Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Since when did I say anything about Pathfinder?

You didn't have to. All you ignorant fucktards have crowded the market with TB to such an extent that Pathfinder is about the only RTwP left.

 

[Mangoose]

What I said was *this type of gameplay* benefits more from *mechanics A* than *mechanics B*. It's simple design decision.

Yes. And you're wrong. When you describe typical RTwP gameplay you're describing RT without Pause gameplay.

No, I described exactly what you described. In fact, the only thing I criticized was the smogashborg that POE looks like. As for Pathfinder, I have not played 3E in RTWP, the mechanics are different, and I have yet to conclude anything about the game, as I do not even have the game yet.

You're the one reading into what I'm saying too extremely because you need something to argue against and thus affirm your self-esteem.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol. My self-esteem is alive and well at this late date. Too well.

I’m just the one who has to hop on the theorycel grenade so we can get some more good games in practice.

 

[The_Mask]

Lol. My self-esteem is alive and well at this late date. Too well.

Yeah, actually a bit on the toxic side too. I mean you started swearing at a person that doesn't even have the game, intersplicing screenshoots too.

It's actually a phenomenon that I've noticed in the Owlcat Twitch streams as well. The edgy know-it-all no-fun-allowed attitude.

Can we have a new approach? Maybe just let people bash their heads in, until they crack and leave crying, or break through *** AND *** let them have their fun their own way?

 

[LannTheStupid]

The best RTwP game minimizes the pause

Well, you're a (relatively) free person in a (probably) more or less free country. Thus, you can have almost any opinion you want (though you shall not share the "All Lives Matter" opinion).

However, your understanding of good RTwP combat is an absolute opposite of mine. As the result, I neither can nor want to follow the rest of your logic.

Sorry.

The edgy know-it-all no-fun-allowed attitude.

That's why Owlcat streams are so great. The only thing I really can't stand is their accents. It would have been much much better if they were speaking Russian with subtitles or something.

Can we have a new approach?

No.

You have enough polite degenerates both on twitch and in the most of English speaking societies. Get real or get out.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol. My self-esteem is alive and well at this late date. Too well.

Yeah, actually a bit on the toxic side too. I mean you started swearing at a person that doesn't even have the game, intersplicing screenshoots too.

It's actually a phenomenon that I've noticed in the Owlcat Twitch streams as well. The edgy know-it-all no-fun-allowed attitude.

Can we have a new approach? Maybe just let people bash their heads in, until they crack and leave crying, or break through *** AND *** let them have their fun their own way?

You're both right.

It's intended to be read as part drill sergeant, part tongue in cheek (and of course the best drill sergeants are themselves part tongue in cheek) but whenever I saw Pink Eye trying to imitate it it came across as just cringe. Which doesn't mean my version is and some kind of butt kicking for goodness here is desperately needed but I'd be kidding myself if I thought that I've put in the practice necessary to be effective in that role. I'll just call a spade a spade and leave the dominance games to the young bucks.

It doesn't matter that he doesn't have the game, that's even more reason to point out that P:K is a counterexample to his theory. As is every other RTwP game I've ever played for that matter.

The purpose of screenshots is to drag all the theorycels heads out of the clouds back to reality where their ample intellectual resources have some hope of actually producing something useful.

As for fun, they're not having fun since they're doing it wrong with the result of trying (very successfully!) to eliminate the RTwP genre altogether. It's imperative that someone break through to them so they can stop making themselves miserable trying to play tennis with fine violins and bashing them into the ground in misplaced frustration.

 

[The_Mask]

As for fun, they're not having fun since they're doing it wrong with the result of trying (very successfully!) to eliminate the RTwP genre altogether. It's imperative that someone break through to them so they can stop making themselves miserable trying to play tennis with fine violins and bashing them into the ground in misplaced frustration.

I don't disagree with anything else you've said, nor with any of the other arguments, but this one seems shaky. I remember RTwP coming into play because "computers can keep up with us now, lol, no need to be turn-based anymore". ~20 years later: "lol, computers are pretty fucking fast now, we can't keep up with them, let's slow things down to turn-based".
Is it survival of the fittest, or just a preference?

