Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Mangoose]

I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.

Neither of those things is necessary though, even on Unfair.

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.

That's not necessary either. You should either accept the higher difficulties aren't for you, or try to git gud.

Sure, it isn't necessary, but then, nothing in the game 100% is. It isn't necessary to use magic in the game at all. It isn't necessary to wear armor. It isn't necessary to use any consumable items.
If anything this tactic is strategically superior - it doesn't use any resources, keeps your party healthy, and doesn't use up the time resting does.
Ultimately the only reason I did it is because of the game's timelimit. I wasn't sure if there was always some background time limit that I wasn't aware of, or I worried that if I wasted too much time resting I would put myself in too much of a hole with Kingdom Management and have to restart.
And hey, I caught up on some TV while I was doing it, so it was actually pretty fun.

I was laughing about your line at the end but actually that's very true, at least with Vancian magic. Resource management. That's actually my weakness. I just fought three random encounters with swarms of goblins. I was like.. fuck this.. lemme throw a Fireball and end it. Obviously. That is not a smart move outside the "tactical level." Fuck logistics.

 

[Parabalus]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

Nah they, well, may have changed it over the decades, but that set of difficulties is how they deal with the AI part.

The improved creatures/encounters aren't what I'm thinking about.

I played EET recently which means I had to spend a few weeks deciding which mod and which options. SO I KNOW THINGS>

Doesn't Zhivago get it from SCS giving enemy mages HLAs, similar to the random enemy spawns including liches who summon devas?

 

[Mangoose]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

Nah they, well, may have changed it over the decades, but that set of difficulties is how they deal with the AI part.

The improved creatures/encounters aren't what I'm thinking about.

I played EET recently which means I had to spend a few weeks deciding which mod and which options. SO I KNOW THINGS>

Doesn't Zhivago get it from SCS giving enemy mages HLAs, similar to the random enemy spawns including liches who summon devas?

Um. Well, SCS has 8 different components, each one with a bunch of sub-components. See you're talking about the component(s) that change creatures. That's not the AI component. Actually my big fave part of SCS is that it has good scripts for your own party. I think most up to date, too, because.. I don't know why they keep working on it. Maybe BECAUSE of the EE/EET they came back? I dunno, the grognards here know more than I do.

Ah here, from one of .ini in the EET tool:

Spoiler

[Mod]
Name=Sword Coast Stratagems
Rev=33.7
Type=R,S,T,E
Link=http://www.gibberlings3.net/scs/
Down=https://github.com/Gibberlings3/SwordCoastStratagems/archive/v33.7.zip
Save=SwordCoastStratagems-33.7.zip
Size=28944356
Tra=EN:0,PO:1,GE:2,FR:3,IT:4,RU:5

