Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Main point being pure casters are notoriously weak early and an aspect of the design easily missed is that no one is making you keep a set party, unlike for instance BG where non-active companions don’t get EXP.

Also Lord Protector is +2 so not awful and the anti-charm clause helps prevent a rare but deadly fail case.

 

[NJClaw]

You only get one boss for each run. You need to start a new game to fight the next one.

As in, from scratch? New main character and whole new party as well? That's gonna be fun.

Yeah, but you get to import your previous save to gain a semi-random boon.

Grease

I love Grease, enemies falling to the ground never gets old and always makes me chuckle. My favorite spot to use it is against the skeletons in Old Sycamore while underleveled. Obviously the usefulness of these AoE spells that can hinder your characters greatly depends on your preferred game mode (and your playstyle): I never use them in RTwP, but I rely on them a lot in TB, since you can perfectly aim them to avoid any negative effect.

 

[Desiderius]

That was exactly the wipe I had in mind lol. OK we can all agree that they suck less on easy mode. Along with everything else.

Glad we could finally come to an agreement. I’ve found that letting those skeletons keep their crappy loot and EXP works just fine.

 

[Xamenos]

Yeah, I got in a no offensive caster rut for awhile then learned to love the (meta-) nuke.

Grease and Web have for real been as often “I lose” buttons (a significant proportion of my wipes involve them, including Tristian getting stuck in a Grease/Web VTomb stack for long enough to cause all my buffs to expire. I’ve had a hard time getting Entangle to do much at all tbh.

I think I prefer zero burn Slick.

YMMV

GOG tells me I've played for 273 hours. All of those have been at RTwP mode, with a minimum difficulty of Challenging. I have literally never wiped or even lost a battle due to my own spells. I won't deny having to delay moving forward until those spells and my buffs expire while raging at Owlcat for not implementing Dismissable spells properly, but that is not the same thing at all.

And ero burn Slick is terrible action economy.

 

[Herumor]

Yeah, but you get to import your previous save to gain a semi-random boon.

Just a few more questions for you and I'll head off to start a new game: how many boss-related items can I get to drop per run? I know in the main campaign it was 4 before the boss, with the boss giving out the 5th item, but right now, in this 50 floor run, I've only gotten one item for the Weary Traveler and one for the Captive. Can I still go on and hope to get more items or is that it for this run? And if I only got these two items in the previous run, without anything specific dropping from the Weary Traveler, have I already missed my chance at Apocalypse Can Wait achievement?

 

[Yosharian]

Discount Lilura lmao

 

[Desiderius]

Not at the DCs Kinnies get.

This is like lvl 6?

It's AoE Trip with the Dismiss built in at zero Burn. Not terrible, no.

As for the general question, I defer to your AoE placement mastery. Biggest problem I have is that the boundaries of the AoE aren't clear even on the ones I use like Glitterdust.

Bottom line is opportunity cost of using Grease/Web/Entangle early is party slot where you could have Jae or Reg or whatever instead.

(Reg is bypassing DR/10 Silver here with +3 Weapon from Arcane Weapon Enhancement). See also Wererats.

And then Slow soon beats them all since enemy only and you can upgrade to Pits and Difficult Terrain (that you can get immunity to) at that point as well.

Then there's people playing caster MC since there's no "pure caster" companion and a lot of new players struggling since the assumption is that Bards suck (as they pretty much did - trying playing BG Bard after P:K) so they take Octavia over Linzi and wonder why the game is so hard.

We're all familiar with dragging along the low level mage knowing that we'll get the payoff later. Only thing I'm saying is that in this game you don't have to do that and I think a lot of people miss that point.

 

[NJClaw]

Yeah, but you get to import your previous save to gain a semi-random boon.

Just a few more questions for you and I'll head off to start a new game: how many boss-related items can I get to drop per run? I know in the main campaign it was 4 before the boss, with the boss giving out the 5th item, but right now, in this 50 floor run, I've only gotten one item for the Weary Traveler and one for the Captive. Can I still go on and hope to get more items or is that it for this run? And if I only got these two items in the previous run, without anything specific dropping from the Weary Traveler, have I already missed my chance at Apocalypse Can Wait achievement?

Boss-related items are random each time, but shared with subsequent runs. With enough runs, you will eventually find all of them even if you miss hidden rooms. The boss of each run is also random, so you will probably fight the same boss multiple times. As soon as you have all the items, you can talk to the dragon to trigger the final boss fight, or you can keep playing forever and experience the worst lag in the entire history of videogames (but maybe they fixed that, I haven't played in a while).

Keep in mind that bosses spawn at fixed levels: 15, 20, 25, and 30. If you reach level 31 without fighting any boss, you might as well start a new run.

