Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Max Damage]

From what I've read of Sawyer's posts, he won't learn or just pretend being clueless regardless because he does not like or understand what people liked about Infinity Engine cRPGs. Giving Bethesda a pass while arguing for purity of Sawyer's failure is hysterical and more clueless that anything maestro himself ever done, not that getting your panties in a twist because people enjoy their games different way isn't autistic in first place, of course.

 

[LannTheStupid]

And even if you do care, Sawyer knows he failed. He admitted it himself.

IIRC, he did it after the failure of sales of Pillars II in general and in comparison to Kingmaker in particular. I think it means that to change someone's point of view a lot of persuastion is required. I don't like the idea of next several Pillars games that could have been made and released just because of mod support, so on Nexus there would be a "Pillars starting pack" that changes them to D&D.

All a mod would do is rub salt in his wound by showing him how it could be done better if he wasn't such an autistic retard.

I am not sure it would have worked this way.

people enjoy their games different way

All the games should be denuvoed from the start and forever!

 

[Xamenos]

I don't like the idea of next several Pillars games that could have been made and released just because of mod support, so on Nexus there would be a "Pillars starting pack" that changes them to D&D.

And yet you said you don't mind Bethesda games being modded because they have mod support. Which one is it?

 

[LannTheStupid]

And yet you said you don't mind Bethesda games being modded because they have mod support. Which one is it?

I don't think there is anything worth protecting in Bethesda games. They're not creating a vision; they're creating a "Lego" (I have never had Lego, though, so I do not understand those references). Sawyer had his vision, and I respect this fact, thus I think this vision is to be preserved and either accepted as a whole or rejected totally. Which seems to happen to Pillars.

It seems Mishulin had his vision, too, at least regarding RtwP vs. TB, but with the turn based mod he caved. May be it is for the better; I, personally, have doubts.

 

[Cryomancer]

Sawyer knows he failed. He admitted it himself.

He failed on making an great CRPG but did a amazing job showing that there is demand for a CRPG and if wasn't by him, we probably would't have pathfinder.

All the games should be denuvoed from the start and forever!

That is nonsensical. Mods are great.

Are you in favor of banning modifications on cars and guns too?

 

[Max Damage]

They're not creating a vision; they're creating a "Lego" (I have never had Lego, though, so I do not understand those references). Sawyer had his vision, and I respect this fact, thus I think this vision is to be preserved and either accepted as a whole or rejected totally.

You're talking out of your ass, because while folks at Bethesda are aware of modding community, they do jack shit at actually providing tools of value for it. You're arbitrarily assigning some "vision" value because you're operating under delusion that video games are some sort of high art - they are not, by definition they can't be. Whether you respect something or not has jack shit to do with purpose of digital entertainment. You have to be either socially or mentally retarded to not understand tinkering on user's side, be it video games or anything else.

 

[NJClaw]

Sawyer had his vision, and I respect this fact, thus I think this vision is to be preserved and either accepted as a whole or rejected totally.

The original product remains the same regardless of anyone using or not using mods. If that product has any kind of merit, people will still be able to enjoy it in its pure form, respectful of the author's vision.

Building on the original game, the addition of mods creates a new product, which is the expression of the vision of a community whose needs are only partially met by the original game.

You keep repeating that the author's vision needs to be preserved, but I fail to understand two things:
- why and how does the addition of mods damage the preservation of the original vision? The unmodded game is still there and always will be (at least until digital stores keep working as expected). If the author modifies his game after a mod pops up, then his vision wasn't genuine to begin with.
- why shouldn't the vision of the community and modders be worthy of seeing the light and being experienced? Modders are authors with a vision (some more than others, but still), and if their mods become popular it means that the public appreciates their vision. Why are you so passionate about defending the "corporate" vision and don't care at all about the one expressed by the community?

 

[Pink Eye]

>they are not, by definition they can't be
Video games *are* art. As is demonstrated by Ravenloft:

How can you listen to something so beautiful and not consider it art?

 

[Max Damage]

Music =/= whole video games. Some of my favorite tracks are from video games, but everyone plays and experiences them differently, especially RPGs. Notice I said high art in that post - to qualify for being one media cannot be interactive entertainment by definition.

 

[LannTheStupid]

How can you listen to something so beautiful and not consider it art?

Then modding is what - collective art creation? Like, "Sunflowers" by Van Gogh hangs in a gallery, near the painting there is a table with paints and brushes, and the community of gallery goers add their own bits and pieces?

