Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Vicious isn’t necessarily crap. You can handle 30 damage to do 90-120.

STR-Viv is glass cannon.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Can you keep him alive on unfair though? I love the guy, he hits hard and he's funny AF but he's just too squishy.

Not sure. Hard is my benchmark, for the reasons you stated: I find Unfair doesn't really play differently, or at least in a way that is more tactically sophisticated or something, it just reduces the set of options available to me significantly. I've dabbled in making a solo unfair character and frankly I feel like the battles are actually more mundane than a full party with less optimization but on Hard.

If this is an Unfair only conversation then I will bow out, I have not reached Mythic levels of autism yet heh

 

[Lawntoilet]

Because you keep expressing skepticism that anyone else plays Dex builds, I'll just say that the first character I beat the game with was a Dex Magus. I took Scimitars and Slashing Grace and although he wasn't putting out Haplo-tier damage he was perfectly effective at dealing damage, and an excellent tank.

This is not about power exactly, this is about being excited to design builds around a particular weapon. Which is much easier done for STR.

Because Str has more weapon options, which they trade for AC and Initiative.

I am all about trade-offs, and I am claiming that this specific trade off leaves a lot to be desired.

Color me skeptical, since your proposal appears to be basically "make Dex give all the benefits of Str, except for carry weight, without removing any of the existing benefits of Dex.

Afaic, all finessable weapons should have been agile too.

Precisely what I mean. If you want +Stat to damage, take Rogue levels, take Fencing/Slashing Grace, or give up some AC and go Str instead. Dex is already a good stat, it does not need to be buffed just because it can't entirely replace Str.

Can you guys not see that this is not a good argument? Do you want me to actually count the good STR weapons to compare?

"Dex weapons suck"
"There are all these good ones though"
"But there are MORE good Str ones so your argument is bad!"
Come on man.
I feel like I've stated my position pretty clearly and offered you solutions to your problem (mainly, take Slashing Grace and quit complaining) so I've got nothing more to say on the matter.

 

[The_Mask]

Just say no to Monk dip. Use Reduce Person to get the same thing and save a level.

This guy knows.

 

[Bigfass]

Unfair only conversation

It's whatever you want it to be, I'm new here and stuff. Playing with a full party on unfair on a second playthrough and enjoying the hell out of it, despite many of the companions not being viable. I asked because IDK if it's me being retarded, or maybe most of them weren't meant to be useful at highest difficulty.

 

[Desiderius]

Unfair 6-man ends up just being about building in redundancy and seeing how few reloads you can manage, including on skill checks. Investing resources in those things ends up meaning less for just destroying everything when the rolls go right.

That applies directly to the DEX vs STR conversation, even more on initiative and skills than AC.

 

[Trashos]

I know what you mean, but I think there are different contexts that are getting entangled.

For example, in the "Which Sword Saint Build Is The Most Overcooked EVER??" or similar vivisectionist types of discussions, sure, not much point talking about Dex for very long. But in the "can I create a highly effective and interesting build for Hard" context, I think that Dex is a perfectly adequate.

I did not say it is not adequate. Most of my MC builds are DEX. However, I am claiming that STR builds are much more interesting in terms of weapon choice, and that the designers went overboard with cool weapons for STR, while they kinda neglected weapons for DEX.

t seems perfectly reasonable to me. You only use 1 or 2 weapons at a time. So the count doesn't seem that relevant? Does my Nok-Nok lose anything if there were 1000 other similar options to his kukris or zero? Seems like when I am in The Heat of Battle playing the game, it just doesn't matter.

You can play like that, sure, but you are missing some to-hit-chance, and you are also missing all the cool feats that are connected to Weapon Focus (Improved Critical, for example).

And even if you play like that, your options with DEX weapons are limited, while with STR weapons you are going to have many more options. From a design perspective, it is incomprehensible why this was done.

Color me skeptical, since your proposal appears to be basically "make Dex give all the benefits of Str, except for carry weight, without removing any of the existing benefits of Dex.

