Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

I just played the game blind

then again better be blind than having sight but no vision

 

[Inhabitants of Khorinis]

This game's TB made me fall in love with RTwP.

 

[NJClaw]

Spellcasting so far is very weak. Amiri is the biggest damage dealer, even my tank deals more damage. There aren't even that good CC spells, or debuffs with huge maluses. For example you need to land some spell, but first you need to lower target defenses. Your debuff spell doesn't work and then your primary spell also fail. Shitton of scrolls that add some measly +1 to resistance/roll, WTF is this worthless shit? I have to stack these from four sources, to get +4. Rolls of course can screw you easily. I've dropped the diff from challenging to normal because for a first playthrough i thought it was going too slow/hard/too much micromanaging this shit.

I know this expression gets overused on this forum but, seriously, WTF am I reading?



Obviously everyone has the right to be wrong, especially with a game as massive as Kingmaker, but this shit is going to haunt me forever:

There aren't even that good CC spells, or debuffs with huge maluses.

Dude, come on. Each level has its fair share of powerful class-defining spells.

Hideous Laughter is a 2nd level (1st for a Bard) spell that can disable a boss without any setup, and Cacophonous Call is a 2nd level spell that's basically Hideous Laughter on steroids. Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell that basically solves encounter on its own. With these spells and two others that target the other saves (like Grease and Snowball), you're already set to easily defeat almost anything on your path, especially if you play on normal/challenging. And we haven't even touched level 3 spells yet.

For example you need to land some spell, but first you need to lower target defenses. Your debuff spell doesn't work and then your primary spell also fail.

If you always need to land debuffs to use your spells, you're probably targeting the wrong saves. Each enemy has three main defenses (Fortitude, Reflexes, Will) and, usually, some defenses are lower than others (big dumb monsters and animals have low Will, agile creatures have low Fortitude, big armored guys have low Reflexes).

It's not that spellcasting is weak in this game, it's just that warrior classes are very efficient.

 

[gurugeorge]

...the illusion of a virtual world is paper-thin in videogames and only lasts so long as everything's new.

This is the problem with the modern Dev mentality that their game must use 100% of the assets in the campaign.

Agreed. But you can understand their point. Given that they know most players won't finish a game anyway, you can understand that they want to show off their stuff as much as possible under that condition.

But maybe players would be more glued to games if they were richer in the way you say.

 

[Stavrophore]

Uhh...
Grease (Fucks up everything and gives your fighters free AoOs when things try to stand up, doubling their damage output or more if they have combat reflexes)
Enlarge Person (makes your fighters stronger, their weapon stronger, and gives them more range so they can stand next to grease and smack shit inside it)
Glitterdust (blinded enemies take huge penalties, and it reveals invisible enemies).
Web (just generally fucks a lot of shit up in a wide area).

That's just up to level 2. Level 3 spells start to break the game with stinking cloud. Stinking Cloud + poison immunity or grease/web + freedom of movement = easy win for 95% of encounters as your melee just walks around freely beating the shit out of helpless enemies.

Grease hits my own people, unless i cast it on edge.
Enlarge person - i have this and use it.
Gliiterdust -didn't know that blinded is such powerful effect, the game doesnt say ANYTHING about hit change decrease of 50%. I've used it few times and wasn't impressed, maybe because it hardly landed.
Web -i don't have it. I could get it on my magus. Ive opted for nauseating bomb for alchemist instead of that one that sticks monsters, could be good.

Obviously everyone has the right to be wrong, especially with a game as massive as Kingmaker, but this shit is going to haunt me forever:

Im accustomed to buffs/debuffs play like in DoS1/2, PoE. I like strong spellcasting with definitive, distinct maluses, not some +1/-1 shit. You open with debuff appropriate to a creature and follow with damage dealing/CC spell.

 

[gurugeorge]

nice. anything I miss by not being chaotic? I figure they handle CG as a hippie to LG's nerd, and CE as animalistic evil vs. LE's sustainable evil?

