Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Grunker]

Deliverer can cheat on Weapon prof, for example picking Ioiri to get crane style without a monk dip or spending a feat on improved unarmed. Slayer isn't exactly an "optimal" class but I've been having fun with it and shield bash

 

[vazha]

I see. But usually you d still want that monk dip if you re going with the off hand empty/monk weapon, because free flurry is nice, no?

 

[Grunker]

I see. But usually you d still want that monk dip if you re going with the off hand empty/monk weapon, because free flurry is nice, no?

Sure. I generally don't do the whole monk-dipping on everyone shebang because the game doesn't really require that kind of min-maxing. I'm playing on unfair without a single monk-dip and doing just fine.

 

[Grunker]

I don't run shatter defenses on all my melees either. Though I do run Outflank.

 

[vazha]

funny, I dont run those two (0 teamwork feats, for some reason dislike them, though well aware how useful they are), but almost everyone in my team has some sort of monastic training. Everything's fine here too. I am also partial to dragon disciples, all those shiny bonuses (boni?) are too tempting.

 

[Desiderius]

Monk dips are bad unless you have high WIS or CHR and usually they're still bad. All you get is D and even that is clunky (doesn't turn on until after you need it) and situational. It never ceases to amaze how much care people take and expertise they develop without ever encountering the concept of opportunity cost. Pathfinder design is built around abilities that scale with class level. My play took a leap when I just said no to monk dips.

DD is bad because the boni are tiny and easily gotten via items and Enlarging and whatnot. Teamwork Feats are good (the radius is actually 5m instead of 5ft) but there aren't enough of them. Missing Outflank is akin to about half a difficulty level if you have wide crit ranges.

Sorc 10/DD 10 fighting in Dragonform III isn't going to embarrass itself or anything but the pathing is awful and it takes awhile to get there.

 

[Haplo]

Monk dips are bad unless you have high WIS or CHR and usually they're still bad.

They are often not necessary. But calling them bad? How can ~20 extra AC and likely a boost to saves be bad? You don't sacrifice BAB here and even get a bonus feat from this deal. And can even flurry with certain weapons, at no AB loss.
Monk dips are almost never bad. Broken - maybe.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't run shatter defenses on all my melees either. Though I do run Outflank.

Yeah, iteratives aren't that big of a thing on melee, and AoOs/Cleave/Vital get full BAB which should be enough.

 

[NJClaw]

And can even flurry with certain weapons, at no AB loss

Even if the AC bonus is probably overkill most of the times, I love seeing my Paladin flurrying with his quarterstaff. It makes me feel like a Jedi. You miss the armor that gives you smite uses, but you can always wear it whenever you feel like smiting some more evil.

 

[Delterius]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just be motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

 

[Desiderius]

Monk dips are bad unless you have high WIS or CHR and usually they're still bad.

They are often not necessary. But calling them bad? How can ~20 extra AC and likely a boost to saves be bad? You don't sacrifice BAB here and even get a bonus feat from this deal. And can even flurry with certain weapons, at no AB loss.
Monk dips are almost never bad. Broken - maybe.

Again, you can't evaluate it without looking at the opportunity cost or diminishing returns. As I said if you've got the high WIS/CHR that's a different conversation but most people monk-dipping don't. You still have to want a bunch of extra AC which you don't need if you're playing tight and you don't get when you need it (flatfooted, since you haven't attacked yet so haven't turned Fighting Defensively on). And what saves are we talking about? Can still critically miss with 100 Will. Ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure.

General principle is monk-dipping is for soloing/unfairing ch1 without scaling, neither of which is really playing the game as designed. You pay the price for that early defense by retarding the progress of your class for the rest of the game. Offense has nearly infinitely increasing returns (like accuracy in Deadfire), defense doesn't.

 

[mondblut]

So, is it fixed yet?

 

[Desiderius]

RPing Monk dips is awesome. Just don't think you're breaking the game or anything. You're usually gimping yourself. Likewise with Deliverer. People get a couple situational d6 and lose their goddamned minds.

 

[Haplo]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

I guess you could. But at that point, you generally don't need to sweat so much and you could generally also afford to cast an offensive aoe or 2 and be done without all the dirty work... and without wasting spell slots on buffing.
Of course its even easier with an AT or such.

 

[Desiderius]

Deliverer can cheat on Weapon prof, for example picking Ioiri to get crane style without a monk dip or spending a feat on improved unarmed. Slayer isn't exactly an "optimal" class but I've been having fun with it and shield bash

There is nothing suboptimal about Slayer, unless you're playing Deliverer, which is just a gimped Slayer that will get you killed.

 

[Grunker]

Quarterstaff monks are certifiably hilarious to play, I can stand by that. Playing once with a pala dip in Varnhold, it's hilarious

 

[Grunker]

Deliverer can cheat on Weapon prof, for example picking Ioiri to get crane style without a monk dip or spending a feat on improved unarmed. Slayer isn't exactly an "optimal" class but I've been having fun with it and shield bash

There is nothing suboptimal about Slayer, unless you're playing Deliverer, which is just a gimped Slayer that will get you killed.

I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not broken. Which is exactly perfect. And with regards to Deliverer: it's the best for dips and the worst for main class IMO.