No, I am definitely not saying that. I am saying that a few more Weapon Focuses that are connected to DEX needed some love.

mainly, take Slashing Grace and quit complaining

I am afraid that I haven't been able to communicate my issue at all. Read above.

 

[Desiderius]

You have nothing to communicate.

"If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table."

 

[The_Mask]

And even if you play like that, your options with DEX weapons are limited

This +5 sickle deals electricity damage instead of physical damage. Whenever its wielder casts call lightning or call lightning storm spell, it becomes empowered, as if using the Empowered Spell feat.
This +5 sickle grants its wielder a shambling mound's ability to grab their foes.

Limited.

 

[Trashos]

This +5 sickle deals electricity damage instead of physical damage. Whenever its wielder casts call lightning or call lightning storm spell, it becomes empowered, as if using the Empowered Spell feat.
This +5 sickle grants its wielder a shambling mound's ability to grab their foes.

Limited.

That Sickle is outside HATEOT, btw. I hope you have fun with a Sickles playthrough.

I won't be answering to that kind of argument anymore. Here, knock yourselves out:
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Weapons

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Unfair only conversation

It's whatever you want it to be, I'm new here and stuff. Playing with a full party on unfair on a second playthrough and enjoying the hell out of it, despite many of the companions not being viable. I asked because IDK if it's me being retarded, or maybe most of them weren't meant to be useful at highest difficulty.

Sorry, my response came off douchey. I guess I’m a little defensive because the culture sometimes surrounding the game in other places is “doesn’t matter doesn’t work on unfair” and I am being a cranky shit head. Welcome to the site, I am new too, and now I’m curious too if Nok Nok can be optimized for Unfair!

 

[Desiderius]

This +5 sickle deals electricity damage instead of physical damage. Whenever its wielder casts call lightning or call lightning storm spell, it becomes empowered, as if using the Empowered Spell feat.
This +5 sickle grants its wielder a shambling mound's ability to grab their foes.

Limited.

That Sickle is outside HATEOT, btw. I hope you have fun with a Sickles playthrough.

I won't be answering to that kind of argument anymore. Here, knock yourselves out:
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Weapons

Trash is too tired to make an argument. Educate yourselves!

 

[Trashos]

I did make my arguments. At some point it is not my fault anymore.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

You can play like that, sure, but you are missing some to-hit-chance, and you are also missing all the cool feats that are connected to Weapon Focus (Improved Critical, for example).

And even if you play like that, your options with DEX weapons are limited, while with STR weapons you are going to have many more options. From a design perspective, it is incomprehensible why this was done.

I'm not sure I follow. What I meant is, if Nok Nok is kukri kukring with two good kukris for this stage of the game, it doesn't seem like whether he could be using something else is all that relevant. If he had 100 other options or 0, it doesn't really affect the kukris he's wielding. The man can only wield two. So I think to me, what's important is: "are there one [two if TWF] effective weapons available now?" Beyond those 1 or 2, it kind of doesn't matter a whole lot?

Your comments about weapon focus and improved critical support that point -- I can't even take advantage of the other non-kukri weapons without losing focus or improved crit, if I'm specced into them, so the pu pu platter of options is actually counterbalanced a bit by those feats.

 

[Desiderius]

There’s a decent Sickle in Dire Narlmarches IIRC. 1d6 light simple is dece.

 

[Desiderius]

I did make my arguments. At some point it is not my fault anymore.

You have yet to present your first example. Your head is so lost in the clouds you can’t bear to come down to earth and talk specifics.

Many such cases!

Whereas I have presented a litany, none of which you’ve deigned to engage.

 

[Trashos]

I won't go writing here all the cool STR weapon focuses and weapons. It is boring work, and the only thing that is going to come out of it is that you are all going to hate me for proving all of you wrong.

You can do it yourselves, however. Nothing is stopping you.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

But we haven't even started talking about bows ..

