Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Stavrophore]

Linzi is a bard -i haven't specced her as caster

So, let me get this straight, you're complaining that a character not specced as a caster isn't always effective as a caster? What's your point?

Yes, if you don't invest your character's resources into making him an effective caster, he won't be an effective caster.

There's nothing i can do to improve the DC

I don't generally buy equipment for my chars

i haven't specced her as caster,

I swear to God, I'm starting to think you're trolling me.

She's a bard not caster, i thought i will get something like in PoE where i can create custom chants. Nope, i get shitty spell making with chanting as a side note.
Im not going to invest by buying stuff i prefer to find my stuff looting instead of buying from merchants, and i usually play the RPGs in such way, unless the game specifically give me hints that its not an effective strategy -ie. like in underrail, where buying from merchants is pretty much mandatory to have effective char. Seems that pathfinder also want me to force buying stuff from traders. Also a thing that i didn't like in UR was the fact that you have to go to external wiki to learn what some effects do -PK exhibit same problem. Game should present the info inside game, not external wiki.

You are playing a D20 based system...
This applies to literally every DnD derived game that is not piss easy.

All im saying that the D20 gives huge randomness at the beginning of the game. I can understand that people who played this tabletop and are in late game doesn't mind it because they are accustomed to it.

 

[Desiderius]

Are you seriously asking that everything rolls over and dies just like that?

Getting serious for a moment.

An entire generation has been trained with exactly that expectation. This is the price of the great MMO dumbdown and the market expectations that produced it and other subsequent games.

We need to think more strategically about how we fix that. P:K is a throwback to the kinds of games we grew up on even if it is comically easier it's only easier if you approach it in the way that we grew up expecting, not the way they did.

Wrath extends that in every way while adding a comprehensive tutorial that helps the facerollers get a better taste of what we experienced.

Are there other games that also do this that we can encourage facerollers to try?

 

[Desiderius]

All im saying that the D20 gives huge randomness at the beginning of the game. I can understand that people who played this tabletop and are in late game doesn't mind it because they are accustomed to it.

I don't like to buy stuff from vendors either. You mostly don't need to. Would be a good idea to throw an Eagle's Splendor on her though or go to the East Kamelands before hitting the Troll Castle. If you're only level six there it is going to be harder that's for sure. Should be pretty easy to land a Demoralize on Kargadd and beat his Will Save with Harrim's Archon's Aura though.

That would put him at zero and you at 17. Hit him with Harrim's Touch of Chaos and he has to save twice, so that's a 24/25 chance to blind him given your current resources.

The way the action economy works in P:K Bards are either Singers and Casters or Singers and Fighters and sometimes all three. On normal you should be able to start eliminating the randomness as early as level three and getting to a sweet spot by level 7/8. Even on higher difficulties you can get there by level 12 at the latest.

I never played tabletop and had some of the same thoughts you did at first before getting some ideas from this forum and building on them. It is harder for casters but you do need them for some threats, such as one coming up for you soon.

 

[NJClaw]

She's a bard not caster

Usually, a "caster" in Pathfinder is just a character that can cast spells. You can have full casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid), half casters (Magus, Bard, Inquisitor), and casters that only have spells as a side hustle (Ranger, Paladin).

Anyway, I still don't understand your point. You're complaining that casters and spells are weak, and yet you haven't specialized your characters as casters. What did you expect? It's an RPG, you chose a role for your character and now you're complaining that she's not as effective in another role. Yeah, no shit.

 

[Yosharian]

The huge randomness of this game is killing any enjoyment. Yeah apply glitterdust they said. And onto another reload xD

https://imgur.com/a/6dLerSX

Shit system will be shit. It probably gets better in late game, where a D20 isnt a problem if you are rocking 60 AC, which only contribute like 1/4 of the total value.

Wait why is your spell DC only 15

 

[Stavrophore]

She's a bard not caster

Usually, a "caster" in Pathfinder is just a character that can cast spells. You can have full casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid), half casters (Magus, Bard, Inquisitor), and casters that only have spells as a side hustle (Ranger, Paladin).

Anyway, I still don't understand your point. You're complaining that casters and spells are weak, and yet you haven't specialized your characters as casters. What did you expect? It's an RPG, you chose a role for your character and now you're complaining that she's not as effective in another role. Yeah, no shit.

