Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Mangoose]

The PFK TB is good because it took an existing designed structure that has been successful for almost two decades now.

Yes, Pathfnder has various things you can do during an opponents turn. Attacks of Opportunity are one. Immediate actions are another, various specific actions you can do whenever.

And as you can imagine, replicating this system's flexibility in a cRPG is not an easy thing to do.

Yeah uh those are in the game. It's surprisingly carbon-copy.. I haven't played RTWP at all and TB is honestly less clunky than TOEE.

You were asking about tactical tabletop games, whole different story because I was thinking of a sniper having overwatch over entire LOS, able to make (or required to make) "attacks of opportunity" at anybody who peeks out of cover in the whole map.

Edit: Dude you didn't even read what he wrote. What he said was missing were Readied Actions. Everything else he mentioned ARE in game.

 

[Mangoose]

I play Infinity. That's on a different level than tabletop RPGs, because Gygax derived wargames to make what ended up a small party RPG. You'd be much better off looking for games like Silent Storm if you want tactics because... Well, here's some examples of stuff you need to do/know in Infinity - on tabletop:

This is your zone of control. Provokes reaction if an enemy gets that close:

Checking LOS:

ANY time an enemy runs into your LoF, ZoC, or both (and within range), then you get an automatic reaction on their turn. (Usually that's where the deaths come from lol)

...But this includes Snipers, or a machinegun template covering a hallway, or a flamethrower.

In fact, every character is in constant overwatch. So if you're asking me about 40k/Infinity/wargames... These are the very very bare basics from one. It's not D&D.

 

[Haplo]

Just realized I’d never tried TB before. Wow that is really smooth. As Lann says though big part of my game is interrupting things. This would play out more like D:OS with enemy not getting chance to act much at all.

Well, the problem with DOS is that they didn't roll for initiative. You have to roll for initiative here so you can't guarantee order. Owlcat didn't design/choose the foundational framework, Paizo did, so you're stuck with that natural basis, whether turn based or rtwp.

Well, you roll for Initiative, fair enough. The important thing is that when your turn comes up, you can delay it as much, as you want and control when (after which character) you will act. Which is very different from Deadfire Turn Based patchwork job for example, where delaying actions automatically puts you at the end of round queue - which is just lazy and sucks.

"Patchwork" is a good choice of words - PFK didn't patch it together or make their own mechanics. I'm not playing PF:K turn-based simply because it's turn based. It's more like personal preference. The PFK TB is good because it took an existing designed structure that has been successful for almost two decades now. They didn't HAVE to but it was the safer and smarter move to stick with something that's worked.

I mean, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is the closest to tabletop rules I've seen, next to ToEE. Except a lot less clunky than ToEE. And being more interesting.

For Pillars, unfortunately PFK was lucky to have a pre-designed ruleset, Pillars did not. But based on this scenario, TB in Pillars should've been a new creation that fits with their OWN pre-designed ruleset. You can't blindly throw in concepts like delaying initiative and think you have good turn based design. Instead you need mechanics that best fit the situation, that situation being RWTP Pillars.

Problem is Pillars is that even as RTWP doesn't try to make new mechanics that complemented RTWP. They still went in too much "tabletop convention" in their minds. But Pillars is a RTWP computer game, and designwork has to start from that angle. If you do that - actually focus on RTWP - then there's potential for much better RTWP.

In general Pillars mechanics aren't perfect, but (mostly) make a lot of sense for a RTwP game. And it COULD have been a fine TB system too. I cannot forgive the devs for doing such a lazy, patchwork job and calling it a day. I guess they maybe used some intern to implement it over a weekend or something. Their TB system could have been fine, if they went for personal initiative/action speed, rather then 1 round = 1 action for all (plus unlimited Free Actions?!) - regardless of action time/speed modifiers/modals in place.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I see that my reading comprehension is incompatible with some tabletoppers. Nothing new here, though.

 

[Mangoose]

Just realized I’d never tried TB before. Wow that is really smooth. As Lann says though big part of my game is interrupting things. This would play out more like D:OS with enemy not getting chance to act much at all.

Well, the problem with DOS is that they didn't roll for initiative. You have to roll for initiative here so you can't guarantee order. Owlcat didn't design/choose the foundational framework, Paizo did, so you're stuck with that natural basis, whether turn based or rtwp.

Well, you roll for Initiative, fair enough. The important thing is that when your turn comes up, you can delay it as much, as you want and control when (after which character) you will act. Which is very different from Deadfire Turn Based patchwork job for example, where delaying actions automatically puts you at the end of round queue - which is just lazy and sucks.

