Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Pure caster gets there faster than you might think. Sorc can get Dragonform I at lvl 12. It’s awkward in Tomb though so you can just bring the nukes there.

 

[Desiderius]

Could a full caster use Dragonform spells to deal with trash fights in mid to late game? Say, you start with 12 strength, get +2 inherent bonus from the potion and eventually +16 from belt and Dragonform. You have 5 attacks per round at, I assume, some reach (never used any dragonform spells). You're still a full caster and you'll still just be motherfucking polar raying the final boss dead, but while dungeon crawling you'll be contributing a bit to aggregate damage at all times. Yes/No?

Note: does Dragonform alter your BAB in any way?

The point of Wild Shaping and the like is getting iteratives without the -5s. The worse your BAB the better it is.

What about your chance to hit with those attacks? Will you still be able to hurt, say, the cyclopes in Vordakai's tomb or the Ghostly Guards in the endgame?

Cyclopes might be a bit early for this to be effective?
Ghastly Guards are definately better disposed with spells.
Or a Ghost Touch weapon (which can be any weapon on a magus and, I think, Pal).

Half of a ton of damage is still a ton of damage. If you take out the Mage and/or protect yourself from Death/Disease they’re not going to one shot you although I guess the Rogues can get some Sneaks in.

 

[Desiderius]

Monk dips are bad unless you have high WIS or CHR and usually they're still bad.

They are often not necessary. But calling them bad? How can ~20 extra AC and likely a boost to saves be bad? You don't sacrifice BAB here and even get a bonus feat from this deal. And can even flurry with certain weapons, at no AB loss.
Monk dips are almost never bad. Broken - maybe.

Again, you can't evaluate it without looking at the opportunity cost or diminishing returns. As I said if you've got the high WIS/CHR that's a different conversation but most people monk-dipping don't. You still have to want a bunch of extra AC which you don't need if you're playing tight and you don't get when you need it (flatfooted, since you haven't attacked yet so haven't turned Fighting Defensively on). And what saves are we talking about? Can still critically miss with 100 Will. Ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure.

General principle is monk-dipping is for soloing/unfairing ch1 without scaling, neither of which is really playing the game as designed. You pay the price for that early defense by retarding the progress of your class for the rest of the game. Offense has nearly infinitely increasing returns (like accuracy in Deadfire), defense doesn't.

I think most people dipping monk have at least moderate Wis or Cha scores. Which can translate into something like 28 late game. 1 level dip doesn't delay the main class progression much. Or stunt offense.

One level behind the whole game is the equivalent to twenty behind at level one. It’s (way) more than you think. Try it.

And no people splashing Monk on their Slayers and Vivis aren’t getting enough AC from their WIS/CHR to justify going naked and missing out on the excellent Light/Medium Armors like Ghost Leather.

 

[vazha]

Just hit 46 ac on 8 th lvl valerie. Still chapter 2, nothing even scratches her, hargulka was hitting at 18. If might be a mess, but its a lovely lovely mess. Surrounds herself with webs and greases and tanks merrily away, while Enlarged team pokes from safe distance and Obama does his sniping bow thing. Bliss. Monk1/ Kinetic Knight/ Bard3 / DD 3. Still carrying a shield though, which will be discarded on lvl 9 and crane wing.

p.s. does aldori dueling mastery shield bonus stack with shield spell / kinetic knight water stance shield bonus? If not, it's kinda useless since you're better served with a lvl 1 spell.

 

[Desiderius]

Just hit 46 ac on 8 th lvl valerie. Still chapter 2, nothing even scratches her, hargulka was hitting at 18. If might be a mess, but its a lovely lovely mess. Surrounds herself with webs and greases and tanks merrily away, while Enlarged team pokes from safe distance and Obama does his sniping bow thing. Bliss. Monk1/ Kinetic Knight/ Bard3 / DD 3. Still carrying a shield though, which will be discarded on lvl 9 and crane wing.

p.s. does aldori dueling mastery shield bonus stack with shield spell / kinetic knight water stance shield bonus? If not, it's kinda useless since you're better served with a lvl 1 spell.

Unless you’re playing Easy Harg can still handle 46AC* fine although your head is getting close to hard enough to break down that wall. We’ve all had our fill of tank and spank, why not try this game instead?

* - I could probably get to 46 there if my life depended on it (although there are far easier ways to tackle the problem, don’t even usually bring Val to Trobold) but we’re going to need pics for you.

Aldori Dueling also gets you +2 initiative, lets you use Dueling Sword as if Piercing (necessary for Duelist Class), and the Shield Spell is Personal and unavailable to Bards.

 

[vazha]

Playing on unfair. Dont know what all that head & wall nonsense is about, to be honest.