An interesting idea, but I heard that museums for some reason use bullet proof glass instead.

 

[Pink Eye]

Music =/= whole video games. Some of my favorite tracks are from video games, but everyone plays and experiences them differently, especially RPGs. Notice I said high art in that post - to qualify for being one media cannot be interactive entertainment by definition.

I don't know what high art entails in this specific context, but I assure you. Music isn't the only thing that can make a digital media captivating. I only shared that specific track because I hold it very dear. Anyways. Since you've opened this box of tricks, I want you to explain to me in layman terms why you don't consider video games art. Some of *the* most gorgeous art can be found in video games. Hell, level design in of itself can be considered an art form too.

 

[Cryomancer]

Video games *are* art. As is demonstrated by Ravenloft:

Games aren't art, they can CONTAIN art(music, animation, etc) but the "ludic" part of the game is not art.

Then modding is what - collective art creation?

Modding like the name say is modifying something. Pick the Gothic 3 for example, without the community path, the game is unplayable. And on Gothic 2, you have returning, a overall mod and the alternative balancing, a mod for a mod. Mods are a great way to make something great even better or to fix problems with a specific game.

 

[NJClaw]

How can you listen to something so beautiful and not consider it art?

Then modding is what - collective art creation? Like, "Sunflowers" by Van Gogh hangs in a gallery, near the painting there is a table with paints and brushes, and the community of gallery goers add their own bits and pieces?

An interesting idea, but I heard that museums for some reason use bullet proof glass instead.

This would make a lot of sense in a universe where publishing a mod changes forever the original game. However, this doesn't happen in the universe where this website is hosted. Mods for Kingmaker exist, yet everyone can still buy, download, and play the original game.

And "collective art creation" is what art is: artists take inspiration from other artists' works of art all the time. It's almost as if you can take something produced by someone else and use it to express yourself and your "vision":

Just like with mods, you know?

 

[Pink Eye]

>Games aren't art, they can CONTAIN art(music, animation, etc)
>but the "ludic" part of the game is not art.
My dear poster. What you've posted is complete nonsense. I am utterly flabbergasted by your comments. I don't even know how to respond to such a post.

 

[Max Damage]

How can you listen to something so beautiful and not consider it art?

Then modding is what - collective art creation? Like, "Sunflowers" by Van Gogh hangs in a gallery, near the painting there is a table with paints and brushes, and the community of gallery goers add their own bits and pieces?

An interesting idea, but I heard that museums for some reason use bullet proof glass instead.

Last time I was at art exhibition, I mysteriously didn't find Pillars of Eternity or any other video game behind the glass. Could it be because, I don't know, video games are sold as mass consumption entertainment? Sometimes with extensive modding tools and level editors even, like Warcraft 3? Those damn gamers sure wield terrible power of bullying developers by devaluing their priceless art with optional alterations, I say what!

>Games aren't art, they can CONTAIN art(music, animation, etc)
>but the "ludic" part of the game is not art.
My dear poster. What you've posted is complete nonsense. I am utterly flabbergasted by your comments. I don't even know how to respond to such a post.

It looks like you didn't really read or understand, and are confusing art with quality while failing to grasp while all this talk is about in first place. Please chill and read the previous posts to get the context.

 

[Delterius]

Could it be because, I don't know, video games are sold as mass consumption entertainment?

Do you unironically believe that the only High Art being produced today is the most arcane and niche forms of furry porn? Because that's about the only thing that conforms to the old channels for art production.

If a videogame stands the test of time and is remembered decades if not centuries after its making due to whatever aspects of its craft, then its worth a moniker of sorts. Call it an artifact or not, it doesn't matter. Most of videogaming isn't art, just as most of writing, photography, music, painting and carving is buried under the sands.

 

[Max Damage]

Could it be because, I don't know, video games are sold as mass consumption entertainment?

Do you unironically believe that the only High Art being produced today is the most arcane and niche forms of furry porn? Because that's about the only thing that conforms to the old channels for art production.

If a videogame stands the test of time and is remembered decades if not centuries after its making due to whatever aspects of its craft, then its art. Most of videogaming isn't art, just as most of writing, photography, music, painting and statuemaking is buried under the sands.

That's probably a take some of the furries share, I can't confirm myself. Pretty sure you're omitting a lot of other qualifiers in favor of personal sex fantasies as well Whether a game stands a test of time or not speaks of its qualities as video game, but doesn't move it outside of its designation of being one - Big Rigs, Bubsy 3D, Cheetahmen are all still video games, just pretty crappy ones because they fail at their purpose for various reasons.