I just wanted a chanter, i do on levelups typical shenanigans like upping charisma, taking support spells, perks that increase efficiency of chants. So what i can do to increase the DC beside that?

 

[Yosharian]

Stavro thinks he's playing 5E or something

 

[NJClaw]

I just wanted a chanter, i do on levelups typical shenanigans like upping charisma, taking support spells, perks that increase efficiency of chants. So what i can do to increase the DC beside that?

Take (Greater) Spell Focus and boost your Charisma with either an item or Eagle's Splendor. That's already +20% to your chance of landing your spells.

On Linzi you probably don't want Spell Focus (Conjuration) though, so you should focus on Enchantment spells, leaving Glitterdust to a full caster (Octavia or even a mercenary).

 

[Desiderius]

Of course on that one particular foe you can kill him just by carefully reading the dialogue, no save or AC beating required.

 

[Yosharian]

To be fair I guess you're using Linzi? Her starting CHA is pretty bad for a Bard. So you can't get 18 base CHA until level 8. Normally you'd have at least 22 CHA (+6) then +2 from feats. So 11 + 8 = 19 DC on Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Or 20 DC Cacophonous Call

 

[Average Manatee]

You're still hiding how you did it. You have the power to prove us wrong.

I didn't. Some guy posted it when I said that nuking sux to prove me wrong. Multiplication, how does it work?

Us? No, you're all alone here big guy.

Ignore

The onus of proof is on you to provide necessary evidence to confirm that the damage is legit, doubly so when you've already been caught abusing exploits.

Similar spells like?

I dunno, magic missile? If it was an intended effect it'd probably work with the most basic multi-hit spell in the game.

I just wanted a chanter, i do on levelups typical shenanigans like upping charisma, taking support spells, perks that increase efficiency of chants. So what i can do to increase the DC beside that?

Imma be honest, they are kind of playing with you. Linzi is gimped by poor starting charisma and generally shouldn't be expected to maximize DCs like a sorcerer or wizard and rely on single hit spells, she's better off with her songs and stuff like buffs that don't need to worry as much about saves. You can take spell focus to increase DCs, and there are ways to lower enemy saves (though they are probably either low chance to land themselves or outside your reach atm) but for this specific foe you're best off just using Grease because he probably has an awful reflex save as a big troll who looks like a figher (low reflex save) and because it forces a save every round rather than just once. Prone enemies are easy to fuck up in melee and when they try to get up they get fucked up more. I'm not sure if you have spells like Displacement yet but they are overpowered in a context like this too.

 

[Yosharian]

Isn't Hargulka's Reflex save bad too?

Oh it's Kargadd

Right I was thinking why the fuck is he taking on Hargulka at level 6

 

[Stavrophore]

What is this DC in PK? I can't find a good definition other than some reddit posts.

Here some definition from reddit post:

DC of your spells determined 10 + (level of the spell) + (your casting ability score modifier) + various (like spell focus) bonuses.

Level of the spell is 2, what is the "casting ability score modifier" and from what it derives? Spell focus bonuses? You mean focus on school like conjuration? Why the hell this is not in the game explained properly and i have to read some obscure posts on other websites?

 

[Desiderius]

Linzi ends up wanting Evocation as much as Enchantment. I don't find the Focus Feats to be worth it for her outside of variant builds where you splash a Fae Sorc level to really go off on Enchantments.

 

[Desiderius]

reddit

Found your problem.

It's all in game.

 

[Yosharian]

Average Manatee magic missile is not a ray spell so it doesn't count as a 'weapon' attack for the purposes of Sneak Attack (it doesn't require a roll to hit).

 

[Average Manatee]

Average Manatee magic missile is not a ray spell so it doesn't count as a 'weapon' attack for the purposes of Sneak Attack (it doesn't require a roll to hit).

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

(incidentally in PnP you can order the missiles to attack different targets, which would allow you to sneak attack with each individual missile I believe, just not stack them against one guy)

Level of the spell is 2, what is the "casting ability score modifier" and from what it derives? Spell focus bonuses? You mean focus on school like conjuration? Why the hell this is not in the game explained properly and i have to read some obscure posts on other websites?

That's your CHA bonus, assuming you are casting as a bard.