[WeiDU-EN]
@1500=Include arcane spells from Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition
@1510=Include divine spells from Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition
@1910=Protection from Normal Missiles also blocks Arrows of Fire/Cold/Acid and similar projectiles without pluses
@2000=Allow Spellstrike to take down a Protection from Magic scroll
@2010=More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning)
@2020=Antimagic attacks bypass improved invisibility
@2030=Iron Skins behaves like Stoneskin (can be brought down by Breach)
@2060=Revert Greater Restoration back to only affecting one creature
@2070=Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades only affect hostile creatures
@2090=Make Power-Word: Blind single-target
@2100=Make Minute Meteors into +2 weapons
@2120=Slightly weaken insect plague spells, and let fire shields block them
@2140=Slightly increase the power of Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity
@2150=Make spell sequencers, spell triggers, and contingencies learnable by all mages
@2170=True Sight/True Seeing spells protect from magical blindness
@2180=Grant large, flying, non-solid or similar creatures protection from Web and Entangle
@2200=Prevent elemental area-effect damage from disrupting concentration for creatures 100% immune to that type of elemental damage
@2210=Remove the mental-battle stage from elemental-summoning spells
@2900=Slightly adjust the power or location of some too-powerful items
@3010=Replace +1 arrows with nonmagical "fine" ones
@3020=Replace many +1 magic weapons with nonmagical "fine" ones -> BG2 only
@3021=Replace many +1 magic weapons with nonmagical "fine" ones -> Fine weapons are immune to the iron crisis
@3022=Replace many +1 magic weapons with nonmagical "fine" ones -> Fine weapons are affected by the iron crisis
@3040=Reduce the number of Arrows of Dispelling in stores -> Remove Arrows of Dispelling from stores
@3041=Reduce the number of Arrows of Dispelling in stores -> Stores sell a maximum of 5 Arrows of Dispelling
@3500=Standardise spells: BG1 vs BG2 -> Remove spells not in BG1
@3501=Standardise spells: BG1 vs BG2 -> Introduce BG2 spell scrolls into BG1
@3505=Wider selection of random scrolls
@3510=Modify the Harm spell so it does damage rather than reducing target to 1 hp
@3520=Allow individual versions of Spell Immunity to be placed into Contingencies and Spell Triggers
@3530=Cap damage done by Skull Trap at 12d6
@3540=Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic -> Inquisitors dispel at 1.5 x their level (not twice their level)
@3541=Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic -> Inquisitors dispel at their level (not twice their level)
@3550=Increase the power of Cure Wounds and Cause Wounds spells to the level found in 3rd Edition D&D -> Spells heal or inflict a random amount of damage (1d8 per level of the spell, plus 1 point per caster level, to a maximum of 5 points per spell level)
@3551=Increase the power of Cure Wounds and Cause Wounds spells to the level found in 3rd Edition D&D -> Spells heal or inflict the maximum amount of damage in this range
@3552=Increase the power of Cure Wounds and Cause Wounds spells to the level found in 3rd Edition D&D -> Spells heal or inflict about the average amount of damage in this range
@3580=Restoration and Lesser Restoration spells heal ability-score damage
@4000=Faster Bears
@4020=More realistic wolves and wild dogs
@4030=Improved shapeshifting
@4050=Decrease the rate at which reputation improves -> Reputation increases at about 2/3 the normal rate
@4051=Decrease the rate at which reputation improves -> Reputation increases at about 1/2 the normal rate
@4052=Decrease the rate at which reputation improves -> Reputation increases at about 1/3 the normal rate
@4093=Decrease the rate at which reputation improves -> Reputation increases at about 1/4 the normal rate
@4099=Allow player to choose NPC proficiencies and skills
@4100=Improved NPC customisation and management (BROKEN)
@4110=Allow NPC pairs to separate
@4115=Thieves assign skill points in multiples of five
@4120=NPCs go to inns
@4130=Move NPCs to more convenient locations
@4140=Allow Yeslick to use axes
@4145=Skip the Candlekeep tutorial sections -> Remove the tutorial NPCs from Candlekeep
@4146=Skip the Candlekeep tutorial sections -> Skip Candlekeep altogether (warning: breaks the 4th wall!)
@4150=Allow the Cowled Wizards to detect spellcasting in most indoor, above-ground areas in Athkatla
@4160=Increase the price of a license to practise magic in Athkatla -> License costs 10,000 gp
@4161=Increase the price of a license to practise magic in Athkatla -> License costs 15,000 gp
@4162=Increase the price of a license to practise magic in Athkatla -> License costs 20,000 gp
@4163=Increase the price of a license to practise magic in Athkatla -> License costs 30,000 gp
@4164=Increase the price of a license to practise magic in Athkatla -> License costs 50,000 gp
@4170=Increase the price asked by Gaelan Bayle -> Gaelan wants 40,000 gold pieces
@4171=Increase the price asked by Gaelan Bayle -> Gaelan wants 60,000 gold pieces
@4172=Increase the price asked by Gaelan Bayle -> Gaelan wants 80,000 gold pieces
@4173=Increase the price asked by Gaelan Bayle -> Gaelan wants 100,000 gold pieces
@4174=Increase the price asked by Gaelan Bayle -> Gaelan wants 120,000 gold pieces
@4180=Make Freedom scrolls available earlier
@4190=Enforce Watchers' Keep visit between SoA and ToB (warning: this will make it inaccessible until the end of SoA)
@4200=Retrieve Dropped Items from Hell
@4210=Randomise the maze in Watcher's Keep
@4215=Remove unrealistically helpful items from certain areas
@4216=Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from certain areas -> Only remove nonmagical ammo from random containers
@4217=Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from certain areas -> Remove ammo up to the +2 level from random containers
@4218=Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from certain areas -> Remove all ammo from random containers
@4230=Delay the arrival of the "bonus merchants" in the Adventurers' Mart and the Copper Coronet
@4240=Treat mages' and priests' High-Level Abilities as innate abilities rather than memorisable spells (each may be taken only once)
@4250=Make spell sequencers and contingencies into innate abilities
@5000=Ease-of-use party AI
@5010=Move Boo into Minsc's pack
@5020=Remove the blur graphic effect from the Cloak of Displacement
@5030=Remove animation from the Cloak of Mirroring (leave it for other spells and effects that use the same graphic)
@5050=Stackable ankheg shells, winterwolf pelts and wyvern heads
@5060=Ensure Shar-Teel doesn't die in the original challenge
@5070=Cosmetic change: stop Stoneskins from changing the caster's colour
@5080=Improved TotSC cutscenes
@5900=Initialise AI components (required for all tactical and AI components)
@6000=Smarter general AI
@6010=Better calls for help
@6030=Smarter Mages
@6040=Smarter Priests
@6100=Potions for NPCs
@6200=Improved Spiders
@6300=Smarter sirines and dryads
@6310=Slightly harder carrion crawlers
@6320=Smarter basilisks
@6500=Improved golems
@6510=Improved fiends and celestials
@6520=Smarter genies
@6540=Smarter dragons
@6550=Smarter beholders
@6560=Smarter mind flayers
@6570=Smarter githyanki
@6580=Improved Vampires
@6590=Smarter Throne of Bhaal final villain
@6800=Smarter Illasera
@6810=Smarter Gromnir
@6820=Smarter Yaga-Shura
@6830=Smarter Abazigal
@6840=Give Ascension versions of Irenicus and Sendai SCS scripts and abilities
@6850=Give Ascension demons SCS scripts and abilities
@7000=Improved doppelgangers
@7010=Tougher Black Talons and Iron Throne guards
@7020=Improved deployment for parties of assassins
@7030=Dark Side-based kobold upgrade
@7040=Relocated bounty hunters
@7050=Improved Ulcaster
@7060=Improved Balduran's Isle
@7070=Improved Durlag's Tower
@7080=Improved Demon Cultists
@7090=Improved Cloakwood Druids
@7100=Improved Bassilus
@7110=Improved Drasus party
@7130=Improved Red Wizards
@7140=Improved Undercity party
@7200=Tougher chapter-two end battle
@7210=Tougher chapter-three end battle
@7220=Tougher chapter-four end battle
@7230=Tougher chapter-five end battle
@7250=Improved final battle
@7900=Improved minor encounters BG1
@8190=Improved minor encounters BG2
@8000=Make the starting dungeon slightly harder
@8010=Improved Shade Lord
@8020=Spellcasting Demiliches
@8030=More resilient trolls
@8040=Tie difficulty of level-dependent monster groupings to the difficulty slider
@8050=Improved Random Encounters
@8060=Improved de'Arnise Keep ("Tactics Remix")
@8070=Improved Unseeing Eye
@8080=Improved Bodhi (Tactics Remix)
@8090=Party's items are taken from them in Spellhold
@8100=Improved battle with Irenicus in Spellhold
@8110=Improved Sahuagin
@8120=Improved Beholder hive (adapted from Quest Pack)
@8130=Rebalanced troll regeneration
@8140=Slightly Improved Drow
@8150=Slightly Improved Watcher's Keep
@8160=Improved Fire Giant temple
@8170=Enhanced Sendai's Enclave
@8180=Improved Abazigal's Lair