"Patchwork" is a good choice of words - PFK didn't patch it together or make their own mechanics. I'm not playing PF:K turn-based simply because it's turn based. It's more like personal preference. The PFK TB is good because it took an existing designed structure that has been successful for almost two decades now. They didn't HAVE to but it was the safer and smarter move to stick with something that's worked.

I mean, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is the closest to tabletop rules I've seen, next to ToEE. Except a lot less clunky than ToEE. And being more interesting.

For Pillars, unfortunately PFK was lucky to have a pre-designed ruleset, Pillars did not. But based on this scenario, TB in Pillars should've been a new creation that fits with their OWN pre-designed ruleset. You can't blindly throw in concepts like delaying initiative and think you have good turn based design. Instead you need mechanics that best fit the situation, that situation being RWTP Pillars.

Problem is Pillars is that even as RTWP doesn't try to make new mechanics that complemented RTWP. They still went in too much "tabletop convention" in their minds. But Pillars is a RTWP computer game, and designwork has to start from that angle. If you do that - actually focus on RTWP - then there's potential for much better RTWP.

In general Pillars mechanics aren't perfect, but (mostly) make a lot of sense for a RTwP game. And it COULD have been a fine TB system too. I cannot forgive the devs for doing such a lazy, patchwork job and calling it a day. I guess they maybe used some intern to implement it over a weekend or something. Their TB system could have been fine, if they went for personal initiative/action speed, rather then 1 round = 1 action for all (plus unlimited Free Actions?!) - regardless of action time/speed modifiers/modals in place.

TBH I was hoping to see a RTWP game designed from scratch without any burdens from pre-existing rulesets.

And yeah, it's not simply shove in TB... You figure out how to make it work with the gameplay. Thus I said I'm not going to play TB for TB's sake. With PF:K turn based really means emulates the existing tabletop game well. If it weren't and had stupid design decisions and it were patched up like Deadfire... then, no, I'd then be playing the one that's less unfun.

 

[Desiderius]

Just realized I’d never tried TB before. Wow that is really smooth. As Lann says though big part of my game is interrupting things. This would play out more like D:OS with enemy not getting chance to act much at all.

Well, the problem with DOS is that they didn't roll for initiative. You have to roll for initiative here so you can't guarantee order. Owlcat didn't design/choose the foundational framework, Paizo did, so you're stuck with that natural basis, whether turn based or rtwp.

Well, you roll for Initiative, fair enough. The important thing is that when your turn comes up, you can delay it as much, as you want and control when (after which character) you will act. Which is very different from Deadfire Turn Based patchwork job for example, where delaying actions automatically puts you at the end of round queue - which is just lazy and sucks.

"Patchwork" is a good choice of words - PFK didn't patch it together or make their own mechanics. I'm not playing PF:K turn-based simply because it's turn based. It's more like personal preference. The PFK TB is good because it took an existing designed structure that has been successful for almost two decades now. They didn't HAVE to but it was the safer and smarter move to stick with something that's worked.

I mean, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is the closest to tabletop rules I've seen, next to ToEE. Except a lot less clunky than ToEE. And being more interesting.

For Pillars, unfortunately PFK was lucky to have a pre-designed ruleset, Pillars did not. But based on this scenario, TB in Pillars should've been a new creation that fits with their OWN pre-designed ruleset. You can't blindly throw in concepts like delaying initiative and think you have good turn based design. Instead you need mechanics that best fit the situation, that situation being RWTP Pillars.

Problem is Pillars is that even as RTWP doesn't try to make new mechanics that complemented RTWP. They still went in too much "tabletop convention" in their minds. But Pillars is a RTWP computer game, and designwork has to start from that angle. If you do that - actually focus on RTWP - then there's potential for much better RTWP.

In general Pillars mechanics aren't perfect, but (mostly) make a lot of sense for a RTwP game. And it COULD have been a fine TB system too. I cannot forgive the devs for doing such a lazy, patchwork job and calling it a day. I guess they maybe used some intern to implement it over a weekend or something. Their TB system could have been fine, if they went for personal initiative/action speed, rather then 1 round = 1 action for all (plus unlimited Free Actions?!) - regardless of action time/speed modifiers/modals in place.

I hadn’t realized how much smoother P:K’s TB is. Looks like I’ll end up using it with Unfair regular damage or something as my play skill atrophies.

 

[Mangoose]

I hadn’t realized how much smoother P:K’s TB is. Looks like I’ll end up using it with Unfair regular damage or something as my play skill atrophies.

