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NJClaw

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In any event there’s no such thing as a “right” to imagine whatever one wants if that “right” infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players, let alone when said “right” damages the quality of the genre and eventually the world that fantasy collectively calls into being - which is what fantasy is for.
But then WE are the ones in the wrong here because Pathfinder and Golarion have always been about the perfect equality between man and woman. As per your own words, wanting that to change infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players.

You can't expect a game set in Golarion and approved by Paizo to offer a realistic view of the condition of the woman in a pseudo-medieval age. It's just not what the setting is about.
 

mediocrepoet

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In any event there’s no such thing as a “right” to imagine whatever one wants if that “right” infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players, let alone when said “right” damages the quality of the genre and eventually the world that fantasy collectively calls into being - which is what fantasy is for.

Are you seriously concerned:

1) That what someone imagines can ruin what someone else imagines?
2) The sanctity of a fiction genre could be ruined because some of its authors imagine things that you don't like?

I guess this... could cause the downfall of gaming for your sons...
 

Mortmal

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Also, AFAIR Joan of Arc is never shown on foot, only mounted. So is a mounted knight a footsoldier? Hmmm...
Lol what a supercilious cowardly faggot you are, first you imply that Joan of Arc actually fought in battles as a soldier wielding melee weapons, then when you gradually realise that's retarded you cope by playing with unrelated semantics. KYS yourself!
Joan d'arc fought in battles and was really good with a sword, there's report she was especially ruthless and rude wih her own men, so if you think she was just carrying the flag you are wrong . There's joan d'arc myth, the legend and the real story. She had two brothers who were knights, which likely trained her . Then her father was one of the royal supplier so she likely saw the king before thats how she could recognize the king.Then he granted her an army cause.. why not, the cream of the crop of french knights just lost against british peasants with bows so he was completely despressed and had nothing to lose. As for her death , a young girl was burned that day but it wasnt her, there's again an inn registry signed with her name jeanne dite la pucelle (Joan said the virgin) . She led a mercenary company and ended her warlike life wedding one lord in wallonie.
No i am not joking, ask other french historians if you dont believe me.
 

Grunker

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In any event there’s no such thing as a “right” to imagine whatever one wants if that “right” infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players, let alone when said “right” damages the quality of the genre and eventually the world that fantasy collectively calls into being - which is what fantasy is for.

Are you seriously concerned:

1) That what someone imagines can ruin what someone else imagines?
2) The sanctity of a fiction genre could be ruined because some of its authors imagine things that you don't like?

I guess this... could cause the downfall of gaming for your sons...

The sanctity of a fiction genre? Nigga u high? We're talking about the integrity of the entire western civilization being threatened by these plate-wearing female characters in a cartoon cRPG! Get your priorities straightened lest you too will be enslaved by the semi-conductor producing matriarchy and then it will be too late
 

Oreshnik Missile

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In any event there’s no such thing as a “right” to imagine whatever one wants if that “right” infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players, let alone when said “right” damages the quality of the genre and eventually the world that fantasy collectively calls into being - which is what fantasy is for.

Are you seriously concerned:

1) That what someone imagines can ruin what someone else imagines?
2) The sanctity of a fiction genre could be ruined because some of its authors imagine things that you don't like?

I guess this... could cause the downfall of gaming for your sons...
I ran a D&D sesh recently where I'd written the setting with a sort of racial caste system - with darker-skinned human ethnicities and races living in sunnier, blessed climes, while white humans and pallid elves dwelt in accursed Twilight.
A player died in the first session, rolled up a human character for 2nd session, met up with the two Elf PCs at a marketplace and tried to hire them for a job on behalf of a benefactor.... but they just got into a racial shit-talking argument and ended up killing the human PC then running away from the guards.

In fairness they were probably just fucking around and trolling me as is their right, but I think part of it was a cartoonish l1brul strawman of racism, as opposed to what I was going for, which was just segregation and ethnocentrism like with sectarian mediaeval communities.
So perhaps this is an example where their l1brul ideas were reductive and deconstructionist, and as Desiderus says "ruined" what I imagined (at least the planning for that session for sure). And I'm sure l1bruls view a setting that has a semi-rigid racial caste system as very constrictive and deleterious to their preferences. So it is zero-sum! Ideas can conflict with each other, and PK is a mass franchise, not individuals who never speak of their ideas to each other.
 