Actually off the top of my head there is quite an amusing thing fairly early on in the game to do with two factions of small monsters that you can influence either to fight each other or not

 

[Desiderius]

Uhh...
Grease (Fucks up everything and gives your fighters free AoOs when things try to stand up, doubling their damage output or more if they have combat reflexes)
Enlarge Person (makes your fighters stronger, their weapon stronger, and gives them more range so they can stand next to grease and smack shit inside it)
Glitterdust (blinded enemies take huge penalties, and it reveals invisible enemies).
Web (just generally fucks a lot of shit up in a wide area).

That's just up to level 2. Level 3 spells start to break the game with stinking cloud. Stinking Cloud + poison immunity or grease/web + freedom of movement = easy win for 95% of encounters as your melee just walks around freely beating the shit out of helpless enemies.

Grease hits my own people, unless i cast it on edge.
Enlarge person - i have this and use it.
Gliiterdust -didn't know that blinded is such powerful effect, the game doesnt say ANYTHING about hit change decrease of 50%. I've used it few times and wasn't impressed, maybe because it hardly landed.
Web -i don't have it. I could get it on my magus. Ive opted for nauseating bomb for alchemist instead of that one that sticks monsters, could be good.

Obviously everyone has the right to be wrong, especially with a game as massive as Kingmaker, but this shit is going to haunt me forever:

Im accustomed to buffs/debuffs play like in DoS1/2, PoE. I like strong spellcasting with definitive, distinct maluses, not some +1/-1 shit. You open with debuff appropriate to a creature and follow with damage dealing/CC spell.

I do agree that targeting AoEs is a pain in RTwP but the maluses are only +1/-1 very early in the game (Bless/Bane) and you also have access to Shaken (-2 to Saves/attacks) from the beginning via Dazzling Display and Archon’s Aura (-2 to Saves/attacks/AC passive) from level 5, with Bard Song giving +2 at same level.

 

[NJClaw]

m accustomed to buffs/debuffs play like in DoS1/2, PoE. I like strong spellcasting with definitive, distinct maluses, not some +1/-1 shit. You open with debuff appropriate to a creature and follow with damage dealing/CC spell.

I don't know what game you're playing, man. Most of the time there's no need for any debuff, you can cast the appropriate CC spell right away. Especially on challenging/normal. Archon's Aura and Dirge of Doom/Dazzling Display should be enough to never care about debuffing your enemies' saves with anything else for the rest of the game.

I do agree that targeting AoEs is a pain in RTwP

He's playing TB though:

Im playing TB. I still have like over 150 days till the curse hit.

 

[Average Manatee]

You can do it with other spells. It's perfectly logical. Each arrow gets sneaks and so do rays. I didn't admit anything. Rays get sneaks. I'm not bullshitting anyone - I'm demonstrating that you're mistaken. I showed you one item, there are other items like it. That's how he got to 1000. Why not try it yourself?

You're still hiding how you did it. You have the power to prove us wrong. The only explanation for not doing so is that you can't reveal it without showing it as some lame exploit again.

Also its obviously an exploit if sneak attack is applied 6x to the spell rather than only 1.

It's not an exploit as the game developers have intentionally left it in. It is a big departure from how it works in PnP though.

It's clearly an exploit, it's flagrantly violating the ruleset, at odds with how other similar spells with multiple damaging effects acts, and makes no sense.

Grease hits my own people, unless i cast it on edge.
Enlarge person - i have this and use it.
Gliiterdust -didn't know that blinded is such powerful effect, the game doesnt say ANYTHING about hit change decrease of 50%. I've used it few times and wasn't impressed, maybe because it hardly landed.
Web -i don't have it. I could get it on my magus. Ive opted for nauseating bomb for alchemist instead of that one that sticks monsters, could be good.

I do agree avoiding AoEs in this game is kind of bullshit since characters fall on their ass if their circle even comes close to the edge of the grease circle. Very easy to accidentally get in. You can get yourself a reach weapon in combination with enlarge to make it easy to stay out while hitting things inside. Or just go ranged of course. Also Freedom of Movement will eventually make you completely immune to this stuff.

