Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

All that said, my MC right now is a dual wielding STR tiefling slayer with 7 iteratives and it's godlike when he is enlarged and gets that extended range.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

That's something that is heavily in favor of camp biggie, the increased threat range when you are doing so much damage is so significant. I think that in practice that ends up being more important than whether your weapon is Good or Great.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While we are on the topic of weapons, has anybody found any use for Vicious weapons? They look like a trap to me, am I missing something? EDIT: maybe they are intended for Fast Healing users?

I figured they were a drawback mechanic, akin to a curse, for good items. Most of them I've encountered were in proximity to barbarians, which would make sense. A class with DR is going to be able to endure the drawback and reap the benefit.

 

[The_Mask]

It could probably be fixed if Rapiers, Light Maces, and one other DEX weapon got some love. Not sure whether this has been done in dlc, but in the base game it hasn't.

I got two words for you: Twin Crystals.
It's like playing half the game a gimp, then the other as a god.

 

[Desiderius]

nok-nok and his half dozen attacks with sneak attack damage ends up "fitting" the context of a situation really well usually.

I have already made the point that DEX weapons look as if they were designed with Sneak Attacks in mind. But it is as if the itemization designer didn't know that STR builds can also do Sneak Attacks. (not to mention that there are enemies immune to Sneak Attacks)

Look, I do not even know why there is a debate on this. The difference between STR and DEX weapon options is vast. It could probably be fixed if Rapiers, Light Maces, and one other DEX weapon got some love. Not sure whether this has been done in dlc, but in the base game it hasn't.

Repeating your ipse dixit isn’t convincing anyone. Haps right about Enlarge + Two-hander + PA being a sweet spot, but that’s not about the item selection.

 

[Trashos]

A class with DR is going to be able to endure the drawback and reap the benefit.

Aha! Yes, that makes sense.

I got two words for you: Twin Crystals.

Twin Crystals is not Finessable. Not to mention that it is 2-handed. I do not see how it can be used by DEX builds.

I can't tell if you're trolling me or not.

I have to agree with Nano on this.
The fact that Neutral alignments can get away without fighting does not mean that the dungeon has been perfectly designed for the alignments that have to fight. Anyway, I believe that Armag's Tomb and City of Hollow Eyes are bigger culprits than Sycamore. (and this doesn't mean that I do not appreciate some cool ideas in Armag's Tomb)

Repeating your ipse dixit isn’t convincing anyone.

Come on, this is low. I gave a list of 600 billion awesome STR weapon focuses, and your reply was... daggers! There is no comparison at all.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Twin Crystals is not Finessable. Not to mention that it is 2-handed. I do not see how it can be used by DEX builds.

It's agile

 

[Desiderius]

There are more great Daggers than you can use (and no most of the damage isn’t sneaks), you’ve got Moskoni’s Rapier, some excellent Short swords, best one-hander in the game is Estoc, and even Bane of the Living if you want to get fancy.

Want to really wreak havoc DEX-based? Run around Disarming shit.

 

[Desiderius]

What’s your list of 600 billion STR weapons? I haven’t seen one. Do you even know what Edict does?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Bellyaching about Sycamore body count is silly. My first play through I remained neutral and waltzed through. My second play through I declared my intent to slay every little monster that fouled the breeze. Then I waltzed through, nearly as undeterred. I think the Mite Queen and her entourage might have troubled my righteous boot to stomp twice, but they too were mere wake.

I have only two complaints with Sycamore. The wisp casting Shield on itself, and perhaps the Worg Chest trap. Both of those are good examples of DMs giving you the middle finger.

 

[Desiderius]

Why do you need to Finesse Twin Crystals?

 

[Trashos]

Naming some good DEX weapons does not change anything. If I started naming the good STR weapons, the website would go down.

 

[Trashos]

All right, you guys give me ONE dude, just ONE dude, who made a serious DEX build designed around wielding that thing.

 

[Desiderius]

Bellyaching about Sycamore body count is silly. My first play through I remained neutral and waltzed through. My second play through I declared my intent to slay every little monster that fouled the breeze. Then I waltzed through, nearly as undeterred. I think the Mite Queen and her entourage might have troubled my righteous boot to stomp twice, but they too were mere wake.

I have only two complaints with Sycamore. The wisp casting Shield on itself, and perhaps the Worg Chest trap. Both of those are good examples of DMs giving you the middle finger.

If you have must clearitis you deserve a middle finger. Coming back later is one of most fun things you can do in a cRPG.

 

[Trashos]

What’s your list of 600 billion STR weapons? I haven’t seen one.

look at what STR builds get: Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Greataxes, Heavy Maces, Longswords, Dueling Swords are all awesome, and I may be forgetting some.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Your argument here is that I have to get a feat (multiple feats, in fact) so that I get something that STR builds get by default? Not acceptable.

It is entirely acceptable, because you get other things that Str builds do not get by default. This is what we call a trade-off in common parlance.

The first really good Rapier is sold outside HATEOT, in Ch6. Rapiers are really disappointing in terms of progression. Unless I am expected to be excited about the "Agile" trait, which is the best they get before HATEOT.