 

[Desiderius]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just be motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

The point of Wild Shaping and the like is getting iteratives without the -5s. The worse your BAB the better it is. It doesn't alter it so much as make it (mostly) moot. As you say, caster into Shifter is great fun and pretty damn effective.

 

[Delterius]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

I guess you could. But at that point, you generally don't need to sweat so much and you could generally also afford to cast an offensive aoe or 2 and be done without all the dirty work... and without wasting spell slots on buffing.

The idea is this: the appeal of turning into a dragon can be an entirely thematic thing to you. In which case you can just go full caster. You'll be in your prime over the whole game, from 1 to 20, instead of waiting for the first 50 hours of poor man's Magus to pass so you can be a maximized Dragon.

Plus, a Wizard would get those spells way faster.

In the end, I want this kind mood instead of being a quasi melee'er.

 

[Desiderius]

If you've figured out how not to die from Diehard it's only bad and not awful. Those Rogue Talents/Trapfinding/Combat Style are the reason to play the class! Why people throw them away so readily is mystifying.

And if you're going to throw them away why not something useful like Uncanny Dodge on Vanguard?

 

[Delterius]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just be motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

The point of Wild Shaping and the like is getting iteratives without the -5s. The worse your BAB the better it is.

What about your chance to hit with those attacks? Will you still be able to hurt, say, the cyclopes in Vordakai's tomb or the Ghostly Guards in the endgame?

 

[Desiderius]

Well, that's a lot of points, thanks for making an effort, appreciate it.

Ok, lets start one by one. I wont touch the matters of taste, i.e. whether Ekun is Kang or Neck, just builds.

• On Amiri - I am kinda torn between optimality and immersion there. I do want to have that smilodon on her and freebooter, as nifty as his bonus is, would gimp the beast. What I went instead is Mad Dog 2(I think?), ranger 4 (for lead blades, favored fey and free style feat) and now the rest will go into huntmaster, for the resounding blow etc. Thinking about the ways of obtaining sneak damage though.

Yeah it's either/or really between pet and Booter. With the exception of Mad Dog (which regular Amiri can't get) Pet classes want to do at least some casting, which doesn't fit great with her 12 WIS*. I've played her as Huntmaster and Defender of the True World and it was fine but not really taking advantage of the class or her strengths. Easier to make Tristian dominant in melee with his 9 STR than to make Amiri a decent caster with her 12 WIS because there are just way more ways to boost STR/AB than WIS/DC. With Booter/Barb you can give the whole team +8AB (with some damage thrown in one Bane) without having to even spend a Standard Action. Hard to beat that. Other thing is you really don't want more than one pet due to pathfinding/buff costs and there are other companions that fit better with a pet.

Amiri’s the last toon that needs to worry about Sneaks, and four levels of Ranger for Lead Blades really isn’t worth it.

* - Ranger is late pet so awkward with Barb splash.

 

[Desiderius]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just be motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

The point of Wild Shaping and the like is getting iteratives without the -5s. The worse your BAB the better it is.

What about your chance to hit with those attacks? Will you still be able to hurt, say, the cyclopes in Vordakai's tomb or the Ghostly Guards in the endgame?

[
Yes. You get a big STR-boost typed Polymorph. Worst case you’re still just 10 behind a Fighter’s best attack on raw BAB which may sound like a lot until you realize we’re talking about ABs in the 40s and 50s. Then your iteratives stay at that level while his fall off -5 per.

 

[Haplo]

Monk dips are bad unless you have high WIS or CHR and usually they're still bad.

They are often not necessary. But calling them bad? How can ~20 extra AC and likely a boost to saves be bad? You don't sacrifice BAB here and even get a bonus feat from this deal. And can even flurry with certain weapons, at no AB loss.
Monk dips are almost never bad. Broken - maybe.

Again, you can't evaluate it without looking at the opportunity cost or diminishing returns. As I said if you've got the high WIS/CHR that's a different conversation but most people monk-dipping don't. You still have to want a bunch of extra AC which you don't need if you're playing tight and you don't get when you need it (flatfooted, since you haven't attacked yet so haven't turned Fighting Defensively on). And what saves are we talking about? Can still critically miss with 100 Will. Ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure.

General principle is monk-dipping is for soloing/unfairing ch1 without scaling, neither of which is really playing the game as designed. You pay the price for that early defense by retarding the progress of your class for the rest of the game. Offense has nearly infinitely increasing returns (like accuracy in Deadfire), defense doesn't.

I think most people dipping monk have at least moderate Wis or Cha scores. Which can translate into something like 28 late game. 1 level dip doesn't delay the main class progression much. Or stunt offense.

 

[Haplo]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just be motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

The point of Wild Shaping and the like is getting iteratives without the -5s. The worse your BAB the better it is.

What about your chance to hit with those attacks? Will you still be able to hurt, say, the cyclopes in Vordakai's tomb or the Ghostly Guards in the endgame?

Cyclopes might be a bit early for this to be effective?
Ghastly Guards are definately better disposed with spells.
Or a Ghost Touch weapon (which can be any weapon on a magus and, I think, Pal).