Trick question. It doesn't matter as long as you have fun. Both the options panel and the light switch for TB mode are optional, not mandatory.

In theory, you should be able to beat the game never having to pause the game.

Spoiler

And you can.

 

[The_Mask]

The edgy know-it-all no-fun-allowed attitude.

That's why Owlcat streams are so great. The only thing I really can't stand is their accents. It would have been much much better if they were speaking Russian with subtitles or something.

Can we have a new approach?

No.

You have enough polite degenerates both on twitch and in the most of English speaking societies. Get real or get out.

Didn't see this, for some reason.



First off, Owlcat streams are exactly that: Owlcat streams. I'm assuming any extra edge, and whatever extreme behaviour you may wanna add can result in a ban. Which I don't want. That's 1.
And 2. neither the community manager, nor the very charismatic item dev are into what we're into, so I (and the rest of the people there) keep things light.

God bless her, the community manager was actually stressed last time she was streaming because she had like 10 chars to level and she was thinking she was taking too long. So I actually had to come out and say, that that is normal and she should relax.




And for that other part, hahaha... I am a firm believer in the Bruce Lee way of thinking: just adapt to your interlocutor. Be like water. First contact is Asimovian though. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." But you do you.

 

[Desiderius]

Asimov's autism was so profound that a robot was his only believable character. Violence is that which must be mastered before anything else. More than conquerors, not less.

 

[Desiderius]

As for fun, they're not having fun since they're doing it wrong with the result of trying (very successfully!) to eliminate the RTwP genre altogether. It's imperative that someone break through to them so they can stop making themselves miserable trying to play tennis with fine violins and bashing them into the ground in misplaced frustration.

I don't disagree with anything else you've said, nor with any of the other arguments, but this one seems shaky. I remember RTwP coming into play because "computers can keep up with us now, lol, no need to be turn-based anymore". ~20 years later: "lol, computers are pretty fucking fast now, we can't keep up with them, let's slow things down to turn-based".
Is it survival of the fittest, or just a preference?

Trick question. It doesn't matter as long as you have fun. Both the options panel and the light switch for TB mode are optional, not mandatory.

In theory, you should be able to beat the game never having to pause the game.

Spoiler

And you can.

You're missing the entirety of my point. Anyone who talks about reaction time or twitch skills or keeping up is talking about RT without Pause, not with Pause. They're not having fun because they're doing it wrong and in our folk libertariamism we're all afraid to tell them with the result that they're well on their way to eliminating RTwP as an option at all.

I like both (except for D:OS version of TB where enemy never gets to act) and want to preserve both so all kinds of people can have fun.

 

[Mangoose]

Lol. My self-esteem is alive and well at this late date. Too well.

Yeah, actually a bit on the toxic side too. I mean you started swearing at a person that doesn't even have the game, intersplicing screenshoots too.

It's actually a phenomenon that I've noticed in the Owlcat Twitch streams as well. The edgy know-it-all no-fun-allowed attitude.

Can we have a new approach? Maybe just let people bash their heads in, until they crack and leave crying, or break through *** AND *** let them have their fun their own way?

I've been grognarding here for over a decade. How can I crack (even more)?

Lo and behold, yet another semantic argument. "No, your definition of RTWP is wrong."

Meanwhile I'm just thinking about how to design RTWP well. Just like.. any other type of game. Because I'm playing around with BG2.

I've never mentioned an opinion on Pathfinder, and I've never mentioned an opinion on RTWP. I was just thinking out loud about game design. Yet notice how eager you are ready to win an argument.

And.. no you guys are no edgier than the typical 1st/2nd-yearers. It's a phase, don't worry.

 

[Desiderius]

I could care less about "winning" some imaginary argument.

You made an empirical statement.