NJClaw

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Also, AFAIR Joan of Arc is never shown on foot, only mounted. So is a mounted knight a footsoldier? Hmmm...
Lol what a supercilious cowardly faggot you are, first you imply that Joan of Arc actually fought in battles as a soldier wielding melee weapons, then when you gradually realise that's retarded you cope by playing with unrelated semantics. KYS yourself!
Joan d'arc fought in battles and was really good with a sword, there's report she was especially ruthless and rude wih her own men, so if you think she was just carrying the flag you are wrong . There's joan d'arc myth, the legend and the real story. She had two brothers who were knights, which likely trained her . Then her father was one of the royal supplier so she likely saw the king before thats how she could recognize the king.Then he granted her an army cause.. why not, the cream of the crop of french knights just lost against british peasants with bows so he was completely despressed and had nothing to lose. As for her death , a young girl was burned that day but it wasnt her, there's again an inn registry signed with her name jeanne dite la pucelle (Joan said the virgin) . She led a mercenary company and ended her life wedding one lord in wallonie.
No i am not joking, ask other french historians if you dont believe me.
Everything I've ever read about Joan of Arc never said anything about her actually fighting in melee. I read about her getting wounded, but always from distant arrows. Can you share any source? Not necessarily in English, French ones are okay.
 

Oreshnik Missile

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Also, AFAIR Joan of Arc is never shown on foot, only mounted. So is a mounted knight a footsoldier? Hmmm...
Lol what a supercilious cowardly faggot you are, first you imply that Joan of Arc actually fought in battles as a soldier wielding melee weapons, then when you gradually realise that's retarded you cope by playing with unrelated semantics. KYS yourself!
Joan d'arc fought in battles and was really good with a sword, there's report she was especially ruthless and rude wih her own men, so if you think she was just carrying the flag you are wrong . There's joan d'arc myth, the legend and the real story. She had two brothers who were knights, which likely trained her . Then her father was one of the royal supplier so she likely saw the king before thats how she could recognize the king.Then he granted her an army cause.. why not, the cream of the crop of french knights just lost against british peasants with bows so he was completely despressed and had nothing to lose. As for her death , a young girl was burned that day but it wasnt her, there's again an inn registry signed with her name jeanne dite la pucelle (Joan said the virgin) . She led a mercenary company and ended her warlike life wedding one lord in wallonie.
No i am not joking, ask other french historians if you dont believe me.
How interesting, I will have to abase myself to Lann if I'm actually the faggoty retard after all.
 

gurugeorge

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You're missing the point. The reason for having females in our thing has shifted. They were in there right from the beginning in nerd stuff, sure, but that's because nerds wanted to see tiddies.

Sure, but also some guys got off to the warrior woman thing. It was true then, it's true now. Fetish porn sites like that baremaidens thing should tell you that much.


Also, females were conceived as possibly equal and companionable with the hero, but seldom superior (or if they were superior that was because they were on another level, like a goddess or something).

This is a fair point, but...


That has shifted to women being included to shore up a particular Narrative, which often means they have to be better than men even at men's things. Male heroes generally play a subordinate or comical role, or if they're allowed to be strong it's because they've seen the liberal light, or they're going to be the ones who sacrifice themselves to kill the Nazis.

The pathetic loser comment is related to this. How fragile do you have to be to feel threatened by it? That's really the beginning and end of my POV on most of this stuff.

Your culture war is silly. The fact that you want to spend time and energy to die on this hill is ridiculous. Etc.
Just like the SJWs, people who spend time thinking about this clearly don't have any real problems to consider or anything more important to do with their time. YMMV

It's not a question of fragility or being directly threatened in a psychological sense, it's a question of pattern recognition.
 