I forgot that it was RTWP lol. Definitely a better GUI than TOEE lol

Edit: I just realized - this would be a lot different if not for Proper Flanking. Or maybe they simply expected Holic to deal with that part while they out-moded the "closer to tabletop" mod.

 

[Mangoose]

I'm trying out this non-flurry-of-blows armored warpriest lol, while using Pummeling Charge to get a Full Attack on pounce. Main reason is if that's possible, then you should be able to Spell Combat because that's also full action (the feat says basically you get full attack of flurry of blows, or just full attack in general). I don't have Flurry which will be interesting.

However my unarmed strike works... using Arsenal Chaplain and bypassing Sacred Fist. Basically 1 level of Master of Many Styles (bc you can get that damn Pummeling Charge early), then Arsenal Chaplain -> Sacred Weapon Focus your Unarmed Strikes into being like a sacred weapon.

 

[Desiderius]

I hadn’t realized how much smoother P:K’s TB is. Looks like I’ll end up using it with Unfair regular damage or something as my play skill atrophies.

I forgot that it was RTWP lol. Definitely a better GUI than TOEE lol

Edit: I just realized - this would be a lot different if not for Proper Flanking. Or maybe they simply expected Holic to deal with that part while they out-moded the "closer to tabletop" mod.

90% of my mental energy is now trying to deal with cover, proper flanking, and getting ranged teamwork feats turned on. And trying to get value out of Skald...

 

[Mangoose]

I hadn’t realized how much smoother P:K’s TB is. Looks like I’ll end up using it with Unfair regular damage or something as my play skill atrophies.

I forgot that it was RTWP lol. Definitely a better GUI than TOEE lol

Edit: I just realized - this would be a lot different if not for Proper Flanking. Or maybe they simply expected Holic to deal with that part while they out-moded the "closer to tabletop" mod.

90% of my mental energy is now trying to deal with cover, proper flanking, and getting ranged teamwork feats turned on. And trying to get value out of Skald...

I'm thinking now that the "vanilla" flanking was not very strict, not just for the player's sake but for the AI. For example, enemy Thieves always backstab... no matter which way they're turning. However, tehy only get that one backstab the whole battle unless they go invis. Now, there's an option to use 3e sneak attack from flanking... So it basically becomes Sneak Attack central because facing doesn't matter .... only for the AI. It was as close to patching it as possible haha (and hidden option anyway)

 

[Efe]

Isn't turning on song enough to get value from skald?
1 click and everyone gets a bite and a gore attack, scent, etc.

 

[Mangoose]

Sweet, Spell Combat and Spellstrike (and arcana) all work on unarmed attacks. In fact there is a Hex feat that requires an unarmed strike. I'm not flurrying though, just grabbed two of Master of Many Styles for Pummeling and basically stuck with that monk 1d6 base fist damage haha. (The lack of crit range is the real crap thing, and that I don't get to play around wiht style strikes)

 

[Desiderius]

And then can’t cast anything or use spell-like abilities. And turning on and off “reject rage” is at least a standard action as well. Just a nightmare. Can’t share Stances, etc...

Inspiring Rage can get Lingering (can’t in Wrath) but Rage Powers don’t. Currently going Court Poet in attempt to avoid all this nonsense.

 

[Mangoose]

And then can’t cast anything or use spell-like abilities. And turning on and off “reject rage” is at least a standard action as well. Just a nightmare. Can’t share Stances, etc...

Inspiring Rage can get Lingering (can’t in Wrath) but Rage Powers don’t. Currently going Court Poet in attempt to avoid all this nonsense.

Isn't that the same as with a non-Urban Bloodrager? Well, besides that for some reason Court Poet lets you cast but not others.

 

[Efe]

court poet is like reverse-rage.
I guess he prohibits weapon attacks instead cos they are str based then?

 

[Desiderius]

I saw something that gave +2 DC on Transmutation Spells now can’t remember what it was. Any ideas?

 

[Desiderius]

court poet is like reverse-rage.
I guess he prohibits weapon attacks instead cos they are str based then?

I suspect it’s underrated since caster stats are harder to boost than physical ones.

 

[Mangoose]

Just found out that Jaethal is immune to fatigue, including Barbarian Rage lol.

I was gonna laugh if Holy Stigmata didn't work on her but it did. I could build her so OP if I wanted...

 

[Mangoose]

court poet is like reverse-rage.
I guess he prohibits weapon attacks instead cos they are str based then?

I suspect it’s underrated since caster stats are harder to boost than physical ones.

Eh, that cuts out all the hybrids too. The thing is that the proper answer should be Urban Skald, but Holic did it differently (everybody would be able to cast).

