Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Stavrophore]

Clusterfuck on this screen look like korean MMO. That's why i prefer TB.

 

[Mortmal]

TLDR ? i disagree there's a lot more to read,amonsgt them which spells to pick . Then maybe have a look at magus too who have a different way to cast using their weapons to land touch spells , they ahve icnredible burst damage . There's nothing obvious at all in this , the game is not explaining nearly enough . Not that it should have, it was the same for infinity engine games you had to read 2e books.

 

[Saravan]

Nevermind found it

 

[Average Manatee]

Clusterfuck on this screen look like korean MMO. That's why i prefer TB.

I agree. It's tempting to fall into RT though because its so much easier and quicker than TB.

 

[Desiderius]

The time you spent fucking around with that you could have used to figure out the the actual interface.

 

[NJClaw]

It's obviously an attack, just because something doesn't have an attack roll doesn't make something not an attack. If Magic Missile wasn't an attack then you could use it and not break invisibility, which specifically says "ends if the subject attacks any creature". Surprise spell says nothing about "adding to sneak attack damage ONCE".

Okay, I'll try again.

Certain things can be an "attack" even without an attack roll. However, this doesn't change the fact that Sneak Attack doesn't work with spells that don't have an attack roll. Try it: cast Magic Missile or Fireball and you won't deal any Sneak Attack damage. To deal Sneak Attack damage, your spell needs an attack roll. That's how it worked in D&D 3.5, and Pathfinder just went along with it.

However, in PnP, if your spell makes multiple attack rolls, you can only add Sneak Attack damage to the first attack:

Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target).

To add Sneak Attack damage to spells that don't have an attack roll, you need Surprise Spells, and in this case the damage gets applied only once:

How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

The rule that Owlcat decided to ignore is the first one and, as a result, spells that make multiple simultaneous attacks add Sneak Attack damage to each attack. Since I'm not sure they ever publicly stated if that's a design decision or an involuntary bug, you can decide on that on your own.

What, instead, is most definitely a bug is the fact that, when your attack or spell has multiple sources of damage (Ice Storm, Hellfire Ray, the quarterstaff that deals force damage, and the ring that adds acid damage to your attacks), certain damage bonuses (like Sneak Attack and Smite Evil) get applied to both sources, effectively doubling their damage potential.

 

[Desiderius]

So much retardation so little time.

This is the formula hidden under Magic

This is the Class Menu, not the character creation screen. Characters don't get created at level 18.

You can see level 7 highlighted there. You can hover to get the pop-up at the right or right click to get the scrollable list of spells which themselves have their own hover tooltips.

 

[Average Manatee]

How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

The rule that Owlcat decided to ignore is the first one and, as a result, spells that make multiple simultaneous attacks add Sneak Attack damage to each attack. Since I'm not sure they ever publicly stated if that's a design decision or an involuntary bug, you can decide on that on your own.

If they are ignoring the rule that a spell can only cause one sneak attack to one target in one instance, there's no reason they would enforce it in another. This is logically inconsistent and therefore clearly not an intentional design.

 

[Average Manatee]

View attachment 19969

You can see level 7 highlighted there. You can hover to get the pop-up at the right or right click to get the scrollable list of spells which themselves have their own hover tooltips.

That's useless if you have to look at each individual level. You lied about what to click on. Furthermore its bad game design, why the fuck would anyone click on a literally empty box to learn things about a class? Why are you full of shit?

Spell Progression is a table like on this page that details spells known: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/. This is the proper way to present the information.

 

[Saravan]

So much retardation so little time.

View attachment 19967

This is the formula hidden under Magic

View attachment 19968

This is the Class Menu, not the character creation screen. Characters don't get created at level 18.

View attachment 19969

You can see level 7 highlighted there. You can hover to get the pop-up at the right or right click to get the scrollable list of spells which themselves have their own hover tooltips.

Indeed, I would only add that this would be considered a +10 bonus roll on the AL formula.

The time you spent fucking around with that you could have used to figure out the the actual interface.

Problem is, I had more fun with this than slogging through the last 3 acts combined.