Grunker

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In any event there’s no such thing as a “right” to imagine whatever one wants if that “right” infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players, let alone when said “right” damages the quality of the genre and eventually the world that fantasy collectively calls into being - which is what fantasy is for.

Are you seriously concerned:

1) That what someone imagines can ruin what someone else imagines?
2) The sanctity of a fiction genre could be ruined because some of its authors imagine things that you don't like?

I guess this... could cause the downfall of gaming for your sons...
I ran a D&D sesh recently where I'd written the setting with a sort of racial caste system - with darker-skinned human ethnicities and races living in sunnier, blessed climes, while white humans and pallid elves dwelt in accursed Twilight.
A player died in the first session, rolled up a human character for 2nd session, met up with the two Elf PCs at a marketplace and tried to hire them for a job on behalf of a benefactor.... but they just got into a racial shit-talking argument and ended up killing the human PC then running away from the guards.

In fairness they were probably just fucking around and trolling me as is their right, but I think part of it was a cartoonish l1brul strawman of racism, as opposed to what I was going for, which was just segregation and ethnocentrism like with sectarian mediaeval communities.
So perhaps this is an example where their l1brul ideas were reductive and deconstructionist, and as Desiderus says "ruined" what I imagined (at least the planning for that session for sure). And I'm sure l1bruls view a setting that has a semi-rigid racial caste system as very constrictive and deleterious to their preferences. So it is zero-sum! Ideas can conflict with each other, and PK is a mass franchise, not individuals who never speak of their ideas to each other.

Or you could grow a reasonable view of culture and enjoy entertainment on its own premises - in your example, that would be me playing within the confines of whatever structure you've built your RPG around, while in the reverse example that would be you enjoying the merits of Valerie's tale whilst ignoring that incel blood vein in your forehead trying its hardest not to burst.

Any view of culture that makes its value judgments based on something as base a whatever political views you might hold at a specific point in time is an infantile one. Ironically, it is one first and foremost held by the woke l1brul horde you so despise, as they filter everything they watch through their censorship glasses - scoffing at Lovecraft's depiction of race, Hemingway's depiction of women or what have you. They're not able to enjoy these great pieces of fiction that highlight how insignificant their own lives are for the sole reason that some element of them doesn't adhere to whatever modern standards they choose to use as a lense through which to consume them. The lesser of the two evils resulting from this is a vast number of people who maintain their cultural ignorance, the greater one is obviously the increasing push to censor, change and edit cultural output that doesn't conform to the politics of these narrow-minded fucks.

An educated liberal will enjoy Hemingway for the great literature it is, while an educated die-hard capitalist should enjoy Grapes of Wrath, and no one should enjoy Ayn Rand regardless of how libertarian they are, not because of her morals or libertarian worldview but because she's a shit writer and Atlas Shrugged is a really boring piece of garbage.

And you should judge Valerie on the merits of her character and plot within the form and ambitions of P:K (slim as they are, but we are talking about a cRPG here), not through the lenses of your whack-ass identity politics.
 
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Desiderius

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In any event there’s no such thing as a “right” to imagine whatever one wants if that “right” infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players, let alone when said “right” damages the quality of the genre and eventually the world that fantasy collectively calls into being - which is what fantasy is for.
But then WE are the ones in the wrong here because Pathfinder and Golarion have always been about the perfect equality between man and woman. As per your own words, wanting that to change infringes on the same purported right of the rest of the players.

You can't expect a game set in Golarion and approved by Paizo to offer a realistic view of the condition of the woman in a pseudo-medieval age. It's just not what the setting is about.

I do and it is. Maybe Paizo wanted to be fooled after beholding all they had made.
 

Mortmal

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and yeah gib french sources, google translate works great
I learned it from an history university teacher. You wont get much sources on the internet, its an incredible story full of conspiracies .Not the best one but worth looking at : Jeanne d'Arc : revue par deux "historiens" - Christ Roi (over-blog.com) , Colette Beaune dans Jeanne d’Arc : vérités et légendes, (éd. Perrin, 2008)
You wont see mention of it often cause people wont like it, they prefer the pretty myth of the virgin lady freeing france.It's a common case of hidden history.
 

