Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Chippy]

Last time I checked, this was still the 'Enhanced Edition' yet now it's got a plus on it. Quick search gave me an answer on Steam that it has added gamepad support, TB, broke mods, and introduced new bugs.



THis was an answer from back in Sept. Is it still true?.

 

[Mangoose]

Okay, I really want to play this because lately I've been searching out PnP classes/kits to mod into Baldur's Gate (for my own play). So I cam across d20pfsrd. I'm aware of D&D's srd.dndtools.org, and I'm very familiar with 3E/3.5E but never knew much about Pathfinder besides it being a branched improvement of 3.5E.

Then I saw the "Base Classes." Okay, I have to admit, I've been looking for a Gish to use as a template. 1d4chan pointed me towards 2e Bladesinger (HAHAHA JUST KIDDING).. D&D's Duskblade.. and PF's Magus.

AND THE MAGUS IS SO COOL. Duskblade pretty good too - but the mechanics are similar enough that the Magus feels like the Duskblade being able to Quickcast at-will (instead of X/day) via Spell Combat.

My only concern - yes, maybe only - is reading about there being too many filler combat encounters. I played enough JRPGs to hate excess combat. Hell, I fall asleep during WoW raids when we have to deal with trash mobs between bosses.

ANYWAYS... From 1 to 10 (where 1 means shitty and 10 means less shitty), how shitty is the excess combat?

 

[Seari]

If you don't enjoy combat, don't play this game.

 

[Yosharian]

The 'filler' combat as you call it represents a significant amount of the game's combat, that's why my builds are mostly physical damage dealers that can cut through those encounters quickly and easily without expending spells.

Then I have the Bard and Sorcerer to destroy boss fights and other key encounters.

 

[Yosharian]

Last time I checked, this was still the 'Enhanced Edition' yet now it's got a plus on it. Quick search gave me an answer on Steam that it has added gamepad support, TB, broke mods, and introduced new bugs.



THis was an answer from back in Sept. Is it still true?.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking but the last update did break a lot of mods. Most of them have been updated in some form or another. All the mods I list on my steam page are updated for the current version.

I personally haven't noticed any bugs in the current version.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Okay, I really want to play this because lately I've been searching out PnP classes/kits to mod into Baldur's Gate (for my own play). So I cam across d20pfsrd. I'm aware of D&D's srd.dndtools.org, and I'm very familiar with 3E/3.5E but never knew much about Pathfinder besides it being a branched improvement of 3.5E.

Then I saw the "Base Classes." Okay, I have to admit, I've been looking for a Gish to use as a template. 1d4chan pointed me towards 2e Bladesinger (HAHAHA JUST KIDDING).. D&D's Duskblade.. and PF's Magus.

AND THE MAGUS IS SO COOL. Duskblade pretty good too - but the mechanics are similar enough that the Magus feels like the Duskblade being able to Quickcast at-will (instead of X/day) via Spell Combat.

My only concern - yes, maybe only - is reading about there being too many filler combat encounters. I played enough JRPGs to hate excess combat. Hell, I fall asleep during WoW raids when we have to deal with trash mobs between bosses.

ANYWAYS... From 1 to 10 (where 1 means shitty and 10 means less shitty), how shitty is the excess combat?

If you are willing to play the game on RtwP then it's honestly a breeze, most encounters last like 10 - 15 seconds. Heck arguably after the first chapter if you know what you are doing most boss or optional hard fight should be at least 2 - 5 minutes top, even on Hard.

If you are hardcore ONLY TB OR BUST you can multiply those times by I dunno, 10 - 15 times. So each trash mob would probably require 2 - 3 minutes.

And yes, there is a lot of combat. The game is notoriously long, if you are a completionist it would probably take 100+ hours on RtwP and much of that time will be spent on Combat.

By your estimation I dunno, on RtwP it feels like 7? 8? It is fast enough not to make you feels annoyed.

On TB I would say 4 or 5.

 

[Mangoose]

Okay, I really want to play this because lately I've been searching out PnP classes/kits to mod into Baldur's Gate (for my own play). So I cam across d20pfsrd. I'm aware of D&D's srd.dndtools.org, and I'm very familiar with 3E/3.5E but never knew much about Pathfinder besides it being a branched improvement of 3.5E.

Then I saw the "Base Classes." Okay, I have to admit, I've been looking for a Gish to use as a template. 1d4chan pointed me towards 2e Bladesinger (HAHAHA JUST KIDDING).. D&D's Duskblade.. and PF's Magus.

AND THE MAGUS IS SO COOL. Duskblade pretty good too - but the mechanics are similar enough that the Magus feels like the Duskblade being able to Quickcast at-will (instead of X/day) via Spell Combat.