 

[Stavrophore]

I do agree that targeting AoEs is a pain in RTwP

It's not a problem with targeting, problem is that your fighters get into grease too. Often grease is undesirable as it will block your way to archers, once your fighters deal with melee enemies. And grease only vanish after resting.

Debuff/buffs in this game are only valid when stacked, because they are weak -often its just 5-10% to rolls[+1/+2]. Even late game where enemies will have 60AC, your stupid buffs/debuffs will give you +5...

I don't know what game you're playing, man. Most of the time there's no need for any debuff, you can cast the appropriate CC spell right away. Especially on challenging/normal. Archon's Aura and Dirge of Doom/Dazzling Display should be enough to never care about debuffing your enemies' saves with anything else for the rest of the game.

For me a synonym of good RPG casting is debuff/buff play, finding combos, learning about appropriate spells for each creature, as i said big emphasis on specific combinations -without those you could not even attack enemy effectively. Outright 100% immunities are also something i don't like and i find it very lazy/bad game design -you can get easily blocked if your team doesnt have appropriate char, unless the game provide multiple ways to deal with such enemies at hand even without special char/skill investment. Brute force or casting spells right away is just something i dont like. Often creatures will have a good chance to resist a spell EVEN if it targets their weakest stat like will for dumb monsters with roughly 30-50% of chance of landing. That's utter shite and too RNG for me, that's why i like games where you debuff and then land spells with >80% probability.

Also give us ability to make sidenotes when you inspect a creature. Im not a fucking autist who will check every roll and deduce hit probabilities, resistances and what spells are good against a creature and write it in a notebook that i will have beside me when i play. Use ingame sidenotes, or give us ability to see percentage of success on spells. PoE could why pathfinder couldn't? And stop with the tabletop nonsense excuses pls, when game already has resting which wasnt in tabletop game.

 

[Desiderius]

No, you just suck.

Git gud.

 

[Stavrophore]

Nah it's the game that has mediocre and bland system, where even PoE is better.

 

[NJClaw]

Often creatures will have a good chance to resist a spell EVEN if it targets their weakest stat like will for dumb monsters with roughly 30-50% of chance of landing.

What are you talking about?

Branded Trolls have +4 to their Will save. By that point, Linzi can reasonably have Charisma 18 thanks to a +2 item. With (Greater) Spell Focus, her Hideous Laughter will have DC 17, Cacophonous Call 18. A Sorcerer MC will easily start with Charisma 20, so his Glitterdust would have DC 20 by that point. That's a 60-75% of landing the spell, without counting Dazzling Display and/or Archon's Aura.

Also give us ability to make sidenotes when you inspect a creature. Im not a fucking autist who will check every roll and deduce hit probabilities, resistances and what spells are good against a creature and write it in a notebook that i will have beside me when i play. Use ingame sidenotes, or give us ability to see percentage of success on spells. PoE could why pathfinder couldn't? And stop with the tabletop nonsense excuses pls, when game already has resting which wasnt in tabletop game.

Dude, you just need to know your spells' DC (10 + spell level + your main casting ability modifier + eventual feats) and your enemy's saving throw bonus, then factor in the d20 roll. How hard can that be?

 

[Average Manatee]

PoE is better.

 

[Desiderius]

You're still hiding how you did it. You have the power to prove us wrong.

I didn't. Some guy posted it when I said that nuking sux to prove me wrong. Multiplication, how does it work?

Us? No, you're all alone here big guy.

Ignore

 

[NJClaw]

Also its obviously an exploit if sneak attack is applied 6x to the spell rather than only 1.

It's not an exploit as the game developers have intentionally left it in. It is a big departure from how it works in PnP though.

It's clearly an exploit, it's flagrantly violating the ruleset, at odds with how other similar spells with multiple damaging effects acts, and makes no sense.

