Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[razvedchiki]

There are plenty of great DEX weapons. Bloodhound is solid but DEX-based will almost certainly have other ways of getting DEX to damage by that point so the Agile is redundant.

I guess you could steal Swordsman’s Passion and use that but Menace is just better, and the Keen one isn’t bad either. That’s just Dueling Swords. There’s a host of other options.

1 lvl of aldori swordlord gives 1.5 dex to dmg or 3 lvls of rogue.

 

[Desiderius]

That’s just Dueling Swords.

Dueling Swords is all they have. (kukris are arguably OK too, but nothing impressive)

I used Rapiers for my Sword Saint, but other than the inherent expanded crit range they have nothing. Compare that to what STR weapons can get.

Your tendency toward timid narrow-mindedness is a poor fit for your usual well-measured sagacity.

 

[Trashos]

The point is that you should be comparing the DEX weapon options to the STR weapon options, not judging them on their own. The gap between STR and DEX is huge in terms of good options.

While we are on the topic of weapons, has anybody found any use for Vicious weapons? They look like a trap to me, am I missing something? EDIT: maybe they are intended for Fast Healing users?

 

[Desiderius]

Can confirm Spellstrike now working with Arrow of Law. Go off people.

 

[Desiderius]

The point is that you should be comparing the DEX weapon options to the STR weapon options, not judging them on their own. The gap between STR and DEX is huge in terms of good options.

While we are on the topic of weapons, has anybody found any use for Vicious weapons? They look like a trap to me, am I missing something? EDIT: maybe they are intended for Fast Healing users?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Desiderius]

The point is that you should be comparing the DEX weapon options to the STR weapon options, not judging them on their own. The gap between STR and DEX is huge in terms of good options.

While we are on the topic of weapons, has anybody found any use for Vicious weapons? They look like a trap to me, am I missing something? EDIT: maybe they are intended for Fast Healing users?

They’re for people who don’t get hit, but the weapons that have it aren’t great.

 

[razvedchiki]

anyone tried the skald class from call of the wild? thinking of droping valerie bard i use and a custom skald merc. his song disallows spellcasting if i understoond the description correctly but my party is melee heavy.

 

[Trashos]

Come on Desiderius , look at what STR builds get: Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Greataxes, Heavy Maces, Longswords, Dueling Swords are all awesome, and I may be forgetting some.

DEX builds get... Dueling Swords (which they share with STR). And arguably kukris for dual wielders. That's it.

 

[Haplo]

Come on Desiderius , look at what STR builds get: Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Greataxes, Heavy Maces, Longswords, Dueling Swords are all awesome, and I may be forgetting some.

DEX builds get... Dueling Swords (which they share with STR). And arguably kukris for dual wielders. That's it.

Well, estocs are finessable. Not a great progression, but... supposedly improved a bit. Beat kukuris in my book.

 

[Trashos]

They’re for people who don’t get hit, but the weapons that have it aren’t great.

But I will still lose health despite not being hit, just for hitting someone else. That's what the description says, isn't it? I don't get it.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Come on Desiderius , look at what STR builds get: Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Greataxes, Heavy Maces, Longswords, Dueling Swords are all awesome, and I may be forgetting some.

DEX builds get... Dueling Swords (which they share with STR). And arguably kukris for dual wielders. That's it.

There are some good Rapiers but if those don't float your boat, get Slashing Grace then.
Dex weapons shouldn't be as good as Str weapons unless you make some sort of feat investment. Dex gives other benefits that Str doesn't, like ranged options, AC, and Initiative.

 

[Desiderius]

Enlarge effects are broken, but just give Nok nok Edict and Troublemaker (or Lightning Duelist) and watch him go to town. Unique effects on weapons are more important than raw damage you can get other places.

 

[Trashos]

get Slashing Grace then.

Your argument here is that I have to get a feat (multiple feats, in fact) so that I get something that STR builds get by default? Not acceptable.

There are some good Rapiers

The first really good Rapier is sold outside HATEOT, in Ch6. Rapiers are really disappointing in terms of progression. Unless I am expected to be excited about the "Agile" trait, which is the best they get before HATEOT.

Dex gives other benefits that Str doesn't, like ranged options, AC, and Initiative.

Yes, I am aware. I am discussing weapon options.

Unique effects on weapons are more important than raw damage

I agree (although I would say that the most important thing is to-hit-chance), and what I am saying is that there is a huge variety of STR weapons with exciting effects (and good progression), and very few such DEX weapons.