 

[Parabalus]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

Nah they, well, may have changed it over the decades, but that set of difficulties is how they deal with the AI part.

The improved creatures/encounters aren't what I'm thinking about.

I played EET recently which means I had to spend a few weeks deciding which mod and which options. SO I KNOW THINGS>

Doesn't Zhivago get it from SCS giving enemy mages HLAs, similar to the random enemy spawns including liches who summon devas?

Um. Well, SCS has 8 different components, each one with a bunch of sub-components. See you're talking about the component(s) that change creatures. That's not the AI component. Actually my big fave part of SCS is that it has good scripts for your own party. I think most up to date, too, because.. I don't know why they keep working on it. Maybe BECAUSE of the EE/EET they came back? I dunno, the grognards here know more than I do.

Yes, because of the EEs.

So do you just skip all the creature components?
Doesn't really make sense.

 

[hell bovine]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

Nah they, well, may have changed it over the decades, but that set of difficulties is how they deal with the AI part.

The improved creatures/encounters aren't what I'm thinking about.

I played EET recently which means I had to spend a few weeks deciding which mod and which options. SO I KNOW THINGS>

Doesn't Zhivago get it from SCS giving enemy mages HLAs, similar to the random enemy spawns including liches who summon devas?

Nope. Tactics is an older mod and that encounter had the deva from the start. Funny enough that wasn't even the toughest part, the earliest versions of Tactics populated the dungeon with invisible shadowthieves armed with magical wands.

 

[Mangoose]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

Nah they, well, may have changed it over the decades, but that set of difficulties is how they deal with the AI part.

The improved creatures/encounters aren't what I'm thinking about.