But the stuff that makes a lot of PnP classes/kits unique use micro-stuff like disarms, charges, parries, and the feats focus on those.... None of which are easy to manage or even visually notice playing real-time. Well, on that note, if things are hard to notice, that means you're have a hard time getting feedback, making it hard for you to make decisions... Micromanagement in real time is like playing speed chess lol.

I provided a counterexample to prevent you from constructing your house of cards on a shaky foundation. But you're so lost in your clouds of abstraction you have no foundation at all so I guess I shouldn't have bothered.

Speed chess is of interest in its own right, but RTwP played as designed is nothing like speed chess at all. The consistent theme is that we owe it to devs and to ourselves to play games as designed, not as our preconceived notions would have us do.

 

[The_Mask]

I've been grognarding here for over a decade. How can I crack (even more)?
[...]
And.. no you guys are no edgier than the typical 1st/2nd-yearers. It's a phase, don't worry.

So, cool story, you just proved to be the edgiest person in the room. Also... you're the only one in the room looking at joined dates. I've been playing RPGs as far as I can remember having a machine, so that's about a quarter of century, so... erm... what?

The only pertinent point about your post is the beautiful "sandwich" you made trying to tackle both me and Desiderius, which does say something about experience. Other than that, your nick should be "superfluous".

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I've often thought RTWP or maybe RTwoP need to focus on macro-management in terms of designing combat options/tactics. Stances work great for this - makes the Blade stand out as a class. But the stuff that makes a lot of PnP classes/kits unique use micro-stuff like disarms, charges, parries, and the feats focus on those.... None of which are easy to manage or even visually notice playing real-time. Well, on that note, if things are hard to notice, that means you're have a hard time getting feedback, making it hard for you to make decisions... Micromanagement in real time is like playing speed chess lol.

Mangoose Desi whole point is that when you are complaining about micro/information feedaback in RtwP, it is kinda moot because the whole you can actually pause and queue command to all character, and even since BG, the RtwP game, you have autopause option to make micro essentially non-existent. If you are complaining about Micro-management, it means you are not using the pause feature of RtwP enough. It is not comparable to, say Dota, where you can't pause to issue command. Imagine playing Meepo or Chen but you can pause anytime you want and issue commands and the whole other 9 players need to wait for you.

About Combat Maneuver (grab, disarm, etc) not being noticeable in RtwP is a matter of visual feedback (this I can agree with). If you say that with the same visual feedback it is more noticeable in TB because of Turn Based and you can check enemy whenever you want...., then it comes back to the whole argument that you are not pausing enough. The Pause in RtwP is there to be used. The whole Pause thing is there for players to absorb the significant amount of moving information. This is even easier in modern RtwP games which have Combat Log (like in Pillars or Kingmaker).

And arguably the most successful RTS of all time (basically BLizzard's RTS) are among the most micro-intensive ones in the market. What they do well tho is visual feedback. Even with pause I do think that this is something that all games can learn from.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, as someone who grew up on MUDs and Zork unlike Johnny Come Lately Mangoose here the Combat Log is enough visual feedback for me.

YMMV

 

[The_Mask]

Also, just saying, this is the first time DotA has been brought up, and I don't feel like the conversation dropped IQ points. Next thing you know people are going to mention Visage too.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I have an opinion about Pathfinder but I'm afraid the Autism God Desiderius might not agree with me? What shall I do? Where shall I post?

 

[Mangoose]

I've often thought RTWP or maybe RTwoP need to focus on macro-management in terms of designing combat options/tactics. Stances work great for this - makes the Blade stand out as a class. But the stuff that makes a lot of PnP classes/kits unique use micro-stuff like disarms, charges, parries, and the feats focus on those.... None of which are easy to manage or even visually notice playing real-time. Well, on that note, if things are hard to notice, that means you're have a hard time getting feedback, making it hard for you to make decisions... Micromanagement in real time is like playing speed chess lol.

Mangoose Desi whole point is that when you are complaining about micro in RtwP, it is kinda moot because the whole you can actually pause and queue command to all character, and even since BG, the RtwP game, you have autopause option to make micro essentially non-existent. If you are complaining about Micro-management, it means you are not using the pause feature of RtwP enough. It is not comparable to, say Dota, where you can't pause to issue command. Imagine playing Meepo or Chen but you can pause anytime you want and issue commands and the whole other 9 players need to wait for you.

