KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[MilesBeyond]

Sneak attacks do more than 1d6. I just did 15 points with a heavy crossbow. Each weapon has a sneak/crit multiplier.

Sneak Attacks add 1d6 to your normal attack (plus an additional 1d6 for every other level). The weapon is irrelevant. But yes, weapons have different crit mulitipliers and thresholds.

 

[Tacgnol]

Sneak attacks do more than 1d6. I just did 15 points with a heavy crossbow. Each weapon has a sneak/crit multiplier.

Sneak Attacks add 1d6 to your normal attack (plus an additional 1d6 for every other level). The weapon is irrelevant. But yes, weapons have different crit mulitipliers and thresholds.

They actually add the sneak die to all your attacks, so iterative attacks will also do sneak damage.

That's why hasted rogues are so dangerous on a flanked target.

 

[Kruno]

I really wish there was a manual with this game.

 

[toro]

Conan doesn't strike me as a Barbarian really, let alone a Thief/Rogue. I mean this is only going by the movies, I'm not familiar with any of the other material, but... Just because Arnie sometimes puts on a bit of paint and mostly wears medieval porn star outfits light armor doesn't make him a Barbarian. He never really rages at all, he makes those stupid Arnie sounds but he doesn't actually go into a rage.

He also uses a wide variety of weapons, uses strategy sometimes such as the fight against those guys on horseback, he goes for trips and stuff, he uses shields sometimes.

He strikes me as a typical Fighter more than anything else. Meh, I could be wrong.

Conan the Barbarian by Robert E. Howard was first adapted into comics in 1952 in Mexico. Marvel Comics began publishing Conan comics with the series Conan the Barbarian in 1970. Dark Horse Comics published Conan from 2003 to 2018.

It's in the fucking title

 

[Grampy_Bone]

People saying "roll better characters" or git gud aren't getting it. The developers either didn't understand the CR (challenge rating) system, they didn't care, or they intentionally made this game balls hard.

I'm at the Sycamore dungeon at level 2. There are kobolds and mites with 3-4 levels in ranger, rogue, cleric, fighter, etc. all over this dungeon, in groups of 6-8. The party isn't min/maxed but the enemies sure are. Kobolds with sneak attacks, +4 favored enemy human, clerics who spam Hold person and channel negative energy, etc. DMs really aren't supposed to do this. Character levels are supposed to be somewhat rare, if every goblin has levels of fighter or ranger you are abusing the system.

Too be clear, this isn't a factor of tactics, it's just math. You might think a level 2 party can handle CR 2 encounters, but that's an even match. Meaning a win should consume at least 50% of your HP and spells, and has a good chance of dropping 1 or 2 party members. For a 4 person party, a normal fight is supposed to be a CR-1 or CR-2 fight, weaker than the PCs. A CR equivalent fight poses a real threat, a CR+1 fight is a significant challenge. CR+2 or more is supposed to be a boss fight only, something the party would need to be in top shape to handle, with prep time and buff spells, just to hope to win.

Guess what? The CR of the fights in the Sycamore dungeon are all 4-6. For a level 2 party. So every battle is a boss fight. That's nuts. If I ran a game this way, my players would spit in my Mountain Dew. Or cut my brakes. This is the "normal" difficulty level too.

D&D characters are pretty fragile from levels 1-3, you really have to go easy on them.

*edit* Cael has corrected my explanation of the CR system below, it's not quite as bad as I originally made it out, but the fights are still way out-of-depth.

 

[MilesBeyond]

I really wish there was a manual with this game.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

 

[Curratum]

I really wish there was a manual with this game.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

Let me fix that for you:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/

 

[Shadenuat]

How do cleave/cleave finishing/greater cleave feats work in practice in this game? Are they good/worthwhile or waste of feats?
I'm asking about this particular rtwp game not about d&d/pathfinder in general.

Cleave allows a base attack against an enemy & extra enemy near it at penalty of -2 to armor class
greater cleave places no limits on how many you can attack but until first miss
finishing cleave works as expected i.e. on kill extra attack. it's just a passive, similar to NWN.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I really wish there was a manual with this game.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

Let me fix that for you:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/

...except they cut many things so using a pnp document is extremely misleading.
ToEE had an ingame manual 15 years ago that was fully integrated into the game itself. This should be standard now.

 

[Curratum]

I really wish there was a manual with this game.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

Let me fix that for you:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/

...except they cut many things so using a pnp document is extremely misleading.
ToEE had an ingame manual 15 years ago that was fully integrated into the game itself. This should be standard now.

Too bad the game itself was an ugly, buggy, unplayable mess, huh?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I really wish there was a manual with this game.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

Let me fix that for you:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/

...except they cut many things so using a pnp document is extremely misleading.
ToEE had an ingame manual 15 years ago that was fully integrated into the game itself. This should be standard now.

Too bad the game itself was an ugly, buggy, unplayable mess, huh?

I was able to actually finish ToEE. Can't say the same about this game.