I played EET recently which means I had to spend a few weeks deciding which mod and which options. SO I KNOW THINGS>

Doesn't Zhivago get it from SCS giving enemy mages HLAs, similar to the random enemy spawns including liches who summon devas?

Um. Well, SCS has 8 different components, each one with a bunch of sub-components. See you're talking about the component(s) that change creatures. That's not the AI component. Actually my big fave part of SCS is that it has good scripts for your own party. I think most up to date, too, because.. I don't know why they keep working on it. Maybe BECAUSE of the EE/EET they came back? I dunno, the grognards here know more than I do.

Yes, because of the EEs.

So do you just skip all the creature components?
Doesn't really make sense.

Nah I do the ones that look reasonable and don't conflict with other mods (which Roxanne deals with).

And.. Actually I don't do the smarter mages part because ffuu good AI is scarier than numbers.

 

[Mangoose]

I"m just gonna stop talking now because honestly this is my chess geek coming out.

Edit: Actually I'll leave with this https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i5hWkHXHOetRlpLOmxbpoEWod77psN0JcwFvxClNrGc/edit pretty useful thoughts and explained better than I can.

Instead of trying to stick to a classic paradigm or adhere to a strict category of classes we should simply go back to the start and work our way up from that foundation when building an effective group. Let’s start with a very basic combat goal.

”TO OVERCOME THE ENCOUNTER AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE”

Whether or not you translate this into “survive” or “win” it must be understood that in Pathfinder, throughout the course of the adventuring day, you are likely to have multiple encounters throughout the day.

Rigid adherence to a single tactic is usually the least consistent form of defeating encounters

When we speak of this truth we are referring to characters that are essentially one trick ponies such as dedicated two handed fighters, mounted combat characters, dedicated archers, generally characters that are built only to operate in a specific set of circumstances (i.e. adjacent to an opponent and full attacking) must have a means of setting up that circumstance consistently (like pounce for barbarians) or find a different method of accomplishing that goal (switch hitting rangers, gunslingers who carry melee weapons).
...
What this teaches us is that an effective party member must be able and willing to accomplish their assigned task in many different ways or else be able to take on a different task altogether when a situation presents itself to make that method unfeasible.

Initiative is (almost) everything

It is no secret for anyone to discover that having a high initiative is absolutely imperative. Going first allows a group to take advantage of an opponent's flatfooted status to get into position as well as set the pace for the battle and immediately be on the offensive or in some cases have defensive abilities up for the inevitable reprisal. Of course having extremely high initiative is not as important as positioning nor is it as important as the appropriate use of it. A dedicated damage dealer who charges before the party wizard lays down battlefield control is actually only acting to make things more difficult for himself as he will be attacking an opponent who is not affected by that battlefield control.

Positioning is everything

This is more or less a silent truth but the fact of the matter is nothing you do matters unless you are in an appropriate position to do your assigned task. A polearm wielding trip specialist can’t do his work forty feet from the enemy, a two weapon paladin cannot swing at a flying opponent, and archers cannot operate effectively in a dense forest, spellcasters cannot often affect an opponent outside of their line of effects. Ultimately more than initiative being in the right place at the right time is more important to the overall success of the group.

Part of individual optimization is about eliminating circumstances or creating new circumstances where your position matters very little or where you can reach the appropriate position faster. As an example the fly spell is not so important purely for numbers but for the positioning opportunities it provides. Wizards can more easily evade ground bound opponents while simultaneously making use of it to provide their group with an expanded range of positions to take from which they can accomplish their assigned tasks. It is no wonder then that knowing this truth that we can understand the importance of spells such as Grease, Create Pit, and Entangle that not only provide serious debuffs to an enemy but also compromise the enemies positioning (i.e. controlling the battlefield) and allow the group to take on superior positions of their own (like flanking, attacking from the high ground, etc.) Ultimately what positioning provides are offensive and defensive options that are separate from the unreliable and fickle dice rolls that make up much of the resolution mechanics.

Pathfinder is a lot about resource management

...

The goal of the balanced and optimal group then is to meet or increase the efficiency of its resource use to this standard. Never expending more than what is required and making the best use of its abundant resources or making use of resource efficient actions in order to defeat an encounter.

To this end proactive abilities that reduce the difficulty of an encounter are typically the most resource efficient. As just two examples consider the difference between Slow and Cure Serious Wounds. Cure serious wounds is a reactive spell that ultimately negates at most two attacks for its level. Slow on the other hand can negate many many attacks over a number of rounds as staggered opponents will be foiled from getting into position and making full attacks time and time again.