 

[Delterius]

Could it be because, I don't know, video games are sold as mass consumption entertainment?

Do you unironically believe that the only High Art being produced today is the most arcane and niche forms of furry porn? Because that's about the only thing that conforms to the old channels for art production.

If a videogame stands the test of time and is remembered decades if not centuries after its making due to whatever aspects of its craft, then its art. Most of videogaming isn't art, just as most of writing, photography, music, painting and statuemaking is buried under the sands.

That's probably a take some of the furries share, I can't confirm myself. Pretty sure you're omitting a lot of other qualifiers in favor of personal sex fantasies as well

My point is that we live in a world where everything can be sold to a lot of people, right? And so it will be. That includes high art. If anything that includes especially high art, as entire countries base their economy selling the opportunity to, say, have a glimpse of the mona lisa to a mass audience of millions. A fish doesn't get to live below water and complain that everything is wet. A fat man doesn't get to eat takeout every day and decry the corporate capitalism of Big Diet.

What's important is what is true today as in the past: not everything is worth remembering. The mona lisa was. So a cult can be formed around it. The hypothetical cunta lisa, a piece furry art that Leonardo created to make ends meet was not. We show people the statues of roman gods. We also hide scores of roman dildos as no proper narrative can be formed around them beyond that romans were always very horny on main. You can't apply for a government grant on that. Not every poem got the opportunity to burn in Alexandria. As far as videogames should be concerned the jury is still out. What are the games that will be remembered by the people of 2050? What about 2250? Maybe it will be the GOTY 2012. Wouldn't that suck? But maybe it will be the cult classic we adore. And maybe it will be something else completely overlooked that speaks to the people of the 23rd century. Sadly, maybe, it will be nothing whatsoever.

 

[Pink Eye]

Could it be because, I don't know, video games are sold as mass consumption entertainment?

Do you unironically believe that the only High Art being produced today is the most arcane and niche forms of furry porn? Because that's about the only thing that conforms to the old channels for art production. Indeed, togepi 1125 is the truest of mycenae. 'Not for mass consumption' is the least we can say about the abominations he commissions.

If a videogame stands the test of time and is remembered decades if not centuries after its making due to whatever aspects of its craft, then its worth a moniker of sorts. Call it an artifact or not, it doesn't matter. Most of videogaming isn't art, just as most of writing, photography, music, painting and carving is buried under the sands.

Art is in the eye of the beholder, indeed. I consider my favorite video games to be masterpieces that survived the tests of time - subjective, yes; but welcome to the medium in which we partake in! It always stroked me a merry whenever people will start telling me how this or that can't be art. Or how that's art instead. Then they'll start creating their silly definitions of what they think constitutes as beauty. There's a word for that, pretentious.

 

[Max Damage]

While I mostly agree with all of that, it has fuck all to do with modding vs "artistic intent". Lann is arbitrarily treating some games like they're originals of Mona Lisa and should be "respected" by not getting altered, while everyone esle is laughing at retards like him. Please, at least read the thread before reporting your closet furry problems

 

[Delterius]

Last time I was at art exhibition, I mysteriously didn't find Pillars of Eternity or any other video game behind the glass. Could it be because, I don't know, video games are sold as mass consumption entertainment?

And this is still wrong. The fact that a game can be modded doesn't increase or diminish its status as an artifact. The fact that something can or is sold to a mass audience is immaterial to its status as a piece of art. It is literally one of the few wrong arguments you can make towards Lann's position. Just calling him anal would make for a better post.

Please, at least read the thread before reporting your closet furry problems

wow i found the long lost cunta lisa

 

[Max Damage]

Why are you getting hang on the "mass" part of entertainment? How does it strenghten his position when it doesn't make sense? All of his statements are incoherent butthurt about people enjoying games they bought the "wrong way".

 

[Pink Eye]

The conversation is no longer about Lann's ramblings. The discussion is now focused on you saying,"Video Games aren't art".

 

[Max Damage]

The conversation is no longer about Lann's ramblings. The discussion is now focused on you saying,"Video Games aren't art".

I said that they are not high art, yes. As such, nothing about modding video games is wrong, irrational, or devaluing the original intent.

 

[Efe]

I said that they are not high art, yes.

here's a word for that, pretentious.