Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Nazrielle had better bring me some Rapiers for my Rapier Wizard/Eldritch Knight. In my previous playthrough as a Rapier Sword Saint, she didn't bring me any (and yes, I was specifically asking for the rapier group, but it is not just rapiers in there). So I played all the way to the Rushlight Tournament with the +2 Strategem. Hopefully this time she will deliver.

In other news: I have to admit that the more time I spend with the Pathfinder system and the more I understand it, the more I respect it and like it. (Note that I am not in touch with the other current systems)

You do understand that a big advantage of EK over SS is that you have Martial Proficiency so can use any weapon you want, right? You’re wasting half of your class. Even Rogues and Bards can use Rapiers.

 

[Trashos]

I do not like playing without a weapon focus. Not to mention that Improved Critical loses its meaning without it. This build is not just an Eldritch Knight, he is a Rapier Eldritch Knight.

The extend to which Kingmaker supports weapon focuses is a different matter (ie, it supports it well only for specific weapons).

 

[Serus]

Did anyone play with the Craft Magic Items, how does it influence the game in practice? Does it make the game significantly easier or not?

1) Play on Unfair.
2) Craft Ring of Mirror Image with mercenary npc created for that single purpose.
3) ????
4) Profit!

I know you jest but...
I can use a cheat instead, would be faster. Or not play in the first place. BTW, the trick with reserve mercenary created only for crafting purposes might not work that well as you think. Crafting only advance during rest - iirc the description of the mod. You'd actually need to drag the guy along. As to ring of mirror images - i doubt that the mod allows to make one. Anyway you can stop yourself from doing it.

On the other hand, does the ability to make items you need and not rely on what you find or ability to make scrolls is a big help in practice or not? There are cost included (like need to use feats). If there is someone who actually played with the mod, please share your opinion.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Still having a great time with this game. I found myself caught in the endorphin loop of "....just one more rank up". While it does take quite a bit of time, I really enjoy the kingdom aspect. Having forged my nation state with cities, town, regional upgrades is very satisfying. Optimizing my settlement layouts for mechanical benefit as well as aesthetic/concept is a snare for my OCD. I could have completed this run a long time ago, but I really want to elevate the kingdom as high as I can before crossing that finish line.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I know you jest but...
I can use a cheat instead, would be faster. Or not play in the first place. BTW, the trick with reserve mercenary created only for crafting purposes might not work that well as you think. Crafting only advance during rest - iirc the description of the mod. You'd actually need to drag the guy along. As to ring of mirror images - i doubt that the mod allows to make one. Anyway you can stop yourself from doing it.

On the other hand, does the ability to make items you need and not rely on what you find or ability to make scrolls is a big help in practice or not? There are cost included (like need to use feats). If there is someone who actually played with the mod, please share your opinion.

There is a list of items you can make in the description of the mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/54
It does look like you can make rings or wondrous items with “cast x per day” enchantments.

Anyways, I have been considering the mod mostly for BTSL, since the item selection there is really meager and I’ll often end up with like a +5 pitchfork or something being the only great weapon, compared to the main campaign where they are falling out of the sky. As a case in point, the run before I built my Bloodrager there were two items on the vendor that avoided rage exhaustion. The actual run that I used my Bloodrager, there was nothing. I suppose I could use the Respec feature after I’ve figured out what the vendor actually has, if I wanted to be a purist.

I’m also using COTW, so itemization for the non-base classes is not quite as good. So that might be another incentive.

Re: Mirror image for everyone, not sure how I feel about that. It’s such a huge boost to survivability, but on the other hand, it’s readily available to a number of builds that don’t seem to give up much relative to classes who don’t have it available. I.E., you’re not really making a big sacrifice with a magus archetype over a barbarian and you get mirror image, and this is without any mods. Same with bards and other 2/3 casters.

So if the premise is that locked doors keep honest people honest and you should avoid making mirror image items available by avoiding the mod, well then there is nothing stopping you from running a couple kensai and soloing the game or whatever in vanilla, either. COTW exacerbates the issue, since you can take a Bloodrager, skald, archetypes etc and get mirror.

I think the main issue is that the encounter design is extremely vulnerable to pre-buffing. It would be interesting if they had more frequent dispelling encounters and more prebuffing of their own. Might widen the playing field a bit.