 

[Max Damage]

I never switched out Linzi and Octavia for anyone else, no idea why you keep bringing up other games when we're talking about Kingmaker. I don't know a single 3-3.5E game where Bard or any arcanist sucks, Bards are also good in Icewind Dale. Only one making assumptions based on other games is you, they're not even correct ones because you didn't really have the choice of not bringing a wizard along - fighters wouldn't fare well w/o spells to back them up.

 

[Nano]

I’ve found that letting those skeletons keep their crappy loot and EXP works just fine.

That's kinda lame, don't you think?

 

[NJClaw]

I’ve found that letting those skeletons keep their crappy loot and EXP works just fine.

That's kinda lame, don't you think?

There's no place for undeads in my kingdom, especially boney ones.

 

[Nano]

There's no place for undeads in my kingdom, especially boney ones.

Including good looking ones like Jaethal?

 

[Xamenos]

Not at the DCs Kinnies get.

View attachment 17007

This is like lvl 6?

It's AoE Trip with the Dismiss built in at zero Burn. Not terrible, no.

As for the general question, I defer to your AoE placement mastery. Biggest problem I have is that the boundaries of the AoE aren't clear even on the ones I use like Glitterdust.

Bottom line is opportunity cost of using Grease/Web/Entangle early is party slot where you could have Jae or Reg or whatever instead.

View attachment 17008

View attachment 17009

(Reg is bypassing DR/10 Silver here with +3 Weapon from Arcane Weapon Enhancement). See also Wererats.

And then Slow soon beats them all since enemy only and you can upgrade to Pits and Difficult Terrain (that you can get immunity to) at that point as well.

Then there's people playing caster MC since there's no "pure caster" companion and a lot of new players struggling since the assumption is that Bards suck (as they pretty much did - trying playing BG Bard after P:K) so they take Octavia over Linzi and wonder why the game is so hard.

We're all familiar with dragging along the low level mage knowing that we'll get the payoff later. Only thing I'm saying is that in this game you don't have to do that and I think a lot of people miss that point.

Slick's DC is the exact same as what a Wizard would have at the same level with the same main stat using his highest spell slot. And that's without counting Focus. Though I do wonder how you got it to 21, I seem to be missing a modifier somewhere. I didn't say it's terrible, only that it's terrible action economy to have your Kineticist spamming it when you could have him do something more useful with his actions. Slick is burn is far better action economy, in comparison.

I don't understand how you can have problems with your Aoe's boundaries. The game shows a nice outline of what the area will be, highlights the bases of those affected before you cast it, allows you precision placement with CTRL and even allows changing the target at any time before the cast is finished. This is not Baldur's Gate where you have to eyeball that fireball.

Of course Slow is better, disregarding the fact it targets a different save. You're comparing a 3rd level spell to a 1st or 2nd. I could equally say Mass Icy Prison is better than Slow, again disregarding the different saves, but that wouldn't be a fair comparison either, would it?

And naturally, there's an opportunity cost with bringing a Wizard along, I didn't say it's the bestest thing ever and anyone not doing it is a retard. But not having a Wizard in your party is equally an opportunity cost of having that whatever else. You don't have to drag along the mage. But even a low level mage legitimately brings things to the table that you are dismissing unfairly.

 

[NJClaw]

There's no place for undeads in my kingdom, especially boney ones.

Including good looking ones like Jaethal?

Good looking? She ugly as hell, bro. I don't want no weird Michael Jackson look-alike in my party.

This is not Baldur's Gate where you have to eyeball that fireball.

Not anymore. Embrace the enhanced edition, enjoy your AoE markers.

 

[Desiderius]

Slick's DC is the exact same as what a Wizard would have at the same level with the same main stat using his highest spell slot.

PsychoKin Slick

5 WIS
2 Owl's Wisdom
3 lvl/2
1 Psycho Overflow

21

Wiz Grease

5 INT
2 Fox's Cunning
1 Spell lvl

18 or 20 with Heighten

But why are you using your highest spell slot on Grease and Web? That's the whole point. You're burning a metamagic feat for no benefit to cast a weaker spell.

Slick gives you the DC upgrade for free (does Sorc even have to use full round for Heightened Spells or something?) and of course the other very important thing is infinite casts while low level casters are notorious for shooting their tiny wads way too fast.

Just use higher level spells. They're higher level for a reason. Low level casters are relatively weak, you have other options. You can of course also fill up your spell books with Metamagicked lower level spells but Grease/Web gain no benefit from it unlike say Touch Spells with Reach and Empower or something.

That is all.

