Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[The_Mask]

I thought it was Pillars of Eternity that pioneered the whole hyper text thingy during dialogue.

ToEE. Mostly for mechanics.

 

[The_Mask]

I like how he mentions Patches from Dark Souls, like everyone played Dark Souls.

 

[Desiderius]

Video games are art. Just like with everything else there is good art, bad art and trash art.

Anybody who says the writing sux or is just woke is talking out of their ass.

 

[LannTheStupid]

A chessboard and pieces may contain artistic embellishment in their presentation, but are as a whole, ultimately a game.

What about The Opera Game?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Xamenos Media created to express or represent an aesthetic, sentiment, or ideal. Due to it being an expression or representation, the observer cannot influence it.

Michelangelo's Sistene Chapel paintings are art because they are primarily aesthetic and sentimental, rather than literal record. Despite both being sculptures, the Jefferson Memorial Statue is a commemorative monument, while The Thinking Man is art. Ceremonial armor is art because its only purpose is aesthetic and not to functionally protect. Ancient weapons and armor adorning a room might serve as decoration, but are not art because they were created with primary purpose other than to express an aesthetic, sentiment, or ideal. This does not mean that tools or other objects cannot have art imposed or incorporated upon them.

Your definition appears to exclude stories and books. Is this deliberate, or am I misreading it? And I can see the distinction that "the observer cannot influence it" as something arbitrary, tacked on only so you can exclude games, the interactive art for no good reason. I feel that if we were having this conversation a hundred years ago you'd be claiming art was static just so you could exclude movies.

I make the distinction that the user cannot influence the subject, because otherwise it ceases to be an expression since the media experienced is a reflection of user choice or ability--even if totally random or arbitrary. If I give you a sculpture of stylized horse, I am giving you art. If I give you a semi-formed lump of clay to shape in accordance with conditions I define, I am merely giving you clay. No aesthetic, sentiment, nor ideal is being expressed. A video game is just a different sort of "clay" with different limitations. It becomes more akin to a puzzle. It becomes object oriented. Fail states are necessary for a game to be a game. If one can enter a "fail state" with art, then the actual expression or representation is never presented. If it can't be observed, it definitely isn't media, which means it is not art. If there are no fail states, then there is no object, and hence no game.

It's a difficult point to explain concisely. Stated differently, If a user can modify the outcome of art, then it reflects the user. If it reflects the user, it's subjective, arbitrary, and not an expression. It can't even be an expression by the user, because the potential outcomes are constrained by the original creator. It is instead a selection. Combine that with fail states mentioned above, and it becomes difficult to argue a game is or can be art. Contain art? Absolutely. Be art, as a whole? No.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

It's a difficult point to explain concisely. Stated differently, If a user can modify the outcome of art, then it reflects the user. If it reflects the user, it's subjective, arbitrary, and not an expression. It can't even be an expression by the user, because the potential outcomes are constrained by the original creator. It's a selection, not an expression. It is unoriginal. Combine that with fail states mentioned above, and it becomes difficult to argue a game is or can be art. Contain art? Absolutely. Be art, as a whole? No.

If the potential outcome is constrained by the creator, is the end result no longer a product of the creator? And if the outcome is "selected" by the user, as you put it, how different is that from a viewer interpreting art by his perceptions?

 

[Xamenos]

It's a difficult point to explain concisely. Stated differently, If a user can modify the outcome of art, then it reflects the user. If it reflects the user, it's subjective, arbitrary, and not an expression. It can't even be an expression by the user, because the potential outcomes are constrained by the original creator. It is instead a selection. Combine that with fail states mentioned above, and it becomes difficult to argue a game is or can be art. Contain art? Absolutely. Be art, as a whole? No.

Then Myst is art. There are no choices, the user cannot modify the outcome. There is only a single path forward, just like in a movie. And if you think it is not art because the player can fail at a puzzle and not see all of the game, then a movie is not art because the user can stop in the middle and and not see all of it. We go back to "art is static" as an argument, which it patently isn't.

But other than that, what ERYFKRAD said. Art is already open to interpretation.

 

[Nikanuur]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

 

[Xamenos]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

Most of it is handed out by artisans or found behind tough enemies in side locations. You don't find the good shit randomly in hidden barrels.

And perception 20 at L12 isn't that great, especially if you only have one character with it maxed.

