

>Do you have share XP on?
Yes! I use a 6 man party for certain dungeons. My monks still get their butts kicked on Hard! Not as brutal as Unfair, but still. I sometimes need help clearing dungeons out.

>also not sure that DD is all that helpful for a pure melee build once you get Gyronna's amulet.
When I started this build, I had one goal in mind. To reach 50 STR! So far I've been having a blast with the build. It's basically a more optimized version of one of my monk builds.

>Why not go Scaled Fist 11, Paladin 2, THF 7 instead for better damage with the Ruin quarterstaff, which you can get pretty early?
Because I enjoy punching stuff with my fists! DD gives me STR bonuses which increases unarmed damage. It also facilitates access to mirror image and sense vitals. The 3 vivi dips were also for the STR bonuses, shield, and sneak attack die. The STR bonuses in conjunction with Dragon style + Power attack, should yield to decently high unarmed damage. Fists can do around 70-80 damage. I would like to see if it's possible to get it to 90 or even 100 damage with 50 STR. Probably not, but it's worth trying.

 

[amurath]

>Do you have share XP on?
Yes! I use a 6 man party for certain dungeons. My monks still get their butts kicked on Hard! Not as brutal as Unfair, but still. I sometimes need help clearing dungeons out.

>also not sure that DD is all that helpful for a pure melee build once you get Gyronna's amulet.
When I started this build, I had one goal in mind. To reach 50 STR! So far I've been having a blast with the build. It's basically a more optimized version of one of my monk builds.

>Why not go Scaled Fist 11, Paladin 2, THF 7 instead for better damage with the Ruin quarterstaff, which you can get pretty early?
Because I enjoy punching stuff with my fists! DD gives me STR bonuses which increases unarmed damage. It also facilitates access to mirror image and sense vitals. The 3 vivi dips were also for the STR bonuses, shield, and sneak attack die. The STR bonuses in conjunction with Dragon style + Power attack, should yield to decently high unarmed damage. Fists can do around 70-80 damage. I would like to see if it's possible to get it to 90 or even 100 damage with 50 STR. Probably not, but it's worth trying.

Fair enough. If you have Jubilost in your party, I recommend getting extended Transformation from him for the final fight. Also, as I'm sure you know, the most annoying part of the Lantern King fight is his AOE dispel in phase I. You'll need to either avoid it by running away or take him out in one round, before he can cast it. Tripping him may help.

 

[Cryomancer]

I was thinking that on UNFAIR, is impossible to pass chapter one as a sorcerer(ss) but i found this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf7Muoq2a-c&list=PLCSfiMZH9ptmLwVfW_hHcY_RgYG6bNokk&index=1

Basically the guy runs with smilidons as tanks that revive easily after combat or resting while takes specializations that will help him to kill enemies even when they pass their saves.

Anyone finished ALL the game on UNFAIR? As a caster?

 

[Pink Eye]

>Do you have share XP on?
Yes! I use a 6 man party for certain dungeons. My monks still get their butts kicked on Hard! Not as brutal as Unfair, but still. I sometimes need help clearing dungeons out.

>also not sure that DD is all that helpful for a pure melee build once you get Gyronna's amulet.
When I started this build, I had one goal in mind. To reach 50 STR! So far I've been having a blast with the build. It's basically a more optimized version of one of my monk builds.

>Why not go Scaled Fist 11, Paladin 2, THF 7 instead for better damage with the Ruin quarterstaff, which you can get pretty early?
Because I enjoy punching stuff with my fists! DD gives me STR bonuses which increases unarmed damage. It also facilitates access to mirror image and sense vitals. The 3 vivi dips were also for the STR bonuses, shield, and sneak attack die. The STR bonuses in conjunction with Dragon style + Power attack, should yield to decently high unarmed damage. Fists can do around 70-80 damage. I would like to see if it's possible to get it to 90 or even 100 damage with 50 STR. Probably not, but it's worth trying.

Fair enough. If you have Jubilost in your party, I recommend getting extended Transformation from him for the final fight. Also, as I'm sure you know, the most annoying part of the Lantern King fight is his AOE dispel in phase I. You'll need to either avoid it by running away or take him out in one round, before he can cast it. Tripping him may help.