Similar spells like?

 

[Stavrophore]

The huge randomness of this game is killing any enjoyment. Yeah apply glitterdust they said. And onto another reload xD

https://imgur.com/a/6dLerSX

Shit system will be shit. It probably gets better in late game, where a D20 isnt a problem if you are rocking 60 AC, which only contribute like 1/4 of the total value.

 

[NJClaw]

The huge randomness of this game is killing any enjoyment. Yeah apply glitterdust they said. And onto another reload xD

https://imgur.com/a/6dLerSX

Shit system will be shit. It probably gets better in late game, where a D20 isnt a problem if you are rocking 60 AC, which only contribute like 1/4 of the total value.

Linzi seems to be your main arcane caster and her DC for 2nd level spells is 15. FIFTEEN.

Maybe if you don't even want to try you should play on easier difficulties.

 

[Stavrophore]

Linzi is a bard -i haven't specced her as caster, and the glitterdust was taken as a side spell[didnt know its so good apparently...]. There's nothing i can do to improve the DC, it was a first round before i casted any buffs. I don't generally buy equipment for my chars, beside that sweet adamant cool looking armor for the main char.

Im also lvl 6 here.

 

[Thac0]

The huge randomness of this game is killing any enjoyment. Yeah apply glitterdust they said. And onto another reload xD

https://imgur.com/a/6dLerSX

Shit system will be shit. It probably gets better in late game, where a D20 isnt a problem if you are rocking 60 AC, which only contribute like 1/4 of the total value.

Apply Tasha's Hideaus Laughter against that guy, or any other disabling will spell. His save is "only" +4, which means your casters will have 50+% of success, and he lacks immunities to some spells which completely take him out of the fight.
Overcoming him without control is hard but doable actually, I think I killed him on my last hard mode run because he slipped on grease before I could even apply any will spell.

 

[Stavrophore]

And now a reload after with glitterdust applied the Kargadd is dead -took three turns for all chars. The game is a joke with its randomness.

 

[Thac0]

And now a reload after with glitterdust applied the Kargadd is dead -took three turns for all chars. The game is a joke with its randomness.

You are playing a D20 based system...
This applies to literally every DnD derived game that is not piss easy.

 

[NJClaw]

Linzi is a bard -i haven't specced her as caster

So, let me get this straight, you're complaining that a character not specced as a caster isn't always effective as a caster? What's your point?

Yes, if you don't invest your character's resources into making him an effective caster, he won't be an effective caster.

There's nothing i can do to improve the DC

I don't generally buy equipment for my chars

i haven't specced her as caster,

I swear to God, I'm starting to think you're trolling me.

 

[The_Mask]

Are you seriously asking that everything rolls over and dies just like that?

 

[Stavrophore]

Linzi is a bard -i haven't specced her as caster

So, let me get this straight, you're complaining that a character not specced as a caster isn't always effective as a caster? What's your point?

Yes, if you don't invest your character's resources into making him an effective caster, he won't be an effective caster.

There's nothing i can do to improve the DC

I don't generally buy equipment for my chars

i haven't specced her as caster,

I swear to God, I'm starting to think you're trolling me.

She's a bard not caster, i thought i will get something like in PoE where i can create custom chants. Nope, i get shitty spell making with chanting as a side note.
Im not going to invest by buying stuff i prefer to find my stuff looting instead of buying from merchants, and i usually play the RPGs in such way, unless the game specifically give me hints that its not an effective strategy -ie. like in underrail, where buying from merchants is pretty much mandatory to have effective char. Seems that pathfinder also want me to force buying stuff from traders. Also a thing that i didn't like in UR was the fact that you have to go to external wiki to learn what some effects do -PK exhibit same problem. Game should present the info inside game, not external wiki.

You are playing a D20 based system...
This applies to literally every DnD derived game that is not piss easy.

All im saying that the D20 gives huge randomness at the beginning of the game. I can understand that people who played this tabletop and are in late game doesn't mind it because they are accustomed to it.