 

[Serus]

People saying "roll better characters" or git gud aren't getting it. The developers either didn't understand the CR (challenge rating) system, they didn't care, or they intentionally made this game balls hard.

I'm at the Sycamore dungeon at level 2. There are kobolds and mites with 3-4 levels in ranger, rogue, cleric, fighter, etc. all over this dungeon, in groups of 6-8. The party isn't min/maxed but the enemies sure are. Kobolds with sneak attacks, +4 favored enemy human, clerics who spam Hold person and channel negative energy, etc. DMs really aren't supposed to do this. Character levels are supposed to be somewhat rare, if every goblin has levels of fighter or ranger you are abusing the system.

Too be clear, this isn't a factor of tactics, it's just math. You might think a level 2 party can handle CR 2 encounters, but that's an even match. Meaning a win should consume at least 50% of your HP and spells, and has a good chance of dropping 1 or 2 party members. For a 4 person party, a normal fight is supposed to be a CR-1 or CR-2 fight, weaker than the PCs. A CR equivalent fight poses a real threat, a CR+1 fight is a significant challenge. CR+2 or more is supposed to be a boss fight only, something the party would need to be in top shape to handle, with prep time and buff spells, just to hope to win.

Guess what? The CR of the fights in the Sycamore dungeon are all 4-6. For a level 2 party. So every battle is a boss fight. That's nuts. If I ran a game this way, my players would spit in my Mountain Dew. Or cut my brakes. This is the "normal" difficulty level too.

D&D characters are pretty fragile from levels 1-3, you really have to go easy on them.

You talk only of one side of the problem. The other is that those kobolds will probably act like retards in game while in the hand of a DM, they can be smart. In addition you are not going to reload in pnp if something goes wrong. Making them 1:1 from pnp = EASIER than it is supposed to be in pnp. It's really a loss/loss situation. The only good way to deal with the problem would be to actually make an effort and write good AI scripts for enemies and only then copy them from pnp. But that's easier said than done.

 

[zapotec]

People saying "roll better characters" or git gud aren't getting it. The developers either didn't understand the CR (challenge rating) system, they didn't care, or they intentionally made this game balls hard.

I'm at the Sycamore dungeon at level 2. There are kobolds and mites with 3-4 levels in ranger, rogue, cleric, fighter, etc. all over this dungeon, in groups of 6-8. The party isn't min/maxed but the enemies sure are. Kobolds with sneak attacks, +4 favored enemy human, clerics who spam Hold person and channel negative energy, etc. DMs really aren't supposed to do this. Character levels are supposed to be somewhat rare, if every goblin has levels of fighter or ranger you are abusing the system.

Too be clear, this isn't a factor of tactics, it's just math. You might think a level 2 party can handle CR 2 encounters, but that's an even match. Meaning a win should consume at least 50% of your HP and spells, and has a good chance of dropping 1 or 2 party members. For a 4 person party, a normal fight is supposed to be a CR-1 or CR-2 fight, weaker than the PCs. A CR equivalent fight poses a real threat, a CR+1 fight is a significant challenge. CR+2 or more is supposed to be a boss fight only, something the party would need to be in top shape to handle, with prep time and buff spells, just to hope to win.

Guess what? The CR of the fights in the Sycamore dungeon are all 4-6. For a level 2 party. So every battle is a boss fight. That's nuts. If I ran a game this way, my players would spit in my Mountain Dew. Or cut my brakes. This is the "normal" difficulty level too.

D&D characters are pretty fragile from levels 1-3, you really have to go easy on them.

yes i am reading the adventure path from which the game is taken, and except their leaders, the kobolds and mites are just of the normal variety

 

[aweigh]

Never had a single bug with ToEE. In fact, I never had a single bug with any of Troika's games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

People saying "roll better characters" or git gud aren't getting it. The developers either didn't understand the CR (challenge rating) system, they didn't care, or they intentionally made this game balls hard.

I'm at the Sycamore dungeon at level 2. There are kobolds and mites with 3-4 levels in ranger, rogue, cleric, fighter, etc. all over this dungeon, in groups of 6-8. The party isn't min/maxed but the enemies sure are. Kobolds with sneak attacks, +4 favored enemy human, clerics who spam Hold person and channel negative energy, etc. DMs really aren't supposed to do this. Character levels are supposed to be somewhat rare, if every goblin has levels of fighter or ranger you are abusing the system.

Too be clear, this isn't a factor of tactics, it's just math. You might think a level 2 party can handle CR 2 encounters, but that's an even match. Meaning a win should consume at least 50% of your HP and spells, and has a good chance of dropping 1 or 2 party members. For a 4 person party, a normal fight is supposed to be a CR-1 or CR-2 fight, weaker than the PCs. A CR equivalent fight poses a real threat, a CR+1 fight is a significant challenge. CR+2 or more is supposed to be a boss fight only, something the party would need to be in top shape to handle, with prep time and buff spells, just to hope to win.