Handled Hargulka without much tanking btw, after his initial turn (and misses on Val), hold person & mercy kill from main char resulted in chunky explosion. Tartuk was having the time of his life in stinking cloud meanwhile. Also, the ranger hits something fierce with that oversized bow. I suppose hurricane bow & enlarge person helps too.

Re: Aldori, with a lovely vivi dip or two & infusion, shield is free for everyone. Good times. Therefore Aldori mastery becomes obsolete. Shame, that, it'd be an exotic build if the bonus was stackable. It also gives reduces your attack penalty when fighting defensively i think, which would mean just -1 attack if you have defensive stance & crane & aldori all activated.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, that’s the point. He doesn’t need to be tanked, and if you build a toon for the (in fact futile whatever you’re claiming) task of tanking him you gimp that toon for every other purpose. The whole point of the Hargulka encounter is to free people from the tired tank and spank mindset.

But you’re evidently hard-headed enough to keep beating your head against that wall even when there’s a door standing open right next to it, along with a lot of other people who complained that the game was too hard based on that encounter.

Base TSS Val does everything you’re doing while still retaining her full BAB and a shit ton of Bonus Combat Feats that you can use to make her skilled with CMs or do solid damage or whatever else you like while taking advantage of the strong Heavy Armors and Tower Shields that would otherwise go to waste. TSS 1/Bardx or TSS1/Feyspeaker are also very strong contributors throughout the game. You’ve blown your wad for a high AC at a specific point in the game at the cost of all offensive effectiveness.

 

[Desiderius]

Re: Aldori, with a lovely vivi dip or two & infusion, shield is free for everyone. Good times. Therefore Aldori mastery becomes obsolete. Shame, that, it'd be an exotic build if the bonus was stackable. It also gives reduces your attack penalty when fighting defensively i think, which would mean just -1 attack if you have defensive stance & crane & aldori all activated.

God save us, we’ve got another theorycrafter on our hands. No, a Vivi splash doesn’t mean free Shields for everyone since your duration is crap on splashes and you want Feral on a Vivi Splash or what are you even doing? Vivi 4 is more than a splash and will blow a massive hole in the effectiveness of whatever else you were trying to accomplish. It’s a fine class but a bad splash because all it gives you is stats that you can easily get elsewhere. Compare to Rogue 4 that gets you Evasion, Dodge, DEX-to-damage, and Debilitating.

Aldori Dueling is really too narrow to be of much note but I do take it on Swordlord main mostly for convenience since I usually have Jub along who could throw a Shield on. With Disarm and solid AC on all my melee he’s not getting hit a lot but the +2 AC is in a sweet spot where it usually means the difference between being hit on a 4 or so vs a 2, which is enough when every toon is an offensive threat and the +2 initiative on top of high DEX means he’s usually hitting before getting hit.

 

[vazha]

Well, no need to be that condescending no matter how good you might be ))

4 vivi on my aasimar means infusion & extended potion = shield for everyone who needs it for 4 minutes. I dont need feral because I will get wings anyway and since I am enlarged all the time there is no point in obtaining bite. Vivi 4 also gives me 3/4 bab, two sneak attacks and 40 minute dex mutagen that i d not get otherwise. If there is any holes in there, I dont see them because my dude is doing just fine on unfair. Monk / Pally 2 / Rogue 4 / Vivi 2 atm, with two handed fighting, finesse training going on. Can off tank just fine when needed, got flurry going on & buffs to attack from healbot and val's bardsong. Got Combat expertise & crane just in case i might need to lay on heavily on offtank duties. Dude is versatile as hell and at the cost of -2 bab that I havent even felt ever since his bab got to 6. He chunkifies big things that are easy to hit and can duel on par with the agile ones until a handy will / fortitude save fail procs on them.

 

[Desiderius]

Three unique things Harrim brings to the table: Destructive Aura, Touch of Chaos, and + 4 racial AC vs Giants. And then there’s fast spell Cleric spell progression which can dominate the game on its own.

Healbots aren’t a thing. Healing is poor action economy. Look forward to you playing this game rather than trying to shoehorn it into the games we’re all tired of. I suspect you’ll enjoy it.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, no need to be that condescending no matter how good you might be ))

4 vivi on my aasimar means infusion & extended potion = shield for everyone who needs it for 4 minutes. I dont need feral because I will get wings anyway and since I am enlarged all the time there is no point in obtaining bite. Vivi 4 also gives me 3/4 bab, two sneak attacks and 40 minute dex mutagen that i d not get otherwise. If there is any holes in there, I dont see them because my dude is doing just fine on unfair. Monk / Pally 2 / Rogue 4 / Vivi 2 atm, with two handed fighting, finesse training going on. Can off tank just fine when needed, got flurry going on & buffs to attack from healbot and val's bardsong. Got Combat expertise & crane just in case i might need to lay on heavily on offtank duties. Dude is versatile as hell and at the cost of -2 bab that I havent even felt ever since his bab got to 6. He chunkifies big things that are easy to hit and can duel on par with the agile ones until a handy will / fortitude save fail procs on them.