Thanks for the tips. It's much appreciated.

 

[amurath]

I was thinking that on UNFAIR, is impossible to pass chapter one as a sorcerer(ss) but i found this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf7Muoq2a-c&list=PLCSfiMZH9ptmLwVfW_hHcY_RgYG6bNokk&index=1

Basically the guy runs with smilidons as tanks that revive easily after combat or resting while takes specializations that will help him to kill enemies even when they pass their saves.

Anyone finished ALL the game on UNFAIR? As a caster?

What classes/builds do you consider to be casters? Sword Saints do pretty well on Unfair, as do Vivisectionists. InEffect talked about doing Unfair solo with this melee sorcerer build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post41?as=1649904300. After finishing the game twice on Unfair solo (once with a bite/trip Vivi and once with a Sword Saint), there are only two really hard fights - the Spawn and the Lantern King. A Sorcerer can probably beat them both with Grandmaster's Rod and Hellfire Rays (+ sneak attack and all sorts of extra damage dice from equipment), not to mention Weird from a DC sorc.

 

[Cryomancer]

What classes/builds do you consider to be casters? Sword Saints do pretty well on Unfair, as do Vivisectionists. InEffect talked about doing Unfair solo with this melee sorcerer build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinde...1?as=1649904300. After finishing the game twice on Unfair solo (once with a bite/trip Vivi and once with a Sword Saint), there are only two really hard fights - the Spawn and the Lantern King. A Sorcerer can probably beat them both with Grandmaster's Rod and Hellfire Rays (+ sneak attack and all sorts of extra damage dice from equipment), not to mention Weird from a DC sorc.

Any build capable of mastering magic, IE - casting tier 9 spells is a "caster" IMO. Rangers that can only cast tier 4 spells aren't casters, nor Magus(which are hybrids)

 

[amurath]

What classes/builds do you consider to be casters? Sword Saints do pretty well on Unfair, as do Vivisectionists. InEffect talked about doing Unfair solo with this melee sorcerer build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinde...1?as=1649904300. After finishing the game twice on Unfair solo (once with a bite/trip Vivi and once with a Sword Saint), there are only two really hard fights - the Spawn and the Lantern King. A Sorcerer can probably beat them both with Grandmaster's Rod and Hellfire Rays (+ sneak attack and all sorts of extra damage dice from equipment), not to mention Weird from a DC sorc.

Any build capable of mastering magic, IE - casting tier 9 spells is a "caster" IMO. Rangers that can only cast tier 4 spells aren't casters, nor Magus(which are hybrids)

If you have to have 9th level spell casting (although I'm not sure it's all that great in Kingmaker due to the limited spell selection), I think a melee Scaled Fist 1/Paladin 2/Wizard 17 analog of the melee Sorc build could probably beat the game solo on Unfair. I personally prefer the memorization-based casters to spontaneous casters myself, anyway. With any build on Unfair, you probably want to start with a level of monk just to get Wis/Cha to AC. After that point, the buff-based melee builds are all quite similar.

 

[amurath]

Something like Monk 1/Wizard 9/EK 10 or Monk 1/Vivi 2/Wizard 7/AT 10 might work as well or better. In general, Monk 1/Vivi 1 is my go-to for surviving early Chapter 1 on Unfair.

 

[Cryomancer]

If you have to have 9th level spell casting (although I'm not sure it's all that great in Kingmaker due to the limited spell selection), I think a melee Scaled Fist 1/Paladin 2/Wizard 17 analog of the melee Sorc build could probably beat the game solo on Unfair.

Well, the sorcerer with animal companion since lv 1 seems very good. And i play with Call of the Wild mod which adds spells like Stop Time

And even on base game, end a wild hunt spam with a single wail of the banshee is so amazing. I think taht i will try on HARD before unfair.

Even without mods. 6 animal companions buffed to oblivion and shapeshifted into dragons can be quite devastating. I know that is a ultra long video, but i recommend to see the starting 50 seconds.