There is a good artisan one, there's a good one in Pitax (maybe two). I haven't played a rapier user in some time but I remember those. Beforehand the best is probably just an Agile one, but that is a good feature for a Dex build since you can defer Slashing/Fencing Grace.

Yes, I am aware. I am discussing weapon options.

Weapon options are the advantage that Str builds get for trading away the AC and Initiative bonuses they'd get if they went Dex instead.

I agree (although I would say that the most important thing is to-hit-chance), and what I am saying is that there is a huge variety of STR weapons with exciting effects (and good progression), and very few such DEX weapons.

In fact, most DEX weapons look like they are there just to provide the medium for a sneak attack to happen, and they are irrelevant otherwise.

People have been giving you examples of good Dex weapons. If you don't want to use them then take Slashing Grace for one you do want to use.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Serious build:

Nok-Nok with Mother's Care Kukri and Keen +1 Kukri at level 12 or whatever. I have lived this, he is fine and mostly keeps up with the stupid OP shit I'm doing with my MC. He can't do the monk dippery so the gigantic dex is appreciated from the small lad.

Edit: this argument is weird because you suggest that using pets and summons is OP and have house ruled against them, but can't see a basic finesse build as being able to even play the game or something

 

[NJClaw]

Serious build:

Nok-Nok with Mother's Care Kukri and Keen +1 Kukri at level 12 or whatever. I have lived this, he is fine and mostly keeps up with the stupid OP shit I'm doing with my MC. He can't do the monk dippery so the gigantic dex is appreciated from the small lad.

Edit: this argument is weird because you suggest that using pets and summons is OP and have house ruled against them, but can't see a basic finesse build as being able to even play the game or something

You can't wield Mother's Care without equipping Mother's Warmth in the other hand. It's highly illegal.

 

[Desiderius]

All right, you guys give me ONE dude, just ONE dude, who made a serious DEX build designed around wielding that thing.

It’s an easy slide for a two-weapon build. By that time you don’t have any problem hitting things so you don’t need the Finesse. Grab the Exotic Proficiency and own some ghosts.

I prefer one-handing with Dueling Swords but it would be very doable. Your problem is you don’t have a Bard so you’re missing 5AB/5dam a swing so are missing a lot more, especially on the off-hand/iteratives where DEX thrives.

Base Rogue can go toe to toe with anyone off the bat (Woljif the Eldritch Scoundrel is my top damage dealer in the Wrath Alpha) and Aldoris get there with Deft Strike or the Agile Sword then go off with AoOs, Pirhana Strike, Good Hope, and Freebooters Bane.

 

[Desiderius]

Just say no to Monk dip. Use Reduce Person to get the same thing and save a level.

 

[Trashos]

this argument is weird because you suggest that using pets and summons is OP and have house ruled against them, but can't see a basic finesse build as being able to even play the game or something

I am probably one of the very few people here who mainly use DEX builds for MC. And every time I present such a build, everyone attacks saying that I am stupid for not using STR instead (in nicer words). I did note this irony before.

This is not about power exactly, this is about being excited to design builds around a particular weapon. Which is much easier done for STR.

It is entirely acceptable, because you get other things that Str builds do not get by default. This is what we call a trade-off in common parlance.

I am all about trade-offs, and I am claiming that this specific trade off leaves a lot to be desired.

There is a good artisan one, there's a good one in Pitax (maybe two). I haven't played a rapier user in some time but I remember those. Beforehand the best is probably just an Agile one, but that is a good feature for a Dex build since you can defer Slashing/Fencing Grace.

Afaic, all finessable weapons should have been agile too.
The Rapier at Pitax is Vicious. It is crap.

People have been giving you examples of good Dex weapons.

Can you guys not see that this is not a good argument? Do you want me to actually count the good STR weapons to compare?

 

[Bigfass]

Serious build: Nok-Nok

Can you keep him alive on unfair though? I love the guy, he hits hard and he's funny AF but he's just too squishy.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Can you guys not see that this is not a good argument? Do you want me to actually count the good STR weapons to compare?

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. You only use 1 or 2 weapons at a time. So the count doesn't seem that relevant? Does my Nok-Nok lose anything if there were 1000 other similar options to his kukris or zero? Seems like when I am in The Heat of Battle playing the game, it just doesn't matter.

 

[Desiderius]

It is a good argument. Why are you being retarded?

All finessable agile what?

Ny first DEX build was a ploinker too. Precise Strike special. That’s because I was missing 80% of the damage sources. No excuse for you to be doing that at this point. Here’s a hint: they’re not items.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I am probably one of the very few people here who mainly use DEX builds for MC. And every time I present such a build, everyone attacks saying that I am stupid for not using STR instead (in nicer words). I did note this irony before.

I know what you mean, but I think there are different contexts that are getting entangled.

For example, in the "Which Sword Saint Build Is The Most Overcooked EVER??" or similar vivisectionist types of discussions, sure, not much point talking about Dex for very long. But in the "can I create a highly effective and interesting build for Hard" context, I think that Dex is a perfectly adequate.