In fact, most DEX weapons look like they are there just to provide the medium for a sneak attack to happen, and they are irrelevant otherwise.

 

[Trashos]

The funny thing is that I am knocking DEX weapons and you are all defending them, while in reality I am probably the only one here who is actually using them.

 

[Bigfass]

get Slashing Grace

You can get pretty stronk around level 6 and be a god by endgame with Slashing Grace. The build can be pretty simple around it.

Granted this guy is more of a tank than a damage dealer but he does allright even without buffs.

Spoiler

 

[Bigfass]

Your argument here is that I have to get a feat (multiple feats, in fact) so that I get something that STR builds get by default? Not acceptable.

The argument is that being able to use DEX for damage (via the feat) as well as tanking (by default) can provide a very compelling alternative to STR builds. It makes for a super painful early game (basically no weapons for you until you get the Agile Pick under the tree) but this only matters on unfair; otherwise you can respec or whatever.

 

[The_Mask]

There are no trash mobs.

What do you call the endless hordes of centipedes and spiders in the Sycamore caves?

I don't think you've played the game enough to call that map full of trash mobs. Give it a whirl on any Neutral (especially TN) path, and see how everything changes.

 

[The_Mask]

Come on Desiderius , look at what STR builds get: Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Greataxes, Heavy Maces, Longswords, Dueling Swords are all awesome, and I may be forgetting some.

DEX builds get... Dueling Swords (which they share with STR). And arguably kukris for dual wielders. That's it.

Sickles can also work.

 

[Nano]

I don't think you've played the game enough to call that map full of trash mobs. Give it a whirl on any Neutral (especially TN) path, and see how everything changes.

You mean staying neutral in the mite/kobold war? I've both done that before and sided with one of them in different playthroughs, how does it make things better?

 

[The_Mask]

I don't think you've played the game enough to call that map full of trash mobs. Give it a whirl on any Neutral (especially TN) path, and see how everything changes.

You mean staying neutral in the mite/kobold war? I've both done that before and sided with one of them in different playthroughs, how does it make things better?

I can't tell if you're trolling me or not.

 

[Desiderius]

Your argument here is that I have to get a feat (multiple feats, in fact) so that I get something that STR builds get by default? Not acceptable.

The argument is that being able to use DEX for damage (via the feat) as well as tanking (by default) can provide a very compelling alternative to STR builds. It makes for a super painful early game (basically no weapons for you until you get the Agile Pick under the tree) but this only matters on unfair; otherwise you can respec or whatever.

I did a whole series on the Aldori Swordlord a couple months back. I don’t know how he got this idea in his head. DEX-based is fine in any number of ways. STR-based ends up broken once you can supersize, but that takes awhile.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I kind of feel like the impact of a Great Weapon vs a Good Weapon is being overstated here. At least on Hard.

 

[Haplo]

STR-based ends up broken once you can supersize, but that takes awhile.

Please. I didn't actively try a Dex approach. But I've tried an early Sword Saint with a scimitar (same damage as rapier) and a bastard sword. Difference was HUGE with Enlarge. He was frequently one-shotting, maximum two-shotting enemies he needed multiple hits against with a scimmy.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I wonder if in practice it ends up being overkill though? You only need enough damage to kill something. I find that nok-nok and his half dozen attacks with sneak attack damage ends up "fitting" the context of a situation really well usually. He'll be in a pile of stupid barbarians or something and will use a a couple iteratives on each guy, an opportunist later, some outflanks etc and everything is Dead Enough.

The vast majority of the time, he has more attacks available than things within melee range.

I'm not disagreeing that you're going to get bigger numbers. Just not sure if the advantage is mitigated a bit by overkill damage not having advantages. And the nice "damge to life within melee range" fitting of a bunch of smaller attacks is really understated, I think.

 

[Trashos]

nok-nok and his half dozen attacks with sneak attack damage ends up "fitting" the context of a situation really well usually.

I have already made the point that DEX weapons look as if they were designed with Sneak Attacks in mind. But it is as if the itemization designer didn't know that STR builds can also do Sneak Attacks. (not to mention that there are enemies immune to Sneak Attacks)

Look, I do not even know why there is a debate on this. The difference between STR and DEX weapon options is vast. It could probably be fixed if Rapiers, Light Maces, and one other DEX weapon got some love. Not sure whether this has been done in dlc, but in the base game it hasn't.