Anyways, tl;dr: Mirror image is too good and I don’t really know what to do about it other than just indulge in it but not going full retard, and I haven’t tried the crafting mod yet but I’m interested in it for next BTSL run.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

In other news: I have to admit that the more time I spend with the Pathfinder system and the more I understand it, the more I respect it and like it. (Note that I am not in touch with the other current systems)

Yeah, I’m coming to appreciate a splatbook heavy system like this for a cRPG. On tabletop, I’ve felt the burden of having to recall everyone’s artisanal build and keep track of all of these interrupts and crap, but the computer will track all that stuff for you and so it’s not really a burden. Great fit for a cRPG.

One potential flaw though that I’ve noticed is there is a bit of a feeling of rocket tag at many stages of progression. Most fights last 2-3 rounds or so, with a few exceptions, once your party is semi-optimized. And I’m not talking about full on vivisectionist karate serial killer builds, but like just Ekun and Jub doing their things will wreck shit.

This became really noticeable while taking a break to play, of all things, Dungeons of Nahbeulheuk. It has what I think many on codex would consider “hp bloat” or “bullet sponges”, and the CCs generally only last a round, but this adds way more texture to the encounters in my opinion. You have to look ahead to what the thing will be doing 3 or so rounds from now and dropping something immediately is often a full party effort.

Anyways, I don’t know how much of that is the system vs how much is the encounter design, itemization, etc. But Kingmaker with at about 0.5x playback speed would be good (and less trash encounters, more artisanal set pieces). Wish there were difficulty options to make the enemies just have flat more HP and make CC shorter duration or something. Unfair doesn’t feel any less rocket tag, just feels like I’m funneled into more optimized party to achieve the same tactics as lower difficulties.

Maybe a derpy house ruled party will be my next play through.

 

[Trashos]

This became really noticeable while taking a break to play, of all things, Dungeons of Nahbeulheuk. It has what I think many on codex would consider “hp bloat” or “bullet sponges”, and the CCs generally only last a round, but this adds way more texture to the encounters in my opinion.

I have not played Dungeons of THAT. Your description (slow battles, CC lasting very little) kinda reminds me of the PoE1 system, which I am not exactly missing. However, this detail:

You have to look ahead to what the thing will be doing 3 or so rounds from now and dropping something immediately is often a full party effort.

.. reminds me of the boss battles in BG2, where I knew exactly what each boss would do in each round. I liked that encounter system a lot. I have mentioned in my early writings ITT that the one thing I am missing from BG2 is the mage duels (round 1 he does this I do that, round 2 he does this I do that etc), and I am still missing them.

Other than that, however, this Pathfinder system is a lot of fun. I feel lucky that I have a chance to play such a rich system in this day and age, in a decently high profile release.
(I have lost track with what DnD has been doing. I will learn about it soon through BG3, although it is an expensive release, and I fear that they may dumb it down.)

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Going for another run with Skald, Ocean’s Echo Oracle (gets inspire courage), Eldritch Archer Magus, School Savant (Admixture) Arcanist, Winter Witch, Naturalist Summoner. I had fun blasting with the last party and the new metamagic feats so I wanted to try more of that with dazing, rime, etc on the Arcanist and Witch. Skald with a bunch of gishes is weird in theory but in practice with decline rage it sort of works and the two songs make up for everyone’s mongrel BABs.

Summoner is kind of clunky though, not sure if I will stick with that or maybe roll another Hunter, Sanctified Slayer, evil Warpriest, etc. Would like to get some Druid spells, too.

Update: Skalds are really sweet. Has cool stuff going on at all levels. Adding rage powers to the song is a neat mechanic, spell kenning lets you grab some good spells from wizards, can fight ok. Really could use like 10 more feats but can't have everything. Really pleased that they added them to the core in WotR.

Winter witch having hexes for down time and then an amped up DC for cold spells, which work well with the rime metamagic, is also novel. Other characters are kind of a bag of stats so far but it's early days.

 

[Sykar]

Nazrielle had better bring me some Rapiers for my Rapier Wizard/Eldritch Knight. In my previous playthrough as a Rapier Sword Saint, she didn't bring me any (and yes, I was specifically asking for the rapier group, but it is not just rapiers in there). So I played all the way to the Rushlight Tournament with the +2 Strategem. Hopefully this time she will deliver.