My only concern - yes, maybe only - is reading about there being too many filler combat encounters. I played enough JRPGs to hate excess combat. Hell, I fall asleep during WoW raids when we have to deal with trash mobs between bosses.

ANYWAYS... From 1 to 10 (where 1 means shitty and 10 means less shitty), how shitty is the excess combat?

If you are willing to play the game on RtwP then it's honestly a breeze, most encounters last like 10 - 15 seconds. Heck arguably after the first chapter if you know what you are doing most boss or optional hard fight should be at least 2 - 5 minutes top, even on Hard.

If you are hardcore ONLY TB OR BUST you can multiply those times by I dunno, 10 - 15 times. So each trash mob would probably require 2 - 3 minutes.

And yes, there is a lot of combat. The game is notoriously long, if you are a completionist it would probably take 100+ hours on RtwP and much of that time will be spent on Combat.

By your estimation I dunno, on RtwP it feels like 7? 8? It is fast enough not to make you feels annoyed.

On TB I would say 4 or 5.

LOL. I forgot it's RTwP. I wonder if the TB mod has an option to enable/disable. I could just mindlessly let the AI do RTWP while I alt tab lol.

 

[Lawntoilet]

LOL. I forgot it's RTwP. I wonder if the TB mod has an option to enable/disable. I could just mindlessly let the AI do RTWP while I alt tab lol.

You can switch between TB and RTwP any time, it's just a button.

 

[Mangoose]

Thanks guys.

 

[Desiderius]

The game is not for the mindless.

There are no trash fights if you’re playing on the appropriate difficulty. Time is the game’s most valuable resource which makes rest a cost, so you’re always balancing per rest abilities vs risk posed by each fight.

People who come in trying to play it like an MMO often get into a rut where they’re resting/traveling a lot and end up gimping their Kingdom Management and since most of the good items are gated behind KM end up struggling then talking about endless (read too long/hard) trash fights.

If you find a good groove everything goes fast.

 

[Mangoose]

The game is not for the mindless.

There are no trash fights if you’re playing on the appropriate difficulty. Time is the game’s most valuable resource which makes rest a cost, so you’re always balancing per rest abilities vs risk posed by each fight.

Oh that's fine for me. I dislike mindless combat and it makes me sleepy.

 

[Mangoose]

Anyways, while I've been trying to design/adapt PnP kits to Baldur's Gate/Infinity Engine kits and I realized that a lot of the interesting options aren't feasible in RTWP. Easier to do turn by turn but not on the fly.

I've often thought RTWP or maybe RTwoP need to focus on macro-management in terms of designing combat options/tactics. Stances work great for this - makes the Blade stand out as a class. But the stuff that makes a lot of PnP classes/kits unique use micro-stuff like disarms, charges, parries, and the feats focus on those.... None of which are easy to manage or even visually notice playing real-time. Well, on that note, if things are hard to notice, that means you're have a hard time getting feedback, making it hard for you to make decisions... Micromanagement in real time is like playing speed chess lol.

Besides stances, um, positioning is something that doesn't mandate micromanagement. If you design it well, that is. Um.. You can take into account elevation, cover, etc. because he micro is done when maneuvering into position. Overwatch.

I was looking at the skills and abilities for PoE and there are so many of them. Which is exactly what not to do. You can't throw in MMO-like combat because in MMOs you're managing the many abilities of one character. Same for DOTA (except for Meepo). Taking a multiplayer game's combat structure and then putting it in a single player game where you control multiple players... Imagine if you had to play 6 characters in an FPS - you'd need 12 arms.

 

[Desiderius]

I did a whole playthrough abusing CMs using RTwP.

Why does every critic of RTwP seem to be utterly unaware of the Pause feature?

Here’s an idea brain geniuses: play the fucking game before expounding upon all your great ideas and theories.

 

[Mangoose]

I did a whole playthrough abusing CMs using RTwP.

Why does every critic of RTwP seem to be utterly unaware of the Pause feature?

Here’s an idea brain geniuses: play the fucking game before expounding upon all your great ideas and theories.

I wasn't talking about Pathfinder.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I wasn't talking about Pathfinder.

I hope you do realize - Kingmaker or not - that the "pause" in RTwP throws off all the real time specifics like "micro", "macro" and so on. The game can be as slow as you want - it's just everything is simultaneous in the opposite to turn based.

May be you know all that, but your posts have never shown your knowledge.

 

[Mangoose]

I wasn't talking about Pathfinder.

I hope you do realize - Kingmaker or not - that the "pause" in RTwP throws off all the real time specifics like "micro", "macro" and so on. The game can be as slow as you want - it's just everything is simultaneous in the opposite to turn based.