 

[Stavrophore]

Desiderius still no formula given.

Also the encyclopedia entry says that charisma is added. It clearly ISN'T just added, it is either multiplied by 1/4 or other shenanigans are done, because i have 17 charisma and the DC was 15, so 10+2[spell level]+3 and not 17.

 

[Desiderius]

What, instead, is most definitely a bug is the fact that, when your attack or spell has multiple sources of damage (Ice Storm, Hellfire Ray, the quarterstaff that deals force damage, and the ring that adds acid damage to your attacks), certain damage bonuses (like Sneak Attack and Smite Evil) get applied to both sources, effectively doubling their damage potential.

What he's saying is that if this system were consistent then Magic Missile would get Sneaks on each individual Missile once Surprise Spells is unlocked. Given how desperate he is to win on some point however minor to salvage some shred of self-respect (if you're playing at home this is why basing one's self-respect on being right is a bad idea. I don't couch statements in qualifiers so people mistake me for doing this but that is easily belied by the many examples where I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.) we should probably grant him that one.

As to the original point nukes are not in fact bad, as the person making that argument originally long ago conceded.

 

[Desiderius]

The formula is circled.

It says bonus. The bonus is that thing to the right of the stat - it goes up on even values.

Do you need a reading tutor?

I'm starting to suspect you're worse than Islamic. Do you work for CNN?

 

[NJClaw]

If they are ignoring the rule that a spell can only cause one sneak attack to one target in one instance, there's no reason they would enforce it in another. This is logically inconsistent and therefore clearly not an intentional design.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Those are two completely different rules.

The rule that allows you to apply Sneak Attack damage only on one ray is the general one on spells that make simultaneous attacks, which doesn't allow to add Sneak Attack damage to Magic Missile at all (otherwise, why would you need Surprise Spells to do it?)

The rule that allows you to apply Sneak Attack damage only on one missile is the one on Surprise Spells, a specific feature of a single class.

It might still very well be a bug though, I can't decide that on my own. Only LannTheStupid can.

 

[Desiderius]

If it's a bug it's one they have pretty good reason for not fixing. Like the Endurance Ranger bug that made it harder to get bumrushed by those unassuming Owlbears hiding behind that high Athletics check or Second Mystery not working on Wrath to keep idiots like me from putting Daeran on a Mount.

 

[Average Manatee]

If they are ignoring the rule that a spell can only cause one sneak attack to one target in one instance, there's no reason they would enforce it in another. This is logically inconsistent and therefore clearly not an intentional design.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Those are two completely different rules.

The rule that allows you to apply Sneak Attack damage only on one ray is the general one on spells that make simultaneous attacks, which doesn't allow to add Sneak Attack damage to Magic Missile at all (otherwise, why would you need Surprise Spells to do it?)

The rule that allows you to apply Sneak Attack damage only on one missile is the one on Surprise Spells, a specific feature of a single class.

It might still very well be a bug though, I can't decide that on my own. Only LannTheStupid can.

That's literally the same rule restated. This happens all the time in complex games where knowledge is presented to stop people from accidentally playing by the wrong rules because they didn't check something elsewhere in the rulebook. Sneak attacks on the same target with one spell = Bad. Magic missile = no sneak attack normally. Arcane Trickster = Sneak attack with spells, but remember no multi-sneak attack with spells like magic missile.

 

[Stavrophore]

The formula is circled.

It says bonus. The bonus is that thing to the right of the stat - it goes up on even values.

Do you need a reading tutor?

I'm starting to suspect you're worse than Islamic. Do you work for CNN?

Thanks. This wouldn't be a problem if the game conveyed all of this in a clear and coincise way with the use of modern ui techniques like tooltips on every important term[DC/HD and others that arent explicitly explained and are very important]. Crusader Kings 3 is a great example how tooltips should be made. Evan a short interactive GIF in encyclopedia entries that show how all modifiers tie to the DC formula would be good. Right now you are collecting scraps from all over the place to tie them into the mechanics. I understand that people who already know all this stuff doesn't consider this a problem, but i know literally nothing about pathfinder rules.