In other news: I have to admit that the more time I spend with the Pathfinder system and the more I understand it, the more I respect it and like it. (Note that I am not in touch with the other current systems)

You do understand that a big advantage of EK over SS is that you have Martial Proficiency so can use any weapon you want, right? You’re wasting half of your class. Even Rogues and Bards can use Rapiers.

Take elf as SS and enjoy free longsword proficiency!

 

[LannTheStupid]

Take elf as SS

The Elven Schutzstaffel. I like this idea.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Since you are into the weapon focus life, Trashos, you should consider the CotW mod. There are some more archetypes in there from pathfinder that offer rewards for weapon monogamy. The warpriest immediately springs to mind. There is even an archetype that gets weapon training. They have a lot of flavor and get to cast quickened personal buffs. There is also a fighter archetype that gets to share it's weapon training group with the rest of the party.

Edit: There are some additional feats that award specialization, too.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Oh yeah, there is a revelation in the battle mystery for oracles that gives you weapon focus, improved critical (8th level), and greater weapon focus (12th). Another payoff for focusing on a weapon type.

 

[Desiderius]

Hooked on Dungeons now. Reminds me of Tower of Time.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Noice. ‘Tis another sweet game.

 

[Trashos]

Since you are into the weapon focus life, Trashos, you should consider the CotW mod. There are some more archetypes in there from pathfinder that offer rewards for weapon monogamy.

I have not yet made the decision to get into the mods, but informative!

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Well, give it a whirl some day, even as an experiment. As someone who seems to be into the system mastery side of this and the pathfinder roots, I can say that I regret not exploring it sooner.

It’s really quite well implemented — it doesn’t really feel out of place other than a few modal spells and the like having 20+ options (like Skald spell kenning, but I love the class feature to death so ..). And it’s tasteful, in that there are actually some things that are nerfs to existing KM mechanics like the popular vital strike scaling or bonkers animal companions. So it’s not all just dialing everything up to 11 (although there are some quite powerful archetypes in there, but they exist in both the source and in other forms in Kingmaker. I still think I haven’t stumbled onto anything as ridiculous as an optimized grenadier, sword saint, slayer archer, vivi serial killer monk desu, etc. I could probably find something with more iteration but it seems like it’s just more breadth of OP instead of depth, if that makes sense.)

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

So, the buff bot mod is pretty interesting for BTSL. Probably speeds up game play about 2x. Easy to set up, not perfect but you can get it good enough.

The downside though is that it doesn't understand the Skald spell kenning and so if he has spell slots available it will try to cast every spell from his spell book, even if he's last in the sort order. I can work around it by draining his spell book first.

Edit: Actually the mod just seems fucked up and sometimes doesn't use spell slots. I supposed I could look into Holic's AI scripting mod since I think that would be more legit.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

NJClaw I think I read you recommending the Buff Bot at some point. Have you been able to get it to work properly on recent versions? The problem I’m seeing is that some buffs don’t seem to drain spell slots until I’ve used most of my casts of other spells up, which leads me to speculate it’s a problem when too many buffs are cast at once or something.

I was going to experiment later today with throttling the amount of buffs I delegate to the bot. I got a taste of what it’s like to not have to cast 20 spells by hand every rest cycle in BTSL and it’s haunting me

 

[NJClaw]

I got a taste of what it’s like to not have to cast 20 spells by hand every rest cycle in BTSL and it’s haunting me

I know. Once you eyes have been opened, it's hard to go back. Sadly, I can't help you: I haven't been playing the game for a while now.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I want to say, CoTW’s ported feats are like ambrosia for blasters. Stuff like:

- Rime adds save-less entangle to cold spells for +1 level
- Toppling adds trip CMB (int based) to force spells for +1 level
- Intensify adds 5 more levels of progression to capped caster-level-dependent spells for +1 level
- Persistent makes them test for saves twice for +2
- Dazing makes any damage spell test for a save or dazed, for +3
- Elemental can change the element of a spell for +1

- Mage tattoo increases the caster level of all spells in a school for +1

- Admixture Wizard School allows you to change the elements of spells multiple times daily

On the other hand, it nerfs AT sneak attack to be more like pnp with sneak not applying to more than 1 source of damage from a spell but frankly I am ok with ATs not being the hands down only blaster

 