May be you know all that, but your posts have never shown your knowledge.

No. Actually that's exactly not the case. Because the main micromanagement ability in the Infinity Engine games is the pause button. You have to be wary and watch and figure out when to pause. Each and every time it's a decision I have to think about, since there are spells and abilities. I'm playing BG right now and modding it.. Yes.. The key I press the most is the space button. Your main skill is knowing when to press the pause button and making sure you are paying attention so you can press the pause button at the right time.

You can easily pull from the Total War games, and not even need Pause.

Edit: Yes, I know there are autopause options. Thing is. I don't always need them. In fact, I never use them unless I am in a fight where I want to make sure I immediately do something after I cast. Note that in this example I am not the one pausing the game. The space bar was not touched. It was not a manual pause. It was automatic, set up before hand (<- macro).

I'm not arguing technicalities per say but imagining how the gameplay presents to the player. What I feel with RTWP is clunk. The clunk being the sound of my space bar.

Edit 2: This is actually my second run through BG->ToB after I just did one a few months ago. It's the spell combat that saves BG. And, if you're smart, you'll turn on autopause for spell casts. Because you want to win by smarts, not by knowing by your skills in pausing.

Edit 3: Micro- and Macro- refer to the number of decisions needed. It's not about taking a longer time. It's about making tactical decisions with pause being done minimally if at all.

 

[Desiderius]

There is also an advance time frame by frame button. You're literally trying to impose RT without pause onto RTwP then complain about the things you don't like about your fucked up version of RTwP.

 

[Mangoose]

Lol. I've been playing RTWP since (see join date). Please. I did not say RTWP is bad. I did not say micro is bad. I didn't say macro is good. I said that macro is more complementary to RTWP combat than micromanagement.

 

[Mangoose]

There is also an advance time frame by frame button.

Yes and that's ANNOYING. It's useful but ANNOYING. If I wanted to powerplay, I'd turn on all the autopause. But that would be worst gaming experience ever.

That's why you toggle on pause on cast spell when you are in a tough battle. Of course, you gotta notice you're in a tough battle, go into the menu, do that.

You're literally trying to impose RT without pause onto RTwP then complain about the things you don't like about your fucked up version of RTwP.

No. In fact. The best RTwP game minimizes the pause instead of making pausing a mechanic that takes *conscious* thought.

 

[Mangoose]

Hardcore real-time squad stealth missions without pause (a la the Commando games). And this could very have failed if the wrong design decisions were made.

Edit: Ew that's like earlygame with no squad .H/o. Okay, better example put up. I hope. Oh fuck it. It's Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun.

Seriously why is everybody soloing that shit. C'mon

 

[Mangoose]

Anyways. I'm thinking out loud because I am working on designing and modding in some kits for BG2 because I'm obsessive.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol. I've been playing RTWP since (see join date). Please. I did not say RTWP is bad. I did not say micro is bad. I didn't say macro is good. I said that macro is more complementary to RTWP combat than micromanagement.

No. That's RT without Pause. If you like that play that. Stop imposing your stupid version on RTwP then talking about what tactics it doesn't work well with when it demonstrably does. I have no idea what you're talking about with pause timing or clunkiness because I so rarely actually press the pause button. Everything important is on autopause and then on the rare occasions I need to get more finegrained I advance time. I'm playing TB with simultaneous movement. I give each toon orders whenver they finish whatever they were doing previously. P:K doesn't really even have scripting.

 

[Desiderius]

Anyways. I'm thinking out loud because I am working on designing and modding in some kits for BG2 because I'm obsessive.

Think better.

 

[Mangoose]

I have no idea what you're talking about with pause timing or clunkiness because I so rarely actually press the pause button. Everything important is on autopause and then on the rare occasions I need to get more finegrained I advance time. I'm playing TB with simultaneous movement. I give each toon orders whenver they finish whatever they were doing previously. P:K doesn't really even have scripting.

Since when did I say anything about Pathfinder? I don't know whether Pathfinder is "clunky." It sounds to me that it's designed well, in a manner that complements RTWP, as you say that manual pausing is rare.

All of that is what I mean by macro. That's the type of pace needed for good RTWP gameplay.

Again, do you notice how I never said anything was good or bad? What I said was *this type of gameplay* benefits more from *mechanics A* than *mechanics B*. It's simple design decision.

 

[Desiderius]

What I said was *this type of gameplay* benefits more from *mechanics A* than *mechanics B*. It's simple design decision.

Yes. And you're wrong. When you describe typical RTwP gameplay you're describing RT without Pause gameplay.