Pathfinder combat favors offense over defense

...Consider for a moment that every opponent everywhere has at least a 5% chance to hit you if they make an attack (barring miss chances). Consider further that as levels progress a character will take more and more of these chances as full attacks start to include iterative attacks and often mix in with natural attacks. Then consider that damage can easily outclass all but the strongest healing methods while still punching through damage reduction and you start to get a picture of why setting the pace of a battle suddenly becomes more important than having high passive defenses. Optimized parties want to be on the offensive as soon as possible and as hard as possible in order to ensure that battles end quickly before the tide can be turned upon them...


Thus it becomes imperative to a group to be able to simultaneously place an opponent on the defensive, stifle any counter offensive, and then be able to launch its own offensive in order to ensure the accomplishment of the above goal. While sounding like a tall order it’s really something groups do all the time. A group that wins initiative and has great position immediately puts an opponent on the defensive. A group that lays down battlefield control or debuffs is usually stifling counter offensives as well. Lastly a group’s damage dealers are launching the offensive. So in a sense most groups are understanding this truth already. Groups that rely heavily on reactive strategies and defensive tactics often find themselves in long drawn out wars of attrition that are highly inefficient and do little more than weaken a group’s chances of survival in a game where there is no point or period where a group might be called 100% safe.

So I should have mentioned that with my "reach tank" in front, squishies behind, I am also coming down the flank and/or somehow attacking. The mere fact that they are coming at your squishies means they are giving up defensive openings. Not to mention that they need their squishies to support their offense.

TBH most of my "tricks" I come up on the spot. Come in with a plan and a toolbox and then use your tools to best take advantage of the situation.

Edit: Oh, he has a followup that focuses more on the minute tactics themselves. But, honestly, same principles for anything.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_5Z07_yn8EJzPWcCAwo8q1iv_RnNqAHhKqfVQgx00Cw/edit

 

[Fronder]

I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.

Neither of those things is necessary though, even on Unfair.

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.

That's not necessary either. You should either accept the higher difficulties aren't for you, or try to git gud.

Sure, it isn't necessary, but then, nothing in the game 100% is. It isn't necessary to use magic in the game at all. It isn't necessary to wear armor. It isn't necessary to use any consumable items.
If anything this tactic is strategically superior - it doesn't use any resources, keeps your party healthy, and doesn't use up the time resting does.
Ultimately the only reason I did it is because of the game's timelimit. I wasn't sure if there was always some background time limit that I wasn't aware of, or I worried that if I wasted too much time resting I would put myself in too much of a hole with Kingdom Management and have to restart.
And hey, I caught up on some TV while I was doing it, so it was actually pretty fun.

Is this your first playthrough? The game gets significantly easier once you reach lvl 6/7. At these levels your full BAB characters get second attack, you get Haste for a third attack (and other buffs' bonuses increase), you get most of the basic magical gear and most of the core feats. Essentially, your party suddenly triples in it's strength, while enemies do not keep up with you.

The only multiclass I could wholeheartedly recommend is for Linzi Bard 7 -> Freeboter 5 with all the corresponding archery feats (Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and later Shatter Defences). This simple build is even stronger in the game than on paper and she was the sole reason why I've switched from Hard to Unfair during Varnhold chapter.

And if you want to abuse - cast invisibility (or expeditious retreat), activate Heart of Ira and run around in circles. Or just turn down the difficulty

That said, the game really isn't that difficult. Even among recent RPGs, Age of Decadence and Blackguards 1 (in some areas) were twice as hard. And Dungeon Rats was downright insane in comparison.

 

[Mangoose]

Is this your first playthrough? The game gets significantly easier once you reach lvl 6/7. At these levels your full BAB characters get second attack, you get Haste for a third attack (and other buffs' bonuses increase), you get most of the basic magical gear and most of the core feats. Essentially, your party suddenly triples in it's strength, while enemies do not keep up with you.

The only multiclass I could wholeheartedly recommend is for Linzi Bard 7 -> Freeboter 5 with all the corresponding archery feats (Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and later Shatter Defences). This simple build is even stronger in the game than on paper and she was the sole reason why I've switched from Hard to Unfair during Varnhold chapter.

Yah, the game doesn't really favor multiclassing, despite it being still 3.5e, as Desiderius explained way back. I really think it's because the 6th-level casting hybrids work very well though not overpowered.

 

[NJClaw]

I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.

Sure, it makes a lot of sense.

"Hey, this corpse won't stay down! She keeps getting up every time we kill her, should we chop her into pieces?"