 

[Desiderius]

You can play like that, sure, but you are missing some to-hit-chance, and you are also missing all the cool feats that are connected to Weapon Focus (Improved Critical, for example).

And even if you play like that, your options with DEX weapons are limited, while with STR weapons you are going to have many more options. From a design perspective, it is incomprehensible why this was done.

I'm not sure I follow. What I meant is, if Nok Nok is kukri kukring with two good kukris for this stage of the game, it doesn't seem like whether he could be using something else is all that relevant. If he had 100 other options or 0, it doesn't really affect the kukris he's wielding. The man can only wield two. So I think to me, what's important is: "are there one [two if TWF] effective weapons available now?" Beyond those 1 or 2, it kind of doesn't matter a whole lot?

Your comments about weapon focus and improved critical support that point -- I can't even take advantage of the other non-kukri weapons without losing focus or improved crit, if I'm specced into them, so the pu pu platter of options is actually counterbalanced a bit by those feats.

Kukris are weak at the top end.

 

[Trashos]

I'm not sure I follow. What I meant is, if Nok Nok is kukri kukring with two good kukris for this stage of the game, it doesn't seem like whether he could be using something else is all that relevant. If he had 100 other options or 0, it doesn't really affect the kukris he's wielding. The man can only wield two. So I think to me, what's important is: "are there one [two if TWF] effective weapons available now?" Beyond those 1 or 2, it kind of doesn't matter a whole lot?

Your comments about weapon focus and improved critical support that point -- I can't even take advantage of the other non-kukri weapons without losing focus or improved crit, if I'm specced into them, so the pu pu platter of options is actually counterbalanced a bit by those feats.

Right, so my point is that it is important to have a specific weapon focus that you can follow from nearly start to finish. Note that I am not saying that this is absolutely necessary, I am saying that it is important, and I have given before my reasons why.

What does a Weapon Focus need so that you can follow it perfectly happy from nearly start to finish? It needs:
- decent progression (ie, there are decent representatives of this Weapon Focus throughout -you do not want to wield a +1 when everyone else is wielding a +5).
- some exciting representatives, which are basically why you chose this weapon focus.
- definitely exciting representatives at the end of game, so that by that point you don't feel that all the focusing was for nothing.
- hopefully some alternative options for different situations or for different styles of play, although this may be too much to ask.

I am claiming, and it is easily provable through the weapon list I provided above, that these requirements are fulfilled (to some decent extend) for several Weapon Focuses that are connected to STR, and much fewer Weapon Focuses that are connected to DEX. Therefore, some more DEX focuses needed love, ie work to satisfy the above requirements.

 

[bec de corbin]

It is actual bad design that some weapons you can specialize in are traps with zero useful or effective weapons. Not that Kingmaker's the only D&D rpg that has this problem, mind.

 

[The_Mask]

What does a Weapon Focus need so that you can follow it perfectly happy from nearly start to finish? It needs:
- decent progression (ie, there are decent representatives of this Weapon Focus throughout -you do not want to wield a +1 when everyone else is wielding a +5).
- some exciting representatives, which are basically why you chose this weapon focus.
- definitely exciting representatives at the end of game, so that by that point you don't feel that all the focusing was for nothing.
- hopefully some alternative options for different situations or for different styles of play, although this may be too much to ask.

Daggers.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I see now. I was confused because "Weapon Focus" is also the name of a feat

 

[Trashos]

Daggers.

Any other choice for DEX?

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

It is actual bad design that some weapons you can specialize in are traps with zero useful or effective weapons. Not that Kingmaker's the only D&D rpg that has this problem, mind.

You can step out of those shackles by allowing yourself to respec. I could see people considering that cheating, but I kind of think the alternative is consulting spreadsheets and doing all this metagaming before even playing so to each their own. I do agree though that I don't really see the value in it in the unmodded game, just makes blind playthroughs kind of a crapshoot or you are out their googling for answers