[Joseph Stalin]

I want to say, CoTW’s ported feats are like ambrosia for blasters. Stuff like:

- Rime adds save-less entangle to cold spells for +1 level
- Toppling adds trip CMB (int based) to force spells for +1 level
- Intensify adds 5 more levels of progression to capped caster-level-dependent spells for +1 level
- Persistent makes them test for saves twice for +2
- Dazing makes any damage spell test for a save or dazed, for +3
- Elemental can change the element of a spell for +1

- Mage tattoo increases the caster level of all spells in a school for +1

- Admixture Wizard School allows you to change the elements of spells multiple times daily

On the other hand, it nerfs AT sneak attack to be more like pnp with sneak not applying to more than 1 source of damage from a spell but frankly I am ok with ATs not being the hands down only blaster

Don't forget properly implementing the "Magical Knack" trait AND restoring Spell Synergy - finally making a Mystic Theurge build fully viable.

 

[Trashos]

I have been looking at the numbers for Unfair. If I understand correctly, it is going to be +4 to hit for them and +4 AC also for them in comparison to Hard.

So, as far as I can see, there is going to be no tanking for a while. My question to Unfair players is at what point in the game (ie, what level) does tanking become viable on Unfair for fully devoted tanks? Not talking about mirror images and summons here, I am talking about straightup AC for TSS, Aldori Defenders, Sword Saints etc.

(not sure I am going to enjoy the lack of defense, but I will try it at least once at some point to see if I can figure any defense out. I do not enjoy "kill them fast or reroll" gameplay.)

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

NJClaw I think I read you recommending the Buff Bot at some point. Have you been able to get it to work properly on recent versions? The problem I’m seeing is that some buffs don’t seem to drain spell slots until I’ve used most of my casts of other spells up, which leads me to speculate it’s a problem when too many buffs are cast at once or something.

I was going to experiment later today with throttling the amount of buffs I delegate to the bot. I got a taste of what it’s like to not have to cast 20 spells by hand every rest cycle in BTSL and it’s haunting me

Ok I fucked around with it a bit and have managed to salvage some of it.

So, the casting order sliders in the UI seem to be non-functional. The mod uses the order of your party portraits at the bottom of the screen to determine who's slots get used. So you can kind of work around the spell kenning thing by putting the skald at the end of the list. Note, if you have buffs enabled that no one can actually cast but are on the skald's kenning list you will get them for free and THAT'S CHEATING, you fucker!

The other thing is it seems to not understand modal spells at all, like Magical Vestment. I think it thinks that each mode represents an individual slot, so when you try to cast magical vestment on two chracters, it will decrement the slot by 1. (This also interacts with the spell kenning modals by letting you cast things essentially 5 * 1 gorillion times). So you have to hard cast the modal spells.

All that said, if you just judiciously add spells to the list that you can actually cast, avoid any modal spells like magical vestment, keen edge, etc, and sort the party so anything weird is at the end of the list, you can cast most of your buffs this way pretty conveniently. Not sure it's worth the trouble unless you are embarking on a new playthrough or running through BTSL, since all of this bullshit favors incrementally adding buffs to the list as you get them.

 

[oldmanpaco]

So, as far as I can see, there is going to be no tanking for a while. My question to Unfair players is at what point in the game (ie, what level) does tanking become viable on Unfair for fully devoted tanks? Not talking about mirror images and summons here, I am talking about straightup AC for TSS, Aldori Defenders, Sword Saints etc.

The problem on unfair will always be critical hits. You can max your AC, CC the mobs, buff the shit out of your party but you will still get the random 250 pt critical that will end your day.

 

[Desiderius]

So, as far as I can see, there is going to be no tanking for a while. My question to Unfair players is at what point in the game (ie, what level) does tanking become viable on Unfair for fully devoted tanks? Not talking about mirror images and summons here, I am talking about straightup AC for TSS, Aldori Defenders, Sword Saints etc.

The problem on unfair will always be critical hits. You can max your AC, CC the mobs, buff the shit out of your party but you will still get the random 250 pt critical that will end your day.

No, you can get around that too*, but that's another level and you're not ironmanning the first five levels or anything. The last ten should be doable for anyone interested in it.

* - a simple way is to play classes like Chirurgeon and Ranger that have rezzes over those that don't. Rez doesn't have to be reload.