Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Max Damage]

Pretentious is claiming that modding video games is wrong and getting butthurt that people make distinction between your mass produced toy and actual irreplaceable original crafts that were made with the opposite intent

 

[Pink Eye]

By that hand, I don't consider pen and paper to be art. They're just mass produced toys for market consumption. Woe is me!

 

[Max Damage]

By that hand, I don't consider pen and paper to be art. They're just mass produced toys for market consumption. Woe is me!

I'm glad you finally understand.

 

[Pink Eye]

By the name of Saint Joseph! That wasn't my point.

 

[Max Damage]

Then maybe you should actually read up on high art, its history and examples, because by this point you're lashing out aimlessly at reality. FATAL and D&D are both P&P, one is bad, other is good (or at least better), neither is high art regardless of their success at being P&P. I'm tired of explaining the obvious, peace.

 

[Delterius]

D&D is high art

 

[Pink Eye]

Lashing? What? Since when did you get that impression? In any case, I'm going to go enjoy some high art video games.

 

[Xamenos]

How can you listen to something so beautiful and not consider it art?

Then modding is what - collective art creation? Like, "Sunflowers" by Van Gogh hangs in a gallery, near the painting there is a table with paints and brushes, and the community of gallery goers add their own bits and pieces?

An interesting idea, but I heard that museums for some reason use bullet proof glass instead.

What the actual fuck? Defacing a Van Gogh DESTROYS the original. Modding doesn't. The original is still there for anyone who prefers it. Modding is the equivalent of me printing a copy of a painting in an A4 and painting over it with crayons. Who the fuck cares I'm wasting paint and paper?

made with the opposite intent

What was that intent, and why does it not apply to any videogame ever made? Didn't the artists of your "High Art" want to make money? Michelangelo was fabulously paid for his work, does this make him not a n artist in your eyes too?

 

[Desiderius]

D&D is high art

Obviously

 

[Desiderius]

How can you listen to something so beautiful and not consider it art?

Then modding is what - collective art creation? Like, "Sunflowers" by Van Gogh hangs in a gallery, near the painting there is a table with paints and brushes, and the community of gallery goers add their own bits and pieces?

An interesting idea, but I heard that museums for some reason use bullet proof glass instead.

What the actual fuck? Defacing a Van Gogh DESTROYS the original. Modding doesn't. The original is still there for anyone who prefers it. Modding is the equivalent of me printing a copy of a painting in an A4 and painting over it with crayons. Who the fuck cares I'm wasting paint and paper?

made with the opposite intent

What was that intent, and why does it not apply to any videogame ever made? Didn't the artists of your "High Art" want to make money? Michelangelo was fabulously paid for his work, does this make him not a n artist in your eyes too?

It’s destroying it for you, which is all that matters for you. Don’t mod until you’ve gained a full appreciation for the original and understand the artist’s vision for how the game is intended to be played.

For your own sake.

 

[LannTheStupid]

First, my personal thanks to all participants for focusing my mind. Now I think I understand the subject better.

Second, I have this kind of scale.

1. An ideal game is a console exclusive without ports. Demon's Souls, Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Bloodborne. The player has only one, certified and approved, way of having fun. You take it or you leave it. There is only one variant of the game. Emulators might dilute that, but I have not heard (yet) of Zelda content mods. I know that the resolution was upped on PC emulators, though.

2. The worst game possible is Skyrim and the likes. There is even a whole game made using just Skyrim and mods - Enderal. Disgusting abomination.

3. The rest is somwehere in-between. My personal border lies near the first Pillars and Kingmaker; Wrath promises to be too moddable, but I will have to live with that.

If someone would argue about player's freedoms, TIMTOWDI and other liberal stuff - check the location in my signature. Remember: freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I don't think video-games in general are art. But they're games first and foremost. The gameplay is primary and the art is secondary, being there to enhance and influence your experience while playing the game. You can have a game without any art. Art just happens to be a component of a video game.

 

[Nikanuur]

The sheer size behind this game tho! I thought I'm nearing the end at the 12th level. I've just found out that I myself failed at the Perception DC 5 to spot the map size. About 365x by now. How is it so big?! So many parts of the land undiscovered yet.

 

[Xamenos]

It’s destroying it for you, which is all that matters for you. Don’t mod until you’ve gained a full appreciation for the original and understand the artist’s vision for how the game is intended to be played.

For your own sake.

I don't really like mods either, I haven't even tried CotW yet. But I don't give a fuck about the artist's vision or how someone else plays the game. They can destroy it all they want as long as it doesn't affect me.

 

[Desiderius]

It does effect you.

 

[Xamenos]

How?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The main point to playing a game unmodded first is to understand what you're dealing with. When dining, one should pick up their fork prior to reaching for the salt shaker. Once that's established, it just comes down to preference. To each their own.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't think video-games in general are art. But they're games first and foremost. The gameplay is primary and the art is secondary, being there to enhance and influence your experience while playing the game. You can have a game without any art. Art just happens to be a component of a video game.