Do you realize I am modding BG while playing a BG1-TOB run right after I just ran one?

Who the hell is complaining about anything? I was, in fact, imagining the hypothetical schmorgasborg of 2E called shots, special maneuvers, etc. in Infinity Engine. Some custom kits have those 1 round/1 action abilities but they didn't feel very significant in gameplay.

I provided a counterexample to prevent you from constructing your house of cards on a shaky foundation. But you're so lost in your clouds of abstraction you have no foundation at all so I guess I shouldn't have bothered.

No shit. I was making off the cuff observations of what I was doing at the moment. Musing about good and bad RTWP design.

Yes. I had some thoughts about HOW to do RTWP. Not RTWP is bad.

 

[Mangoose]

I have an opinion about Pathfinder but I'm afraid the Autism God Desiderius might not agree with me? What shall I do? Where shall I post?

Even better when you don't have an opinion.

Also, it's funny to get brofisted a whole page and then facepalmed the next. Dumbass: I was the one grateful for the response on whether there was excess combat. I'm not quite sure why you're posting examples of Pathfinder when.. I'm in the middle of downloading it so I can play it myself in a few.

Okay I had one opinion: POE looked like badly designed RTWP. No. That does not mean RTWP is bad.

 

[Mangoose]

Yes, as someone who grew up on MUDs and Zork unlike Johnny Come Lately Mangoose here the Combat Log is enough visual feedback for me.

YMMV

Now that's just a falsity because I did grow up on MUDs and Zork. I think I can name one of the MUDs.

 

[Desiderius]

I have an opinion about Pathfinder but I'm afraid the Autism God Desiderius might not agree with me? What shall I do? Where shall I post?

You’re afraid of people disagreeing with you?

Then you’ve got bigger problems than little old me, hoss. Gird up your loins like a man. Your comment reads like you’re trolling yourself.

This is why it’s hard to avoid the dominance games since they all run to those for refuge instead of updating their priors and so stay stupid when the rest of us need them to get smarter.

 

[Mangoose]

I have an opinion about Pathfinder but I'm afraid the Autism God Desiderius might not agree with me? What shall I do? Where shall I post?

You’re afraid of people disagreeing with you?

Then you’ve got bigger problems than little old me, hoss. Gird up your loins like a man. Your comment reads like your trolling yourself.

OH that's what you mean by autism.

 

[Mangoose]

Yes, as someone who grew up on MUDs and Zork unlike Johnny Come Lately Mangoose here the Combat Log is enough visual feedback for me.

YMMV

Now that's just a falsity because I did grow up on MUDs and Zork. I think I can name one of the MUDs.

Is this that fuzzy lawgic the kids were all on about back in the day? Pretty sure you playing MUDs doesn’t preclude me playing MUDs. Still pretty sure you weren’t stealing quarters from your grandma to pump in Pong coin-ops there hotshot.

I didn't say you didn't. You said you did. You said I didn't. I said I did. We both did. So I didn't not do it.

 

[Desiderius]

You’re not fooling anyone Mangoose. All you have to do is admit you were wrong about your original point which is only saying you’re smarter now than you started the day but instead you’d rather play these silly games.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, as someone who grew up on MUDs and Zork unlike Johnny Come Lately Mangoose here the Combat Log is enough visual feedback for me.

YMMV

Now that's just a falsity because I did grow up on MUDs and Zork. I think I can name one of the MUDs.

Is this that fuzzy lawgic the kids were all on about back in the day? Pretty sure you playing MUDs doesn’t preclude me playing MUDs. Still pretty sure you weren’t stealing quarters from your grandma to pump in Pong coin-ops there hotshot.

I didn't say you didn't. You said you did. You said I didn't. I said I did. We both did. So I didn't not do it.

No you tried to pull rank and I called your bluff.