Wings will cost you another Feat for more stats. Once you discover that stats are plentiful while Feats are not you’ll be playing a whole new game. Are you not getting your artisans up in time? Are you soloing? 4 minute buffs are more trouble than they’re worth.

 

[vazha]

The only reason I ve been posting in this thread is that I ve been enjoying my game immensely (unlike the first run which was a slog and a grindfest) and wanted to share my "findings", good man. Fun is a matter of perspective, I am having it in spades with my little tinkering and seeing the results pay off ))

Re: Harrim, his AC is an unsalvageable mess, especially if you like to spam grease & web everywhere like I do. There is just no saving it with a 4 racial ac. Aura can be a double-edged sword and I havent got time to melee attack with clerics, they are busy raining down holy vengeance upon enemies and animating dead left and right.

 

[vazha]

Wings will cost you another Feat for more stats. Once you discover that stats are plentiful while Feats are not you’ll be playing a whole new game. Are you not getting your artisans up in time? Are you soloing? 4 minute buffs are more trouble than they’re worth.

You cant be serious, surely? 4 minutes are enough for any tough encounters on any given map, and can be the difference between party wipe and unscathed victory. And there are enough per hour buffs around not to waste them on regular mobs.

 

[Desiderius]

We’re just playing different games. I cast my min/lvl buffs like Shield of Faith, Barkskin, Shield as available/necessary, and Good Hope with an Extend Rod at the beginning of the dungeon and everyone slays.

You piddle around with healing and first level friendly fire spells and tanks with +1 daggers. If you’re having fun knock yourself out. There is another way.

 

[Desiderius]

The only reason I ve been posting in this thread is that I ve been enjoying my game immensely (unlike the first run which was a slog and a grindfest) and wanted to share my "findings", good man. Fun is a matter of perspective, I am having it in spades with my little tinkering and seeing the results pay off ))

Re: Harrim, his AC is an unsalvageable mess, especially if you like to spam grease & web everywhere like I do. There is just no saving it with a 4 racial ac. Aura can be a double-edged sword and I havent got time to melee attack with clerics, they are busy raining down holy vengeance upon enemies and animating dead left and right.

Harrim with Giantslayer Clasp is around 40 for Trobold and 46 for VTomb which is enough with Touch of Chaos on the heavy hitters and Okbo a couple AC higher. Why is Aura a double edged sword? Thought you were tanking Hargulka?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Dips can be really good in this game because of stat bloat. My second run was a Spawn Slayer/Paladin/Scaled Fist 15/2/2 or 16/2/1, I can't remember. If I failed 10 saving throws in the whole game, I would be surprised. AC and BaB still respectable, with lots of feats.

I tried making a theoretical build to capitalize on stat bloat once. It was like a Sword Saint/Duelist/Paladin/Scaled Fist. AC was crazy, and so were saves. Attributes bonuses on items are over the top in kingmaker, which can lead to screwy builds if you care to (though thoroughly unnecessary for the dame reason). It also makes the point of some classes, like Dragon Disciple, obsolete.

 

[vazha]

The only reason I ve been posting in this thread is that I ve been enjoying my game immensely (unlike the first run which was a slog and a grindfest) and wanted to share my "findings", good man. Fun is a matter of perspective, I am having it in spades with my little tinkering and seeing the results pay off ))

Re: Harrim, his AC is an unsalvageable mess, especially if you like to spam grease & web everywhere like I do. There is just no saving it with a 4 racial ac. Aura can be a double-edged sword and I havent got time to melee attack with clerics, they are busy raining down holy vengeance upon enemies and animating dead left and right.

Harrim with Giantslayer Clasp is around 40 for Trobold and 46 for VTomb which is enough with Touch of Chaos on the heavy hitters and Okbo a couple AC higher. Why is Aura a double edged sword? Thought you were tanking Hargulka?

Harrim, decked in full plate +2 and heavy shield +2, with shield of faith, defensive stance and barkskin/ amulet of natural armor/ cat's grace has 30 ac. add +4 and then +2 (iirc) from clasp. First, you've got an item hog that doesnt deserve all that hoard, second, with 36 ac he'll get annihilated on unfair anyway. 40 ac is the bare minimum if you want a tank to do what tanks do. He'd get to around 40 if you were to spend feats on that, instead of clearly superior summoning route and drowning enemy in skellingtons, which Tristina can do just as fine, providing excellent healing & buff support (timely blessings & touch of good can be gamechangers) and above average nuking from lvl 5 onwards.