 

[Desiderius]

As far as the AoE the problem I get into is when it's sitting around on the ground. There you can't see it to avoid it. Of course with RTwP you've also got movement after targeting to worry about, but that's a mare manageable thing at least when it comes to your team if you're careful.

Hence my preference for non-persistent effects.

 

[santino27]

i'm guessing your thrones weren't turned into elks, smh

Spoiler

Considering fae involvement, it's not even that out-of-place for a bug.

 

[Desiderius]

I’ve found that letting those skeletons keep their crappy loot and EXP works just fine.

That's kinda lame, don't you think?

Great question.

My sense is that part of the design is about encounter management, which involves tackling encounters at the right level (Ratnook Hill) and avoiding encounters without meaningful rewards. First time through the game is different, but my first time through the game is where I wiped myself by Greasing that choke lol.

I used Grease and Web a lot when I sucked. I got better and stopped.

 

[Nano]

Great question.

My sense is that part of the design is about encounter management, which involves tackling encounters at the right level (Ratnook Hill) and avoiding encounters without meaningful rewards. First time through the game is different, but my first time through the game is where I wiped myself by Greasing that choke lol.

I used Grease and Web a lot when I sucked. I got better and stopped.

Hey, if gimping yourself like this is your idea of fun then knock yourself out.

 

[Desiderius]

Hey, if gimping yourself like this is your idea of fun then knock yourself out.

So you're saying that you find begging the question persuasive?

Bitchy unwarranted contempt noted. You don't have to live like this.

 

[Xamenos]

Slick's DC is the exact same as what a Wizard would have at the same level with the same main stat using his highest spell slot.

PsychoKin Slick

5 WIS
2 Owl's Wisdom
3 lvl/2
1 Psycho Overflow

21

Wiz Grease

5 INT
2 Fox's Cunning
1 Spell lvl

18 or 20 with Heighten

But why are you using your highest spell slot on Grease and Web? That's the whole point. You're burning a metamagic feat for no benefit to cast a weaker spell.

Slick gives you the DC upgrade for free (does Sorc even have to use full round for Heightened Spells or something?) and of course the other very important thing is infinite casts while low level casters are notorious for shooting their tiny wads way too fast.

Just use higher level spells. They're higher level for a reason. Low level casters are relatively weak, you have other options. You can of course also fill up your spell books with Metamagicked lower level spells but Grease/Web gain no benefit from it unlike say Touch Spells with Reach and Empower or something.

That is all.

Ah, I missed that you weren't a base kineticist. And you've missed Spell Focus, a must for a Conjurer, which brings the DC at 20 or 22 with heighten. The benefit of Heighten is that is is the only Metamagic that increases DCs. Heightened Stinking Cloud is the most degenerate spell in the game, and the only one I refuse to use on principle. I am not advocating for Heightened Grease though. There really isn't any reason to use Grease when you have access to Pit. At L6, you should be comparing Slick to Spiked Pit, not Grease. A Wizard should be relying only on his highest level slots for offensive spells with a save.

But, since I'm playing a Wizard at levels lower than 5, there are levels where Grease and Web are my highest level spells. At those levels, either of them is easily superior to Slick. A Wizard may be dead weight at trash fights, but who cares? They're trash fights. What you should care about is that they make the hard fights easier, and they are at least as good or better at doing that than any alternative.

 

[Nano]

So you're saying that you find begging the question persuasive?

Bitchy unwarranted contempt noted. You don't have to live like this.

I don't know what that first sentence means, but I didn't mean to sound bitchy.

Your previous post could definitely be interpreted as bitchy though, what with how you implied that people who use those spells suck.

 

[Delterius]

The last time I used Grease was in Vordakai's dungeon when I was running low on spells and wanted to make sure the biggest cyclopes couldn't get a hit on my Pet. I think that was because at that point you get your Vinetraps and Chains of Light, which also target reflex but are just better and precise.

 

[Desiderius]

Killer app vs Giant Zombs = Tanglefoot Bombs

As for sucking, a lot of people who rely on Grease/Web do, others use them out of habit, others out of ignorance of the alternatives (which we all have to some extent given the number there are), others because they enjoy that playstyle. Some are even good enough to overcome gimping themselves so badly.

If I were as good as Xam I might even choose to use them too.

As for taking along a spiky toon that doesn’t do much otherwise early, I really don’t think the spikes are that high or necessary and it’s more done out of habit than anything.

Once I dropped it things went smoother. Trash fights aren’t really a thing on high difficulties and you’re better off with a consistent play pattern where everyone consistently contributes.

Let Jub buff Okbo until you finish off the Magical Beasts he Prefers then replace Jub with Octavia just when she’s ready to go off.

 

[Desiderius]

The main issue at low levels is limited number of casts. Slick is InEffect a cantrip.