"Nah, let's just wait, maybe this time she is REALLY dead."

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.

Then... don't play on higher difficulties.

It sounds almost like those higher difficulties are there for people who already know how to make perfect builds and which encounters they can do at each level, you know?

Sure, it isn't necessary, but then, nothing in the game 100% is. It isn't necessary to use magic in the game at all. It isn't necessary to wear armor. It isn't necessary to use any consumable items.

Are you implying that gimping your progression with useless dips is as useful as magic in this game? Dude.

And hey, I caught up on some TV while I was doing it, so it was actually pretty fun.

Well, to settle this we need to know what kind of TV we are talking about. Was it La La Land?

 

[Desiderius]

New guy here, I started following ineffect's guides because I never played PF and am rusty in 3.5, then I realized he was some epic only the last 5 hours of endgame matters RPG guy (even name searched him in this thread and got confirmation) and switched to roahin's templates. I still feel like I'm fumbling in the dark and I'd like some pointers on a couple of companion builds.
Amiri, I gave her Vivi 1, yes yes ineffect splash but I don't regret it due to mutagen and some sneak attacks decisively closing fights. 1 THF because I wanted to eventually pump her up of feats like the Cleave line, no pets or anything druidic. Now I see freebooter has some great aoe buffs and people generally only put 10 levels in it, can I start that or am I too late by virtue of having splahed around too much already? If yes, can I go FB 10, put the rest in THF, maybe another one in barbarian for uncanny dodge?
Regongar, I'm already playing his dex scion build for my baron and I feel that his BnB ES/DD build overlaps too much, although having another tank that isn't Baron/Valerie/Harrimlol is appreciated. I see Desiderius mentioned making him a thundercall bard, or a feyspeaker, can anyone elaborate on those? What makes him good in these classes? I'm only ES 3, I'm willing to go with anything, as long as it's fun and doesn't feel like I'm running another MC in my team. Tank leaning would be appreciated

I'm playing on Challenging, possibly raising it higher past the low level curve. Btw I dunno if it's the benefit of playing a patched game in turn based, but what the fuck was wrong with people on release? ToEE was much harder than this

Glad you could join us.

You can respec in Tavern if you want to make any adjustments. Sounds like at this point you'll have more fun figuring things out for yourself than reading guides or relying on us.

Vivi splash can kind of smooth out the difficulty by making you better early but worse late but given the alternatives like Freebooter that worse starts at level 5. THF and Bites don't really go together and the Bite is the most important long term benefit of the Vivi Splash. I like FB10/Barb10 on Amiri for Uncanny Dodge, Inspiring Ferocity, and eventually Pounce along with simply more rounds of Rage.

Making Reg a Bard works well with his Stats just in case you eventually happen to find yourself needing another Bard. The Thundercall ability regrettably probably isn't worth it since the other songs are so good and the Bard abilities don't benefit from his Bloodline Electricity boost as one would think they would. Feycaller is kind of a joke based on the arc of his companion quest (he's not initially eligible for Druid) and Feycaller being the only way to get CHR-based Divine Casting for MT. If you want something advanced to play with it does have some unique benefits. If your main is a Scion you're probably going to want to take him in another direction but there are all sorts of options.

My favorite is Untamed Rager Barb archetype from CotW. Dirty Trick - Blind + move in first round, then you're well positioned to Spellstrike against a vulnerable opponent in the second.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...archetypes/untamed-rager-barbarian-archetype/

 

[Desiderius]

The only multiclass I could wholeheartedly recommend is for Linzi Bard 7 -> Freeboter 5 with all the corresponding archery feats (Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and later Shatter Defences). This simple build is even stronger in the game than on paper and she was the sole reason why I've switched from Hard to Unfair during Varnhold chapter.

You don't need to destroy your Bard to get those Freebooter levels. You're truly robbing Peter to pay Paul since you're just trading one group buff for another (while utterly destroying her casting ability) and you REALLY don't have the spare feats lying around to make her a viable archer either, the class doesn't come with any abilities that boost ranged attax, and there is no way to get DEX to damage at range. She belongs in melee with casting her cones or triggering Outflank crit chains with Moskoni's Rapier. Don't waste Mirror Image at range.

Trying to make Linzi viable at range broke InEffective.

I'm no longer using Freebooter at all since Bond is broken, as the Codex tried to tell me when I first got here.

 

[Jackpot]

Is this your first playthrough? The game gets significantly easier once you reach lvl 6/7. At these levels your full BAB characters get second attack, you get Haste for a third attack (and other buffs' bonuses increase), you get most of the basic magical gear and most of the core feats. Essentially, your party suddenly triples in it's strength, while enemies do not keep up with you.

