Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Lawntoilet]

It does not make sense for the opponents to do that

Are you saying that it doesn't make sense for your enemies to kill their enemies?

Trashos must be Canadian.

Well, the campaign is centered around (quite literally)

Spoiler

A FUCKING LEAF

I don't think that the AI focusing on killing your PCs is necessarily more logical than if the AI focused on incapacitating all of your PCs, then coup-de-grace-ing them when the threat has been neutralized, though ideally this behavior would depend on enemy type.

 

[Trashos]

LOL, I am Greek, not Canadian.
Not sure whether I managed to communicate what is going on. A companion is dead (not completely dead, just out for the battle), and opponents keep attacking said companion until utter death (which will need Raise Dead). So instead of trying to win the battle, they are trying to punish the player. It is BS, and completely unnatural.

That is also something that we, the players, cannot do. It is completely BS. I could see some bosses doing that for the intimidation factor, but when I see centipedes doing it, eh, it is BS. (luckily they did it to Jaethal, but still. Stag Lord did it to Val, sadly.).

That's the dilemma of all A.I. developers: if it is too weak players shit on it; but if it becomes good players can't overcome it and start raging on forums.

How many times have you seen me complaining about difficulty?
Not all difficulty is created equal though. Some is cool, some is BS. Like this one.

The game already has an issue with what companions are fit to be tanks. This just makes it worse.

 

[Shadenuat]

I vaguely remeber they first removed enemies finishing you off completely, then made it so only Unfair enemies do it

 

[Mexi]

I vaguely remeber they first removed enemies finishing you off completely, then made it so only Unfair enemies do it

Hm, I never had that issue when I was playing back in March. Did they update it to where enemies now try to permakill instead of winning the battle? That really is dumb. I probably wouldn't know either because I always reloaded as soon as someone fell since it's always Amiri--and that means the battle is lost regardless.

 

[Yosharian]

It only makes sense for certain enemies to do that.

Most monsters are not gonna prioritize killing a downed opponent over engaging a current threat unless they think the current threat.... Is not a threat.

An intelligent enemy, however, might have an alignment that encourages them to perform actions that might be viewed as 'stupid' or 'unrealistic' but actually aren't. A Chaotic Evil psychopath that takes immense pleasure in destroying other people's lives might well choose to plunge a knife into a downed character's heart over defending himself, just to see to the look on his friends' faces, or for the thrill of it.

Actually this could also apply to several monsters I can think of that also take great pleasure in evil acts.

But yeah most enemies should prioritize active opponents. A blanket rule like 'it always happens on Unfair' is definitely not the right way to do it.

 

[Xamenos]

An intelligent enemy, however, might have an alignment that encourages them to perform actions that might be viewed as 'stupid' or 'unrealistic' but actually aren't. A Chaotic Evil psychopath that takes immense pleasure in destroying other people's lives might well choose to plunge a knife into a downed character's heart over defending himself, just to see to the look on his friends' faces, or for the thrill of it.

Or he might think it a great way to demoralize his opponents. Or he might be smart enough to realize that in a setting where Divine magic is everywhere, the guy who's currently down might be fully Healed next round and there won't be another opportunity to take him out of the fight. My players certainly realize that fast the first time they fight an evil cleric and enemies that refuse to stay down.

I do agree a blanket rule isn't the right way, but the AI in KM is kinda crap anyway.

 

[NJClaw]

Not sure whether I managed to communicate what is going on. A companion is dead (not completely dead, just out for the battle), and opponents keep attacking said companion until utter death (which will need Raise Dead). So instead of trying to win the battle, they are trying to punish the player. It is BS, and completely unnatural.

But yeah most enemies should prioritize active opponents. A blanket rule like 'it always happens on Unfair' is definitely not the right way to do it.

Never killing a downed character is almost as wrong as always doing it. There are thousands of reasons why an enemy would want to waste a round or two finishing off an unconscious character: alignment (as pointed out by Yosharian), preventing possible healing (as pointed out by Xamenos), a specific agenda (summoned creatures, mindless undead, and devoted minions might do everything in their power to get in the party's way to please their master, and a dead character is a greater setback than two damaged ones, most of the times), specific tactics (maybe a giant centipede doesn't care about your party and just wants to eat: once he knocks a prey unconscious, he might drag the corpse away and ignore the rest of the party).

Both extremes are ridiculous, I hope they manage to find a compromise in WotR.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Honestly, enemy perma-killing downed character is something that I'm glad to have without, regardless of the quality of combat AI. If you want to do something like that put that shit as optional.

In a game balanced with a certain number of party members, especially with certain number of class combination, a permanently killed character means several things (especially in DnD based game like PF):

1. In low level, forcing a hard restart. You don't have money for the resurrection which is massively costly on low level. Losing critical party member in higher difficulty and having no way to resurrect them essentially soft-lock you from the game. And that's one. Losing more than that?

2. In mid-level, forcing a rest or even backtracking in case you don't have the catalyst. If the dungeon/game is designed that you can't rest or back-track, force a reload. Not to mention the monetary setback. In a game swimming with gold that might not be an issue, but in most cases, it is a reload state anyway if you need to lose 25% of your gold just to keep going.

3. In high-level the player will usually be equipped enough to handle that. Still depending on the condition might force rest or back-tracking anyway which is annoying.

Unless you are machosist who are iron-manning and don't mind losing hours of progress these are the kind of feature that I think waste the player time more than anything. Call me a casual scrub, but this is kind of feature that I can do without.