 

[Desiderius]

Yes it should trade the Will Saves for allowing casting but it doesn’t - discovered this after blowing a couple hours. Don’t know if bug or intended but not risking finding out.

Court Poet does allow pretty much everything as far as I can tell.

Edit: anything that allows casting probably goes against the whole spirit of the ability, as does the entire Bloodrager class for my money. If they wanted to do that they should have given them shouts and grunts instead of spells.

 

[Efe]

and does not prevent affected allies from using Intelligence-, Dexterity-, or Charisma-based skills

it does not mention concentration so probably still cant cast?

 

[Mangoose]

Yes it should trade the Will Saves for allowing casting but it doesn’t - discovered this after blowing a couple hours. Don’t know if bug or intended but not risking finding out.

I think intentional. Too busy to boot up game but when I was trying to figure out what was going on, the tooltip for Rage for the Urban Skald allowed you to cast spells but nobody else. Pretty sure it's not a typo. I wouldn't risk his wrath either.

Court Poet does allow pretty much everything as far as I can tell

Besides that, you can still play another Skald and use "Reject Rage" on your casters (which Holic intentionally added a long while ago apparently). I don't know how parties handle it in PNP - maybe they decide to have a skald and build accordingly - but I know they're pretty popular. One person explained that it's the jack-of-all-trades Bard done right. That is, with a sprinkling of new mechanic on top, yet still staying no better than a "jack." Focus is still on the song, in other words lol. Also, besides sharing Rage Powers, Spell Kenning is pretty cool. Very easy to keep track of... Granted, I am biased towards mechanics that are non-clunky in game so I dunno how big a deal things are on the table.

Anyways, I was playing around with unarmed + spellstrike and/or spell combat. It works. However, I picked a Monk archetype that didn't have Flurry - you can't spell combat with flurry in the rules, and I was too lazy to experiment so I just went with Master of Many Styles. Second reason I went for Master is because Pummeling Charge finally gives me a pounce (Pummeling Bully is surprisingly scary). I decided to go Dragon with my other style for MoMS. Besides those really nice ignore-prereq bonus feats, my unarmed damage is 1d6 instead of 1d4 bc I dipped Monk lol. But I found out that you can enchant your fists with your arcane pool just like any other weapon, so the only disadvantage of unarmed is its lack of crit range.

Dragon I assume is smartest since I'm down one attack compared to normal bc no flurry... Thus the answer: Find the ones that hit hardest but hit less. Dragon! Lol.

OKay I just remembered... I need a second covert ops unit to partner with Nok-Nok, get into stealthy positions (aka hiding in the flanks) before fights. Oh, yes, this works. But.. who else to use. Ekun is not a choice because he's just depressing lol. Jubilost not an option because he's way too useful as artillery. I could do Octavia.

But...Ninja Linzi may work (the irony is that I have NokNok as an Eldritch Scoundrel, so he's the mage between the two if she goes Ninja..)

 

[Desiderius]

Bard is the jack-of-all trades Bard done right. Bard buffs the whole party, Skald half.

Holic's right.

 

[Mangoose]

Bard is the jack-of-all trades Bard done right. Bard buffs the whole party, Skald half.

Holic's right.

Well that's the same thing with all Rages. You can't cast if you Rage, so if you're sharing that obviously they're going to get the same Rage you get.

However, Urban Skald on PNP lets teammates cast while in Rage as an Urban Skald would.

Here's the PNP description:

... The controlled inspired rage grants no bonus on Will saves, imposes no penalties to AC, and does not prevent affected allies from using Intelligence-, Dexterity-, or Charisma-based skills. This alters inspired rage."

Urban Skald in PFK IIRC tooltip adds explicitly that the Urban Skald himself can cast, and that it still "does prevents affect allies from using.. etc. etc."

The point is that the Skald is jacks-of-all-trades with some flavor (Kenning and Rage sharing).. but those "flavors" are still jack-of-the-trade-level. TBH in PNP it seems everybody plays either Archaeologist or Arcane Duelist for Bard.

Secondly, buffing the party is not the definition of jack-of-all-trades. Technically the Bard song is the non-jack-of-all-trades for the Bard because nobody else uses that trade lol.

Check out Evangelist Cleric. Comes with Fascinate. Lol I never knew how important Will saves are until I ran around just with Fascinate. Tfw Jubi no will save bomb.

 

[Mangoose]

Besides, if Bards are best at Bard Song, that means they are the master of Bard Song. Skalds' song instead would be a weaker jack-of-all-trades mechanic





Edit: Checking out the Ninja now... Damnit I want my Card Caster + Staff Magus. Or Dart Caster. As close to Gambit as I can get lol.