The only multiclass I could wholeheartedly recommend is for Linzi Bard 7 -> Freeboter 5 with all the corresponding archery feats (Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and later Shatter Defences). This simple build is even stronger in the game than on paper and she was the sole reason why I've switched from Hard to Unfair during Varnhold chapter.

And if you want to abuse - cast invisibility (or expeditious retreat), activate Heart of Ira and run around in circles. Or just turn down the difficulty

That said, the game really isn't that difficult. Even among recent RPGs, Age of Decadence and Blackguards 1 (in some areas) were twice as hard. And Dungeon Rats was downright insane in comparison.

Of course, as I said I really only did this within the first few chapters, and only a few times.
And I only did this a bunch on my first few playthroughs, yes, because I really overestimated the importance of the time limit.

Call me shit if you will, but I think I beat Chapter 1 and 2 resting less than five times in each. And I didn't rush through them, I cleared out most of the optional areas.
Honestly I'm proud of myself for doing that without using the Jaethal trick more! Even though in retrospect there wasn't any reason to save time that much.

Well, to settle this we need to know what kind of TV we are talking about. Was it La La Land?

Ironically (?) I was watching An Idiot Abroad.

 

[Yosharian]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

I still have PTSD from Improved Illyich + SCS2

The final Irenicus battle was no joke either, I remember I kept dying in the last few rounds because those summoned sword spells were only vulnerable to my magic missile spells and I kept running out

Painful experience but memorable to say the least

 

[Parabalus]

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.

That was the Tactics mod, old man.

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.

I still have PTSD from Improved Illyich + SCS2

The final Irenicus battle was no joke either, I remember I kept dying in the last few rounds because those summoned sword spells were only vulnerable to my magic missile spells and I kept running out

Painful experience but memorable to say the least

Illyich really took me by surprise since they put in a one rest limit for the entire dungeon, kinda limits the stuff you can pull a lot.

 

[Mangoose]

The only multiclass I could wholeheartedly recommend is for Linzi Bard 7 -> Freeboter 5 with all the corresponding archery feats (Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and later Shatter Defences). This simple build is even stronger in the game than on paper and she was the sole reason why I've switched from Hard to Unfair during Varnhold chapter.

You don't need to destroy your Bard to get those Freebooter levels. You're truly robbing Peter to pay Paul since you're just trading one group buff for another (while utterly destroying her casting ability) and you REALLY don't have the spare feats lying around to make her a viable archer either, the class doesn't come with any abilities that boost ranged attax, and there is no way to get DEX to damage at range. She belongs in melee with casting her cones or triggering Outflank crit chains with Moskoni's Rapier. Don't waste Mirror Image at range.

Trying to make Linzi viable at range broke InEffective.

Yeah, one thing that's important is that... Strength matters a lot for archery. There's no dex-to-dmg, only composite bows. And if you have a full BAB class you might not need that much Dex. Took me a while to realize that because I/we have the habit of spellcasters using ranged weapons as backups. But here, ranged weapons may not be the secondary role you want for a caster.

lmao oops I just said hwat you said in different words. I need coffee

 

[Mangoose]

Ah, this is wargame where Gygax derived D&D: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game)

In fact current tabletop wargames (40k, Warmachine) still use move and attack as distinct phases. Other things change but they always tend to be distinct decisions.

Suffice it to say... Turn based is good because it helps you make sure that you are making the optimal decision the ENTIRE battle. It's harder to manage that in real time. So you gotta really see the game as Every Turn Matters.

If you've played Chess, a single useless move lets the other guy take advantage and steal initiative. Initiative and positioning is fucking everything in Chess. One wrong move and you can lose. That's how I beat my coach.

Think about MMO.

Means, Motive, Opportunity. I had the Means and the Motive. But I need an Opportunity before I could strike.

(That's criminal profiling lmao)

 

[Fronder]

Of course, as I said I really only did this within the first few chapters, and only a few times.
And I only did this a bunch on my first few playthroughs, yes, because I really overestimated the importance of the time limit.

Call me shit if you will, but I think I beat Chapter 1 and 2 resting less than five times in each. And I didn't rush through them, I cleared out most of the optional areas.
Honestly I'm proud of myself for doing that without using the Jaethal trick more! Even though in retrospect there wasn't any reason to save time that much.

Frankly, this idea about Jaethal never came to my mind at all I'm playing without deaths and knock-outs anyway.