Desiderius

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and yeah gib french sources, google translate works great
I learned it from an history university teacher. You wont get much sources on the internet, its an incredible story full of conspiracies .Not the best one but worth looking at : Jeanne d'Arc : revue par deux "historiens" - Christ Roi (over-blog.com) , Colette Beaune dans Jeanne d’Arc : vérités et légendes, (éd. Perrin, 2008)
You wont see mention of it often cause people wont like it, they prefer the pretty myth of the virgin lady freeing france.It's a common case of hidden history.

Well she is what she is because she's so rare (no doubt inspiring Tolkien's Eowyn regardless of how subconscious that inspiration, but he's Catholic so probably not very).

They're the exception that proves the rule. And yeah as @Lann says in extremis women go to war but Amiri's tribe and Val's family were anything but in extremis and Jae's situation was the exact opposite.
 

Oreshnik Missile

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Or you could grow a reasonable view of culture and enjoy entertainment on its own premises - in your example, that would be me playing within the confines of whatever structure you've built your RPG around, while in the reverse example that would be you enjoying the merits of Valerie's tale whilst ignoring that incel blood vein in your forehead trying its hardest not to burst.

Any view of culture that makes its value judgments based on something as base a whatever political views you might hold at a specific point in time is an infantile one. Ironically, it is one first and foremost held by the woke l1brul horde you so despise, as they filter everything they watch through their censorship glasses - scoffing at Lovecraft's depiction of race, Hemingway's depiction of women or what have you. They're not able to enjoy these great pieces of fiction that highlight how insignificant their own lives are for the sole reason that some element of them doesn't adhere to whatever modern standards they choose to use as a lense through which to consume them. The lesser of the two evils resulting from this is a vast number of people who maintain their cultural ignorance, the greater one is obviously the increasing push to censor, change and edit cultural output that doesn't conform to the politics of these narrow-minded fucks.

And you should judge Valerie on the merits of her character and plot (slim as they are, but we are talking about a cRPG here), not through the lenses of your whack-ass identity politics.
Does this really have no limits for you? I was reading a perfectly good sci-fi novel that totally degenerated towards the end into an allegory for the author's tranny surgery fetish, as the protagonist got assimilated into being an alien.
I'm supposed to appreciate that and just ignore the depraved political/sexual motives of the writer, which ultimately are foolish rather than enlightening? NO WAY!

I suppose I could tolerate it if it was one individual's weird ideas... but with this sort of thing it's political, they've copied it from the culture around them. So how much artistic legitimacy does it have when it really isn't an individual cultural work in this aspect but is rather a small part of a civilisation-blanketing propaganda effort? And which rather than representing ideas and morals which have succeeded in history, represents decadence and failure and madness?

An educated liberal will enjoy Hemingway for the great literature it is, while an educated die-hard capitalist should enjoy Grapes of Wrath, and no one should enjoy Ayn Rand regardless of how libertarian they are, not because of her morals or libertarian worldview but because she's a shit writer and Atlas Shrugged is a really boring piece of garbage.
Only Hemingway I read was in school, Mice and Men, where there's ostensibly a terrible moral duty at the end of the book where the protagonist feels guilty having to kill his retarded friend for accidentally killing a woman.
I was outraged and disgusted, why are we supposed to empathise with a homicial 'tard and a caretaker who allowed a woman to be murdered, but then has the gall to feel guilty about killing his 'tard instead of about the actual human that died because of his negligence?
Was Hemingway trolling with that shit? Pretending we should empathise with the tard and the handler and not the murdered woman whereas we're supposed to disagree?
 

Desiderius

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I do and it is. Maybe Paizo wanted to be fooled after beholding all they had made.
I really admire your hopefulness and optimism. And I guess it's possible they subconsciously wanted that.

I'd say it's more likely that they no longer wanted what they originally set out to create enough to stop Owlcat from coming up with their own fresh take.

Woman's prerogative.

And I mean Owlcat is still pretty pozzed, but 1990 poz that they're into was a hell of a lot healthier than 2021 poz.
 