 

[Nikanuur]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

Most of it is handed out by artisans or found behind tough enemies in side locations. You don't find the good shit randomly in hidden barrels.

And perception 20 at L12 isn't that great, especially if you only have one character with it maxed.

Hmm, I did fight many tough enemies, but it's true I've been kinda neglecting the minor tasks of the kingdom. Artisans included. And Perception 20 isn't good you say? o.O uaaaa How? I put points to every class-based skill in all classes. Without items / buffs, there's not much more then 20-23 to be had this way.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Could you possibly elaborate on which artisan makes the bows please?

 

[ferratilis]

Based reddit defending the superior gameplay mode

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/nhtfq5/pathfinder_kingmaker_review_mandaloregaming/

 

[Xamenos]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

Most of it is handed out by artisans or found behind tough enemies in side locations. You don't find the good shit randomly in hidden barrels.

And perception 20 at L12 isn't that great, especially if you only have one character with it maxed.

Hmm, I did fight many tough enemies, but it's true I've been kinda neglecting the minor tasks of the kingdom. Artisans included. And Perception 20 isn't good you say? o.O uaaaa
Anyway, thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate on which artisan makes the bows?

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Artisans

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Based reddit defending the superior gameplay mode

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/nhtfq5/pathfinder_kingmaker_review_mandaloregaming/

And after conversation like this, local dummies on Codex have audacity to think they are better than Reddit users and their tastes are unique and superior.
Nah, you people just another flavor of dumb herd of parrots that hostile to everyone who have different tastes (look at this upvote/downvote, lol, and all this for asking a question) while inventing fairy tales to back up your shitty opinions.
Holy shit, even dumb argument "turn-based in PnP cuz limitations" is here, pure classic.

 

[Nikanuur]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

Most of it is handed out by artisans or found behind tough enemies in side locations. You don't find the good shit randomly in hidden barrels.

And perception 20 at L12 isn't that great, especially if you only have one character with it maxed.

Hmm, I did fight many tough enemies, but it's true I've been kinda neglecting the minor tasks of the kingdom. Artisans included. And Perception 20 isn't good you say? o.O uaaaa
Anyway, thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate on which artisan makes the bows?

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Artisans

Sillly me :D thank you.

 

[Desiderius]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

Most of it is handed out by artisans or found behind tough enemies in side locations. You don't find the good shit randomly in hidden barrels.

And perception 20 at L12 isn't that great, especially if you only have one character with it maxed.

Hmm, I did fight many tough enemies, but it's true I've been kinda neglecting the minor tasks of the kingdom. Artisans included. And Perception 20 isn't good you say? o.O uaaaa
Anyway, thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate on which artisan makes the bows?

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Artisans

Sillly me :D thank you.

Most people had the same problem. Early influencers saying “Kingdom management suxxors” -> influenced missing out on best in class itemization.

 

[Desiderius]

Xamenos Media created to express or represent an aesthetic, sentiment, or ideal. Due to it being an expression or representation, the observer cannot influence it.

Michelangelo's Sistene Chapel paintings are art because they are primarily aesthetic and sentimental, rather than literal record. Despite both being sculptures, the Jefferson Memorial Statue is a commemorative monument, while The Thinking Man is art. Ceremonial armor is art because its only purpose is aesthetic and not to functionally protect. Ancient weapons and armor adorning a room might serve as decoration, but are not art because they were created with primary purpose other than to express an aesthetic, sentiment, or ideal. This does not mean that tools or other objects cannot have art imposed or incorporated upon them.

Your definition appears to exclude stories and books. Is this deliberate, or am I misreading it? And I can see the distinction that "the observer cannot influence it" as something arbitrary, tacked on only so you can exclude games, the interactive art for no good reason. I feel that if we were having this conversation a hundred years ago you'd be claiming art was static just so you could exclude movies.

I make the distinction that the user cannot influence the subject, because otherwise it ceases to be an expression since the media experienced is a reflection of user choice or ability--even if totally random or arbitrary. If I give you a sculpture of stylized horse, I am giving you art. If I give you a semi-formed lump of clay to shape in accordance with conditions I define, I am merely giving you clay. No aesthetic, sentiment, nor ideal is being expressed. A video game is just a different sort of "clay" with different limitations. It becomes more akin to a puzzle. It becomes object oriented. Fail states are necessary for a game to be a game. If one can enter a "fail state" with art, then the actual expression or representation is never presented. If it can't be observed, it definitely isn't media, which means it is not art. If there are no fail states, then there is no object, and hence no game.