The only multiclass I could wholeheartedly recommend is for Linzi Bard 7 -> Freeboter 5 with all the corresponding archery feats (Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and later Shatter Defences). This simple build is even stronger in the game than on paper and she was the sole reason why I've switched from Hard to Unfair during Varnhold chapter.

You don't need to destroy your Bard to get those Freebooter levels. You're truly robbing Peter to pay Paul since you're just trading one group buff for another (while utterly destroying her casting ability) and you REALLY don't have the spare feats lying around to make her a viable archer either, the class doesn't come with any abilities that boost ranged attax, and there is no way to get DEX to damage at range. She belongs in melee with casting her cones or triggering Outflank crit chains with Moskoni's Rapier. Don't waste Mirror Image at range.

Trying to make Linzi viable at range broke InEffective.

I'm no longer using Freebooter at all since Bond is broken, as the Codex tried to tell me when I first got here.

But you have to have at least one archer and Ekun is too OP, so why not Linzi?

She gains more from Freebooter levels than staying pure Bard (that is of course if you don't have anyone else with Freebooter levels)

+2/+2 form Good Hope
+2/+2 from Inspire Competence
+2/+2 from Bond
+2/+2 from Mark Target
[+4 from Outflank]

is usually the differnce between hitting at 15-20 and hitting at 5-20 (this, again, essentially triples your damage)

And because of Gloves of Archery, Death from Afar and various Quivers she has enough ABs and Damage to kill most enemies in 1 round (just as an example, she just killed Mandragora Swarms in 1 round without a problem).

And Fascinate still works (those poor Hellknights ).

As I've said, it works better in the game than it looks on paper.

It's OP, but very satisfying.

 

[Salvo]

If you're going to abuse broken game mechanics you might aswell lower the difficulty, you know...

I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.

If the AI wasn't broken / had been coded to prevent this you'd get Coup-de-Grace'd. Would happen in tabletop too.

 

[Mangoose]

This looks to be a pretty comprehensive "beginner's guide," as long as you have a little bit of experience with D&D so that you know the jargon.

Nephril's Extended Beginners Guide to Pathfinder


Desiderius What do you think? None of the rest of the guides seemed to write in a manner where the audience was the beginner.

 

[Desiderius]

Fascinate doesn’t work on Hellknights because you destroyed your DC.

How did you kill a Mandragora Swarm in one shot when they’re immune from Physical?

Nobody says you need any ranged companions but you have better candidates for that than Linzi, just as there are better Booters. At best you’ve sucked up an entire game’s worth of great ranged equipment to pull her up to below average.

Even AT Octavia will handily outdamage Linzi with a Bow from the Sneaks.

Linzi as pure Bard is the lynchpin of the best parties which is why (spoiler).

 

[Mangoose]

Fascinate doesn’t work on Hellknights because you destroyed your DC.

How did you kill a Mandragora Swarm in one shot when they’re immune from Physical?

Nobody says you need any ranged companions but you have better candidates for that than Linzi, just as there are better Booters. At best you’ve sucked up an entire game’s worth of great ranged equipment to pull her up to below average.

Even AT Octavia will handily outdamage Linzi with a Bow from the Sneaks.

Linzi as pure Bard is the lynchpin of the best parties which is why (spoiler).

Make her an Evangelist Cleric. Holy fuck are they crazy.

Besides that.. hm.. the Court Bard is something to look at. Another debuffing Bard, like the Jester from BG.

Well, I'm kinda an asshat, and I prefer debuffing my enemy than pft buffing pft teammates.

On a serious note: Screwing up the other guy's plan is one of the best tactics if not the entire principle. If you can figure out what he wants to do, then you do the best you can to fucking up their plan.

Because... this is exactly why Blitzkrieg worked. They knew their target's weaknesses and strengths (strength without mobility) and thus did Germany take France out. This, of course, you should have learned from school.

(And then the Russians' "Defense in Depth"(sp?) was a neat counter.)

 

[Mangoose]

COTW update

 

[Mangoose]

Yeah Nano you're right, it's probably better to learn how to play via experience: playing games like Silent Storm, or Chess, or things that. You know, games that make you think?

TBH this thread shows the necessity of a Tactical RPG subforum. I mean, D&D is a skirmish-sized wargame with LARPing.

 

[Nano]

Yeah Nano you're right, it's probably better to learn how to play via experience: playing games like Silent Storm, or Chess, or things that. You know, games that make you think?

TBH this thread shows the necessity of a Tactical RPG subforum. I mean, D&D is a skirmish-sized wargame with LARPing.

I was rating your gigantic quote pyramid, my dude.