Mortmal

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and yeah gib french sources, google translate works great
I learned it from an history university teacher. You wont get much sources on the internet, its an incredible story full of conspiracies .Not the best one but worth looking at : Jeanne d'Arc : revue par deux "historiens" - Christ Roi (over-blog.com) , Colette Beaune dans Jeanne d’Arc : vérités et légendes, (éd. Perrin, 2008)
You wont see mention of it often cause people wont like it, they prefer the pretty myth of the virgin lady freeing france.It's a common case of hidden history.

Well she is what she is because she's so rare (no doubt inspiring Tolkien's Eowyn regardless of how subconscious that inspiration, but he's Catholic so probably not very).

They're the exception that proves the rule. And yeah as @Lann says in extremis women go to war but Amiri's tribe and Val's family were any but in extremis and Jae's situation was the exact opposite.

Women in armor probably were uncommon but not so rare, Anna kommene(byzantium princess) speaks about meeting some during the crusade, some noble lady in armor fighting with her husband. Then we are only speaking of nobility there was probably a few in the army too, poorly equiped following their guy too. The historians were all from the catholic clergy so they certainly wont mention anything at all about women, nor anything that disregard church views.
 

Grunker

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Does this really have no limits for you? I was reading a perfectly good sci-fi novel that totally degenerated towards the end into an allegory for the author's tranny surgery fetish, as the protagonist got assimilated into being an alien.
I'm supposed to appreciate that and just ignore the depraved political/sexual motives of the writer, which ultimately are foolish rather than enlightening? NO WAY!

I suppose I could tolerate it if it was one individual's weird ideas... but with this sort of thing it's political, they've copied it from the culture around them. So how much artistic legitimacy does it have when it really isn't an individual cultural work in this aspect but is rather a small part of a civilisation-blanketing propaganda effort? And which rather than representing ideas and morals which have succeeded in history, rather represents decadence and failure and madness?

As a rule, no. But most overtly political literature is pretty crappy, modern stuff doubly so. In your example, it sounds like a tacked on thematic component that doesn't flow naturally from the story or the fantasy.

Which I find is the case with a lot of modern literature that attempts to be political before it attempts to be good poetry. Chiefly, "feminist" art.

But Valerie ain't that. She's a completely typical cliché from the dawn of fantasy itself. The same goes for the concept of plate-wearing women in P:K as a whole - they fit completely naturally into the cartoonish high fantasy setting here. Her main crime as a character is being a fairly run-of-the-mill man-girl-proves-herself-to-the-world-but-really-she's-proving-something-to-herself story, but then again: it's cartoonish high fantasy. The floor for our expecations must be low. Of course there is such a thing as a fiction contract, but females in plate armor don’t come close to breaking that considering what else is allowed as part of this fiction’s non-supernatural.

Only Hemingway I read was in school, Mice and Men, where there's ostensibly a terribly moral duty at the end of the book where the protagonist feels guilty having to kill his retarded friend for accidentally killing a woman.
I was outraged and disgusted, why are we supposed to empathise with a homicial 'tard and a caretaker who allowed a woman to be murdered, but then has the gall to feel guilty about killing his 'tard instead of about the actual human that died because of his negligence?
Was Hemingway trolling with that shit?

Of Mice and Men is Steinbeck.
 
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LannTheStupid

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Amiri's tribe and Val's family were anything but in extremis
Well, exactly. Valerie's parents - as true religious zealots - decided to send a girl to the Paladin order to learn how to serve the Goddess of Beauty. Which may not be as stupid as it sounds, because on Golarion gods do exist.

However, her training was enough to earn her a place in a mercenary company (which, presumably, saw actual fights and not only divine service to Shelyn). Also, Valerie's CON is 19. 19! She can handle any physical abuse with ease, and this is, by the way, an important feminine trait. Pregnancy is a hell of a stress on the body.

Amiri as a warrior... I guess you played the game not only for screenshots. No spoilers here, but you should know. On the other hand, Amiri is 2 points stronger than Valerie, so that's that.
 