 

[LannTheStupid]

InD_ImaginE honestly, with your arguments I think the A.I. should always try to kill party members. Because on the meta-level it should not exist to live its own life, but to make the lives of the players as miserable as possible.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

InD_ImaginE honestly, with your arguments I think the A.I. should always try to kill party members. Because on the meta-level it should not exist to live its own life, but to make the lifes of the players as miserable as possible.

Sure, it makes sense in the "reality" of the game, but really, a game's purpose is to entertain. Even in what little PnP I play, the GM job (in this case the game designer job) is not to make the player's life as miserable as possible but to keep a certain challenge level (especially in PnP as PnP is technically always "ironman"). Video game has luxury of reloading but it is still a waste of time in my opinion.

If the players are signing up for hardcore combat rule that force every death to be massively costly then do so, but either the game make it optional or the game is just not for me in that case. Or I will just play it in Easy just not to have to deal with that if it is forced to me. In PnP if this is a major diverging view on combat then I will just leave the table.

Mind you I don't mind certain cases where it is by design on certain encounters that the enemy do so. Say being eaten by a big worm and losing HP inside will always result in death. But having most humanoid enemy doing coup de grace is too much.

 

[NJClaw]

If the players are signing up for hardcore combat rule that force every death to be massively costly then do so, but either the game make it optional or the game is just not for me in that case.

Kingmaker already gives options to avoid permanent deaths.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

If the players are signing up for hardcore combat rule that force every death to be massively costly then do so, but either the game make it optional or the game is just not for me in that case.

Kingmaker already gives options to avoid permanent deaths.

No. I want permadeath. See, in PF there spells that deal with that within combat (Breath of Life, Inspiring Recovery). Sometimes I fucked up or sometimes the enemy gets massive crits and I need to resurrect someone. I usually still do that and eat up the cost.

But having most enemies always doing coup de grace is another thing entirely. It basically raises the tedium bar to be very high where every knocked down will almost always result in perma-death. Not to mention the implication this has on overall balance. This is like Hardcore mode in Path of Exile, it basically shoehorns you into certain builds when designing characters.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Don't play Unfair, then? Also, if this "killing" is implemented as coup de grâce (which is not obvious from what was described above), then it is a brilliant opportunity for attacks of opportunity (hehe), because this ability takes the whole round and provokes everything that can be provoked.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Don't play Unfair, then?

Or you know, make this behavior optional?

I might enjoy Hard/Unfair buffed enemies. I might enjoy having perma-death within a reasonable margin. But I might not enjoy this behavior at all.

As I said, if these behaviors are enforced by game design I will just switch to normal/easy no problem so I don't have to deal with it (on the virtue of the game being a cakewalk that getting knocked isn't a concern). But I'd rather play with a reasonable mechanical challenge without having a certain "hardcore" behavior that I personally find to be tedious and force a certain build/playing style from the player.

EDIT: note that I am just against the coup de grace behavior in particular. I am all for more competent enemy AI. Heck I am all for that most enemies are knocked down and are healable/ressurectable from that state instead of dying when they reach 0 HP (make the enemy use the same rule with the player, essentially).

 

[Trashos]

Note that I reloaded the centipedes region (Sycamore) from Unfair to Hard, and I still got the same behavior. I cannot be sure that the AI was fully reloaded, though.

It is not always Coup de Grace (it wasn't CdG when the Stag Lord did it), but it could be CdG sometimes, I am not sure. The centipede animation does look like a CdG.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It is not always Coup de Grace (it wasn't CdG when the Stag Lord did it), but it could be CdG sometimes, I am not sure. The centipede animation does look like a CdG.

What does the log say?

 

[Trashos]

Didn't notice, and I am well past it now, I have to find another occasion. Currently doing the baronation.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Sooo... you're an engineer. You see something unusual in the system you're working with. In this case the system is the game. You have a question about the mechanics of the game.

You are not playing Last Azlanti, so it is easy to reload the fight and pay more attention to details. You have the log which is pretty accurate (in opposite to in-game descriptions). You can redo the fight several times while checking the log. May be there is some explanation of what the A.I. is trying to do.

You do none of that and just discuss on the forum.

OK... I guess...

 

[LannTheStupid]

On a more cheerful note:

 

[Trashos]

I have 100s of questions about the mechanics of the game. If I were checking them all, I would not be playing. Everything else depends on mood.

Right, discussing on the forum is crucial. Why do the checking if other people have the answer?

 

[Efe]

sometimes you need another perspective.

 

[Trashos]

Awesome news for those of you who were looking for a mundane quarterstaff or two. Hassuf now sells 1000 of them.
Jhod and Tristian do not hang out together in the capital square anymore for some reason. (EDIT: They hang out together in the next loading of the square, so everything is fine in the world again.)

Who does your party consists of, including your main character?

At the ancient tomb my party is:
MC Wizard (Illusion/Enchantment)
Val
Linzi tank (but a poor one in CH1)
Amiri
Lawful Good mercenary Cleric, 2500 XP less than the others

...and after the Tomb, Jaethal tank. I should probably take Jaethal at the mansion, turn her into a tank, and pick up Linzi at the tomb.

My later party is going to be MC Wiz, Jaethal tank, Linzi tank, Ekun, Jubilost, mercenary Cleric.

 

[Max Damage]

Is there no way to dismiss spells? Grease starts out with a whole minute duration, there's no way I'm going to wait this much/caster level after a fight is over.

 

[LannTheStupid]

There are ways to overcome the difficult terrain that some spells create, be it items or other spells.

 

[Haplo]

Is there no way to dismiss spells? Grease starts out with a whole minute duration, there's no way I'm going to wait this much/caster level after a fight is over.

You're mistaking it with Web, perhaps? Grease lasts rounds per level.
Mods let you dismiss aoe spells.