Art is play.

 

[Desiderius]

The main point to playing a game unmodded first is to understand what you're dealing with. When dining, one should pick up their fork prior to reaching for the salt shaker. Once that's established, it just comes down to preference. To each their own.

It’s not their own.

 

[Desiderius]

Biggest effect (note spelling) is influencers shaping expectations of how people experience the game. If the best abdicate that duty the worst will fill the vacuum with their shitty experiences that were caused by them limiting themselves to their pre-existing expectations and butchering the game to fit them.

Great art is great because unexpected.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Desiderius I'm not sure I understand your meaning. We appear to be in agreement that modifying a game should only come after playing it as created first.

 

[Desiderius]

The sheer size behind this game tho! I thought I'm nearing the end at the 12th level. I've just found out that I myself failed at the Perception DC 5 to spot the map size. About 365x by now. How is it so big?! So many parts of the land undiscovered yet.

They do kind of run out of gas filling in the second half.

That’s what I’m looking forward to in future mods.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius I'm not sure I understand your meaning. We appear to be in agreement that modifying a game should only come after playing it as created first.

Once you modify it meaningfully it’s a different game, as is understood to be the case with the great Civ mods that go by their own names. The author owns the original. It is literally his own, not each’s.

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't think video-games in general are art. But they're games first and foremost. The gameplay is primary and the art is secondary, being there to enhance and influence your experience while playing the game. You can have a game without any art. Art just happens to be a component of a video game.

>I don't think video-games in general are art.
>Art just happens to be a component of a video game
>You can have a game without any art
Pong isn't art, I agree. There isn't enough substance to it. I certainly don't derive any provocative emotions from it. Most certainly not. However, Ravenloft: Stone Prophet does have artistic merit to it. As there is more substance to be found in it than Pong. From the awe inspiring music:

Spoiler

To the beautifully drawn artwork:

Spoiler

Hell, even its dungeon design can be considered an art form - they sure as shit don't make them like this anymore:

Spoiler

Ravenloft is one of my favorite games that I adore. While it won't be shown in any *high brow* art exhibits. It and many other of my favorite games will always hold a special place in my heart. I will remember these games fondly in the future. Speak of them. Praise them whenever I can. To me. For something to be art, it has to transcend its medium. To have an everlasting impact on you. Which, Age of Decadence, Ravenloft, and even Bloodlines. Have surely done.

While you say that video games can't be art. We live in a society where this can be: https://news.artnet.com/market/maurizio-cattelan-banana-art-basel-miami-beach-1722516

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Pong isn't art, I agree. There isn't enough substance to it. I certainly don't derive any provocative emotions from it. Most certainly not. However, Ravenloft: Stone Prophet does have artistic merit to it. As there is more substance to be found in it than Pong. From the awe inspiring music:

Hell, even its dungeon design can be considered an art form - they sure as shit don't make them like this anymore:

Ravenloft is one of my favorite games that I adore. While it won't be shown in any *high brow* art exhibits. It and many other of my favorite games will always hold a special place in my heart. I will remember these games fondly in the future. Speak of them. Praise them whenever I can. To me. For something to be art, it has to transcend its medium. To have an everlasting impact on you. Which, Age of Decadence, Ravenloft, and even Bloodlines. Have surely done.

Ravenloft does have a lot of elements that have good artistic value. But in the same way MTG has a lot of nice artwork in its cards. Though someone could use the pictures on each card or the lore as art themselves, MTG itself is not art. One can ommit the lore from the cards and all the pictures while keeping only the text pertinent to the ruleset and still have the card game. Art is one of the features and often part of the selling point. But it's not the purpose of MTG either. In this way, Ravenloft has art as one of it's components. Video games in general can lead to confusion because of how necessary some of the artistic elements is in this form of game are related to how you interact with the game whereas you can play MTG regardless of whether or not there is an art or lore. The art contained in a video game is a part of the appeal of video games. You could definitely ommit all of the art and do a texted based game and describe all the movement through a dungeon, the shape of the environment a character is moving through, etc. as essentially technical documents together with the ruleset and still have the game though it would not be as appealing.

While you say that video games can't be art. We live in a society where this can be: https://news.artnet.com/market/maurizio-cattelan-banana-art-basel-miami-beach-1722516

[/QUOTE]
There are also people who would say that this or other things along this line cannot be art. If this is art, then everything is art. A rock that tumbles down a hill and lands in a certain place is art. A fart is art. What you see in a deep cave with no light is art. Then there is no point using the word art since it doesn't really describe anything meaningful if it describes absolutely everything. You might as well just said, "this is a thing" instead of "this is art." Calling this type of thing "art" seems more like the abuse of the word "art" and people who do this type of thing or partake in it are just sniffing their own farts.