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gurugeorge

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But Valerie ain't that. She's a completely typical cliché from the dawn of fantasy itself.

lolwhut - what's "typical" about her story in fantasy such that it's a "cliché" exactly? Did fantasies often used to have female characters lecturing their audience about the male gaze?

The same goes for the concept of plate-wearing women in P:K as a whole - they fit completely naturally into the cartoonish high fantasy setting here. Her main crime as a character is being a fairly run-of-the-mill man-girl-proves-herself-to-the-world-but-really-she's-proving-something-to-herself story, but then again: it's cartoonish high fantasy. The floor for our expecations must be low. Of course there is such a thing as a fiction contract, but females in plate armor don’t come close to breaking that considering what else is allowed as part of this fiction’s non-supernatural.

I'd give Valerie's story more credit than that actually. While it starts off as Feminist twaddle, the most interesting part of it is the last part, where she comes to terms with her beauty, when she stops being an asshole to anyone who points it out. That's the part that subverts expectations and shows some intelligence and awareness in the writers. Similarly with Amiri's later resolution - another character that comes across initially as a tiresome Feminist cliché, but whose story becomes quite moving in the end (with a possible ending that's really depressing if you interacted with her a certain way). And I'd join with you in criticizing some Codexians for not giving the writing a chance, so that they can see those aspects of characters that are initially just a turn-off.

But I'd be surprised if there's a similar subtlety in the next game. It'll be more stolidly woke, without the nuance of PFK's writing, pretty much guaranteed. The only reason the writing in PFK has a bit of depth and intelligence is because there's been a hangover of scepticism about the Left, and a residue of artistic and intellectual integrity, in parts of Europe that are less subject to influence from the US. But that's been changing pretty fast and Eastern Europe is on its way to being as woke as the rest of Europe. Everyone has to fall in.

You're proceeding as if everything is as normal, like it was even in the mid-Noughties - you know, writers write what they want, etc. But that's not the situation today. Writers have to write badly because they have to make everything an intersectional teaching moment - if they don't, the eye of Sauron will focus on them and they could be in trouble. Even if in their hearts they know it's bullshit, they can't move, can't breathe, for the social media/HR Stasi Panopticon watching their every move. The artistic world is in a much, much worse condition than you think.

Good writing is bootleg these days, it's something that you might occasionally find squeezed in a crack in the wall of propaganda that people have to put out, on pain of losing social status, or even their jobs.
 

Desiderius

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They wussed out on Val by not giving her a LG option, even though that would have been the “traditional” resolution, as you note these aren’t traditional times. As it is even in the “good” ending she’s still a philistine snob, she’s just “learned” to be less of a cunt about it.

Not as bad as Eder’s quest in Deadfire, and everything you noted is there and good but beauty is transgressive these days so winning one for Shelyn shouldn’t have been asking too much and would have opened up some gameplay options like Reg’s quest did.

As for Wrath yes and no. If you thought Jae’s quest line was brutal…

But Lann’s reconciliation with his mother is everything Eder’s quest wasn’t and really doesn’t fit with your global reign of terror picture. The dipshits running the West into the ground might like that but they may not have that kind of reach.

Cringe is fatal to soft power.
 

gurugeorge

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They wussed out on Val by not giving her a LG option, even though that would have been the “traditional” resolution, as you note these aren’t traditional times. As it is even in the “good” ending she’s still a philistine snob, she’s just “learned” to be less of a cunt about it.

Not as bad as Eder’s quest in Deadfire, and everything you noted is there and good but beauty is transgressive these days so winning one for Shelyn shouldn’t have been asking too much and would have opened up some gameplay options like Reg’s quest did.

As for Wrath yes and no. If you thought Jae’s quest line was brutal…

But Lann’s reconciliation with his mother is everything Eder’s quest wasn’t and really doesn’t fit with your global reign of terror picture. The dipshits running the West into the ground might like that but they may not have that kind of reach.

Cringe is fatal to soft power.

Well that gives me some hope :)
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,892
Location
Ingrija
Why would anyone want their fantasy wommenz to be physically strong?
tumblr_nw6mdhSfql1sds1v2o1_1280.jpg

She's got pretty dangerous thing to use as a dildo.
 

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