 

[Desiderius]

Dips are bad because of stat bloat. You get plenty of stats just playing the classes as designed while simultaneously taking advantage of scaling and high level class abilities that dips delay or preclude.

 

[Desiderius]

Sorry not interested in theorycrafting. You missed Vestment +2 (at least) and there’s no such thing as an item hog. There’s more than enough to go around and Okbo doesn’t use any at all. Archon’s dominates in Trobold with his high WIS and the low Will of the mobs and of course everything is vulnerable to Shaken as well. Only thing that touches him is occasional Hound or Branded and you can let Okbo handle those if you want with Harrim casting or handling the other mobs.

The difference is that my fights are over in a couple rounds since I don’t gimp toons with Daggers and Dips.

 

[Desiderius]

Summoning Feats are win more, he Summons just fine without them and AC Feats are pretty weak, don’t need those either. Shake it Off + Steel Soul (fourth unique feature) are golden. You can up your Evo or Necro DC or work on his Melee with Feats (unlike most Clerics he’s got True Strike for game-breaking boss CMs). Of course his best spell for Tbold might just be Stunning Barrier.

Tristian comes into his own mid to late (Blessing is good but it’s no Touch of Chaos). I take them both to VTomb but he’s unnecessary for Tbold.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[vazha]

What okbo lol, the doggo pet? he dies in two hits on unfair, buffed or not. "Man uses pet to tank, claims superior expertise" headline right there )) Care to direct us to some showings of your skill, specifically how Okbo "handles trolls" on unfair at lvl 7 Trobold? Because that sounds like, well, pardon my french and all that, but bullshit.

P.s. out of curiosity, how long do you think my fights last, ten minutes? ))

 

[Desiderius]

You’re obviously new here. This thread is overloaded with them.

Just some random stuff I found:

Spoiler

Early Pitax testing a Divine Guardian splash, but you can see he's got AC to burn by this point. Loses his name on respec.

This looks like Abandoned Keep. If Ekun has Inspiring Command probably lvl 14 or so. I learned some new tricks since this playthrough but he's still not embarassing himself.

Speaking of Dragonform... There's a belt if you play CotW to equip it.

On the way to Keep. Most shots seem to be from this part of game. Early ones may be gone.

Has Shield of Faith dispelled and still fine.

Harrim in VTomb. Untouchable by most mobs, especially with Touch of Chaos backup. Chance of getting crit here 1 in 16,000.

Fighting Defensively on the big guy but didn't need it yet.

Mid forties solid against Giants in general. This Harrim had Necro focus so he blew them out with his DC 27 Fear spells as well.

Okbo in that same fight. He's usually 3 to 5 higher than whatever Harrim is at any point.

Inquisitor 13 Jae owning some Hellknights with her casting (Mind Fog is pretty good when you're Immune to Compulsions in your own Kingdom. Hellclowns should have known better to bring that weak shit in here). Good to be able to fall back on offensive casting when you get ambushed and can't buff.

Since everything stacks and scales for pure Inquisitor your normal MO is just to destroy everything straight up.

Holy Sword has been fixed so now she'd only be owning Unfair Armag by 7 instead of 10.

Opening Unfair Cephal fight with Okbo Charge and he gets unlucky. He lived through this fight without ever being touched again.

Getting hit again. Also owning.

Similar.

This looks like just before Trobold. +3 Barkskin means not yet lvl 9. 39 is a little low but doable with Aura and Shaken as seen here.

Last example of Okbo holding his own. Fortitude in high 20s at this point means even if they hit he won't get drained.

With her high DEX and Rogue level Octavia belongs in melee to take full advantage of that sweet R4 package. Charging in to get revenge on her Slavers.

Of course she's not bad at range either

Or if you're patient Trickster does come with a side of cheese.

 

[Delterius]

My elk had a lot of AC with Mage Armor + Cat's Grace, edging Valerie in some levels. Not that I used him to tank, bro's a beast. I remember that with Bull's Strength + Animal Growth the elk, at level 9, would have 40 strength. But that's besides the point. Having one hard to hit character at levels 1-5 is nice. By level 10+ you'll be making every character in the party hard to hit. Even the Amiris of the party should have reach by then. The 'tank', if there is one, is there so someone has a nice baseline AC to conserve resources like Mirror Image, Blur and sources of Concealment. That's it.

 

[NJClaw]

Care to direct us to some showings of your skill