 

[Yosharian]

Pfft enchantment is much better until like level 14 or so when you get the shout spells. Or Conjuration, but enchantment plays to the bard's strengths with their unique spells. Tasha's and Cacophonous Call dominate many early- to mid-game fights.

 

[Yosharian]

Average Manatee magic missile is not a ray spell so it doesn't count as a 'weapon' attack for the purposes of Sneak Attack (it doesn't require a roll to hit).

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

Well yes but that ability doesn't function the same as the basic functionality you get with ray spells

 

[NJClaw]

I dunno, magic missile? If it was an intended effect it'd probably work with the most basic multi-hit spell in the game.

Magic Missile doesn't make attack rolls, so Sneak Attack doesn't apply.

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

This means nothing, because it has nothing to do with the rule owlcat changed.

Their change impacts ray spells that make multiple attack rolls: in PnP only the first ray gets the Sneak Attack damage, in Kingmaker all rays get it. It's the same with Scorching Ray.

 

[user]

Spells can easily turn the tide of battle, you can't expect them to work every time, especially at the first chapters before you get to stack feats/items for DC rolls. You can still minimize the randomness by applying the right spells to the right targets with low saves. Almost every enemy has a weakness in either reflex, will or fortitude. Do not expect a low level caster with a small repertoire of spells to carry you through the early game - casters tend to be late bloomers and they are definitely worth the investment.

It also depends on what you expect from a game. For example I think it's great that:
-Most classes have their own power progression curve.
-That the risk reward ratio among classes and abilities is different. Not just their icons, effect colors and names.
-That spells don't feel like just another generic aoe attack disguised with a fancy effect, like they more or less feel in PoE.
-That combat is a small puzzle you have to solve, that you get rewarded with in-game knowledge which comes from experimentation and that its outcome is not 100% predictable.

 

[Desiderius]

Pfft enchantment is much better until like level 14 or so when you get the shout spells. Or Conjuration, but enchantment plays to the bard's strengths with their unique spells. Tasha's and Cacophonous Call dominate many early- to mid-game fights.

But in P:K unlike Wrath Focus doesn't do enough compared to the alternatives.

Bard gets the Single Target Daze thing that doesn't need an attack roll at level one (functionally Counterspell) and Sound Burst at level 2 and sometimes Rod of Flaming Vengeance shows up really early. Plus Bard Evo is money against game's hardest foes (Ghosts/Fae).

 

[Average Manatee]

Average Manatee magic missile is not a ray spell so it doesn't count as a 'weapon' attack for the purposes of Sneak Attack (it doesn't require a roll to hit).

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

Well yes but that ability doesn't function the same as the basic functionality you get with ray spells

I dunno, magic missile? If it was an intended effect it'd probably work with the most basic multi-hit spell in the game.

Magic Missile doesn't make attack rolls, so Sneak Attack doesn't apply.

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

This means nothing, because it has nothing to do with the rule owlcat changed.

Their change impacts ray spells that make multiple attack rolls: in PnP only the first ray gets the Sneak Attack damage, in Kingmaker all rays get it. It's the same with Scorching Ray.

It's a multi-hit attack, it's obviously logically inconsistent if one multi-hit attack procs sneak attack multiple time while another doesn't.

 

[Yosharian]

Ehhh I guess but I can spare the feats on my build to get both so I suppose it depends on what you are doing with your bard

 

[Yosharian]

Average Manatee magic missile is not a ray spell so it doesn't count as a 'weapon' attack for the purposes of Sneak Attack (it doesn't require a roll to hit).

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

Well yes but that ability doesn't function the same as the basic functionality you get with ray spells

I dunno, magic missile? If it was an intended effect it'd probably work with the most basic multi-hit spell in the game.

Magic Missile doesn't make attack rolls, so Sneak Attack doesn't apply.

You can sneak attack with it with AT's 10th level ability.

This means nothing, because it has nothing to do with the rule owlcat changed.

Their change impacts ray spells that make multiple attack rolls: in PnP only the first ray gets the Sneak Attack damage, in Kingmaker all rays get it. It's the same with Scorching Ray.

It's a multi-hit attack, it's obviously logically inconsistent if one multi-hit attack procs sneak attack multiple time while another doesn't.

It's a different ability...