 

[Haplo]

Not just parry, but the intelligence bonus to dodge AC, plus Elaborate Defense, plus all the DEX means you can achieve some of the highest touch AC in the game, on top of high level Mirror Image (can even quicken it for emergencies). The extra 10 damage per hit + improved initiative + the utility from crippling critical (and you'll be criting often as a Sword Saint) means it at least merits consideration over a two handed STR build IMO.

Oh great, so you can boast about enemies needing to roll a 50 on a 20 sided dice to have a shot at hitting you?
Even more AC then what a SS already gets is pretty useless, if on a Str build the enemies already cannot hit you past level 5 or so.

No ability that Duelist has is reasonably comparable to the abilities you get from Sword Saint by staying pure.
10 precision damage? Please, its not even multiplied on crits. Lethal Focus adds Int-based damage that gets multiplied.
Bonus Initiative? Please, a 19 level SS always rolls "20" on Initiative (and double dips Dex and Int bonuses).

You're also missing like +2 enchantment points, several Arcana (just one brings +2 AB and +2d6 damage vs all; you're likely to do another 2d6 vs most enemies).
You have far less spells, halved durations, far less dispel resistance...

For a handful of worthless gimmicks. I absolutely detest these popular SS/Duelist builds, as they trade real power for some useless glass beads.
And hearing about rapier usage on a Sword Saint just makes my blood boil.

 

[Haplo]

If you have to have 9th level spell casting (although I'm not sure it's all that great in Kingmaker due to the limited spell selection), I think a melee Scaled Fist 1/Paladin 2/Wizard 17 analog of the melee Sorc build could probably beat the game solo on Unfair.

Well, the sorcerer with animal companion since lv 1 seems very good. And i play with Call of the Wild mod which adds spells like Stop Time

And even on base game, end a wild hunt spam with a single wail of the banshee is so amazing. I think taht i will try on HARD before unfair.

Even without mods. 6 animal companions buffed to oblivion and shapeshifted into dragons can be quite devastating. I know that is a ultra long video, but i recommend to see the starting 50 seconds.

Well sure, Sylvan Sorcerer with Smilodon was always considered easy mode (at least for early game - but that is when its most challenging). Also possibly the easiest character to solo with. Nothing new here.

 

[amurath]

If you have to have 9th level spell casting (although I'm not sure it's all that great in Kingmaker due to the limited spell selection), I think a melee Scaled Fist 1/Paladin 2/Wizard 17 analog of the melee Sorc build could probably beat the game solo on Unfair.

Well, the sorcerer with animal companion since lv 1 seems very good. And i play with Call of the Wild mod which adds spells like Stop Time

And even on base game, end a wild hunt spam with a single wail of the banshee is so amazing. I think taht i will try on HARD before unfair.

Even without mods. 6 animal companions buffed to oblivion and shapeshifted into dragons can be quite devastating. I know that is a ultra long video, but i recommend to see the starting 50 seconds.

If you're talking about the most powerful custom party setup for Unfair, I'm pretty sure nothing in the game can survive 6 (Empowered/Maximized) Composite Deadly Earths from 6 Kineticists. They also have a lot less buffing to do, so are probably somewhat more convenient to play. I agree that 6 spellcasting pet classes are probably the easiest for Ch.1 Unfair. I'd throw in an Animal+Community Erastil cleric with the 5 Sylvan Sorcerers to widen the buff selection and give you healing/resurrection just in case.

 

[Haplo]

LOL, nearly nothing can survive a single Composite Deadly Earth.
6 of them? Talk about overkill.

But its also a pretty rote playstyle in my opinion.

 

[Desiderius]

The game's designed to be played by groups as one discovers various group synergies. Solo whatever, you're missing the best part of the fun. 6 soloists at once is straight-up InEffect-level retarded.

 

[amurath]

The game's designed to be played by groups as one discovers various group synergies. Solo whatever, you're missing the best part of the fun. 6 soloists at once is straight-up InEffect-level retarded.

I agree that playing with 6 Sylvan Sorcerers or Kineticists kind of defeats the point of the game. On the other hand, I find playing solo to be both more challenging and more rewarding than party play, since it really forces you to use all the tools at your disposal.