It's a difficult point to explain concisely. Stated differently, If a user can modify the outcome of art, then it reflects the user. If it reflects the user, it's subjective, arbitrary, and not an expression. It can't even be an expression by the user, because the potential outcomes are constrained by the original creator. It is instead a selection. Combine that with fail states mentioned above, and it becomes difficult to argue a game is or can be art. Contain art? Absolutely. Be art, as a whole? No.

None of this works with any of the performing arts.

 

[Desiderius]

It's a difficult point to explain concisely. Stated differently, If a user can modify the outcome of art, then it reflects the user. If it reflects the user, it's subjective, arbitrary, and not an expression. It can't even be an expression by the user, because the potential outcomes are constrained by the original creator. It is instead a selection. Combine that with fail states mentioned above, and it becomes difficult to argue a game is or can be art. Contain art? Absolutely. Be art, as a whole? No.

Then Myst is art. There are no choices, the user cannot modify the outcome. There is only a single path forward, just like in a movie. And if you think it is not art because the player can fail at a puzzle and not see all of the game, then a movie is not art because the user can stop in the middle and and not see all of it. We go back to "art is static" as an argument, which it patently isn't.

But other than that, what ERYFKRAD said. Art is already open to interpretation.

Feels like he’s pushing back against the Death of the Author bullshit which is the right direction to push. But yeah death of the reader isn’t much better.

 

[Xamenos]

Feels like he’s pushing back against the Death of the Author bullshit which is the right direction to push. But yeah death of the reader isn’t much better.

I feel like it's just a knee-jerk "old thing art, new thing not art", but I'll have to hand it to him if he's really pushing against death of the author. Death of the author is cancer and all the post-modernist shitheads who're peddling this shit deserve to die of cancer.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Artisans may produce the best items in the game, but there are other good items that can be found.

If one wants spoilers and does not like exploring (why, though?) one can check here: Kingmaker Unique Items Locations.

 

[Yosharian]

Hey guys, what's the deal with (not)finding the really good weapons? I mean, I am at the 12th level and around finishing the Varnhold main quest (at least I think I am about to). I'd say this fairly into the game, no? And most of I find except normal +1 and +2 weapons are some obscure legendaries I mostly don't need nor wish to use. The generaly most used cathegories (2H Swords, 2H Axes, Bows) are lacking severely. Always something like +1 Bow of Bark Skin or some such nonsense.

For example, whereas I do have a great bow - Devourer of Metal - I've been using it for half the game-time now without any chance of replacing it. I've looked at the weapons chart on the wiki, there's so many +2 to +5 cool weapons. I found a miniscule amount of these. Why? What am I missing with the perception around 20 without even being buffed and searching through *every* area meticulously?

Most of it is handed out by artisans or found behind tough enemies in side locations. You don't find the good shit randomly in hidden barrels.

And perception 20 at L12 isn't that great, especially if you only have one character with it maxed.

Hmm, I did fight many tough enemies, but it's true I've been kinda neglecting the minor tasks of the kingdom. Artisans included. And Perception 20 isn't good you say? o.O uaaaa
Anyway, thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate on which artisan makes the bows?

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Artisans

Sillly me :D thank you.

Just use the artisan database which has all the items and artisans in a spreadsheet

 

[Xamenos]

Just use the artisan database which has all the items and artisans in a spreadsheet

Do you mean the database linked in the beginning of the wiki article I posted?

 

[Nikanuur]

....Just use the artisan database which has all the items and artisans in a spreadsheet...

Yeah, he really did wrote it first. But thanks for replying anyway, trying to help is appreciated.

 

[Yosharian]

Just use the artisan database which has all the items and artisans in a spreadsheet

Do you mean the database linked in the beginning of the wiki article I posted?

Yeah that one

 

[Desiderius]

Artisans may produce the best items in the game, but there are other good items that can be found.

If one wants spoilers and does not like exploring (why, though?) one can check here: Kingmaker Unique Items Locations.

He already found the Bow tho.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s more fun to just focus on ranking up your kingdom and getting your regions and artisans set up and their quests done and seeing what turns up than using a spoiler.

North Narlmarches is the bow artisan. The Sweet Teeth will give you the Necklace earlier than you can find one.