 

[Desiderius]

It's probably an oversight to be honest. Magic Missile could use the help by the time you hit Surprise Spells.

 

[Desiderius]

The formula is circled.

It says bonus. The bonus is that thing to the right of the stat - it goes up on even values.

Do you need a reading tutor?

I'm starting to suspect you're worse than Islamic. Do you work for CNN?

Thanks. This wouldn't be a problem if the game conveyed all of this in a clear and coincise way with the use of modern ui techniques like tooltips on every important term[DC/HD and others that arent explicitly explained and are very important]. Crusader Kings 3 is a great example how tooltips should be made. Evan a short interactive GIF in encyclopedia entries that show how all modifiers tie to the DC formula would be good. Right now you are collecting scraps from all over the place to tie them into the mechanics. I understand that people who already know all this stuff doesn't consider this a problem, but i know literally nothing about pathfinder rules.

Bingo - I had the same experience initially. Wrath works a lot harder to get these things right.

The difference for me was seeing Haplo's screenshots made me realize that I could beat saves and hit AC if I went looking so I did and ended up finding everything.

Ended up finding so much I could beat Unfair and I've never even played a highest difficulty level before on any game since Civ I.

 

[NJClaw]

That's literally the same rule restated.

No, you silly, because Magic Missile doesn't make multiple simultaneous attacks. Magic Missile may very well be an attack (in the sense that it's an offensive action that interacts with stuff like Invisibility and Sanctuary), but you don't make simultaneous attacks with it because to "make an attack" you need an attack roll.

If Magic Missile made multiple simultaneous attacks, you would already add Sneak Attack damage to the first one even without Surprise Spells. How can you not understand that?

 

[Saravan]

The formula is circled.

It says bonus. The bonus is that thing to the right of the stat - it goes up on even values.

Do you need a reading tutor?

I'm starting to suspect you're worse than Islamic. Do you work for CNN?

Thanks. This wouldn't be a problem if the game conveyed all of this in a clear and coincise way with the use of modern ui techniques like tooltips. Crusader Kings 3 is a great example how tooltips should be made. Evan a short interactive GIF in encyclopedia entries that show how all modifiers tie to the DC formula would be good. Right now you are collecting scraps from all over the place to tie them into the mechanics. I understand that people who already know all this stuff doesn't consider this a problem, but i know literally nothing about pathfinder rules.

Listen man you and Desiderius are on two completely different plane of realities. This whole exchange although extremely entertaining, is a complete waste of time.

You are essentially saying, as obviously understood from any normal reader from the very start that the information available in the game is either obtuse, difficult to find or not provided at all.

Desiderius is essentially saying that all you need to do is open the encyclopedia, re-play the game three times, read through the pathfinder rulebook, learn programming and extract the source code from the game to find the relevant ini.file in order to learn the exact calculation.

 

[Desiderius]

He's saying that with Surprise Spells Fireball gets a Sneak on each of its damage packets so so should MM. MM has a separate number for each Missile already.

 

[Average Manatee]

Desiderius is essentially saying that all you need to do is open the encyclopedia, re-play the game three times, read through the pathfinder rulebook, learn programming and extract the source code from the game to find the relevant ini.file in order to learn the exact calculation.

No, I'm pretty sure Desiderius is grotesquely offended by the suggestion that you need to read the pathfinder rulebook online or do anything other than replaying the game eight times along with right clicking on every pixel of the interface.

 

[Mortmal]

Used to be bugged at release , sneak attack damage was applied on every single rays, hell fire was really good . So even the devs had trouble figuring it that one .

 

[Average Manatee]

Used to be bugged at release , sneak attack damage was applied on every single rays, hell fire was really good . So even the devs had trouble figuring it that one .

What? The whole point is that it's applied not only on hellfire rays, but halves of Hellfire rays. Sneak attack gets applied 6 times for a 3 ray spell. Even going with the assumption that the rules are intentionally changes to make individual rays get individual sneak attack damage, it's broken.

And incidentally he still hasn't revealed how he got a 25d6 polar ray to do over 1000 damage, which is obviously broken nonsense.