Guess what? The CR of the fights in the Sycamore dungeon are all 4-6. For a level 2 party. So every battle is a boss fight. That's nuts. If I ran a game this way, my players would spit in my Mountain Dew. Or cut my brakes. This is the "normal" difficulty level too.

D&D characters are pretty fragile from levels 1-3, you really have to go easy on them.

You talk only of one side of the problem. The other is that those kobolds will probably act like retards in game while in the hand of a DM, they can be smart. In addition you are not going to reload in pnp if something goes wrong. Making them 1:1 from pnp = EASIER than it is supposed to be in pnp. It's really a loss/loss situation. The only good way to deal with the problem would be to actually make an effort and write good AI scripts for enemies and only then copy them from pnp. But that's easier said than done.

balancing a game around savescumming is stupid

 

[Serus]

How do cleave/cleave finishing/greater cleave feats work in practice in this game? Are they good/worthwhile or waste of feats?
I'm asking about this particular rtwp game not about d&d/pathfinder in general.

Cleave allows a base attack against an enemy & extra enemy near it at penalty of -2 to armor class
greater cleave places no limits on how many you can attack but until first miss
finishing cleave works as expected i.e. on kill extra attack. it's just a passive, similar to NWN.

F***, not this again. I can read the description in-game, thank you Sherlock. How it works in practice, in this game, with the encounters as they are set up, within a RTwP system - this is the question. In turn based (like in KotC) I can position the dude with the feat easily so I know it will work well, but here - not so sure about it.

 

[Cael]

Sneak attacks do more than 1d6. I just did 15 points with a heavy crossbow. Each weapon has a sneak/crit multiplier.

Sneak attack adds 1d6. With a heavy crossbow, that is 1d10+1d6. More if you crit as well.

 

[Serus]

People saying "roll better characters" or git gud aren't getting it. The developers either didn't understand the CR (challenge rating) system, they didn't care, or they intentionally made this game balls hard.

I'm at the Sycamore dungeon at level 2. There are kobolds and mites with 3-4 levels in ranger, rogue, cleric, fighter, etc. all over this dungeon, in groups of 6-8. The party isn't min/maxed but the enemies sure are. Kobolds with sneak attacks, +4 favored enemy human, clerics who spam Hold person and channel negative energy, etc. DMs really aren't supposed to do this. Character levels are supposed to be somewhat rare, if every goblin has levels of fighter or ranger you are abusing the system.

Too be clear, this isn't a factor of tactics, it's just math. You might think a level 2 party can handle CR 2 encounters, but that's an even match. Meaning a win should consume at least 50% of your HP and spells, and has a good chance of dropping 1 or 2 party members. For a 4 person party, a normal fight is supposed to be a CR-1 or CR-2 fight, weaker than the PCs. A CR equivalent fight poses a real threat, a CR+1 fight is a significant challenge. CR+2 or more is supposed to be a boss fight only, something the party would need to be in top shape to handle, with prep time and buff spells, just to hope to win.

Guess what? The CR of the fights in the Sycamore dungeon are all 4-6. For a level 2 party. So every battle is a boss fight. That's nuts. If I ran a game this way, my players would spit in my Mountain Dew. Or cut my brakes. This is the "normal" difficulty level too.

D&D characters are pretty fragile from levels 1-3, you really have to go easy on them.

You talk only of one side of the problem. The other is that those kobolds will probably act like retards in game while in the hand of a DM, they can be smart. In addition you are not going to reload in pnp if something goes wrong. Making them 1:1 from pnp = EASIER than it is supposed to be in pnp. It's really a loss/loss situation. The only good way to deal with the problem would be to actually make an effort and write good AI scripts for enemies and only then copy them from pnp. But that's easier said than done.

balancing a game around savescumming is stupid

Thay might true (or not) but the point about the bad AI and AI enemies making very ineffective decision in combat compared to enemies "led" by a DM in pnp is still valid.

 

[Israfael]

F***, not this again. I can read the description in-game, thank you Sherlock. How it works in practice, in this game, with the encounters as they are set up, within a RTwP system - this is the question. In turn based (like in KotC) I can position the dude with the feat easily so I know it will work well, but here - not so sure about it.

Isn't it obvious? If it's the same as in 3.5 games, it's kinda useless, unless you like to kill a lot of 1HD enemies in one turn. Does not help agaist proper opponents, and you can kill a bunch of low-HD enemies without a hitch anyway (aoe cone spells / ice storm etc)

 

[Grampy_Bone]

while in the hand of a DM, they can be smart

Since when are Int 8-10 creatures supposed to be smart and have brilliant tactics? A battle with goblins and kobolds is a trash fight, a warm-up for real battles. Not a duel to the death with diabolical masterminds.

 

[Shadenuat]

How do cleave/cleave finishing/greater cleave feats work in practice in this game? Are they good/worthwhile or waste of feats?
I'm asking about this particular rtwp game not about d&d/pathfinder in general.

Cleave allows a base attack against an enemy & extra enemy near it at penalty of -2 to armor class
greater cleave places no limits on how many you can attack but until first miss
finishing cleave works as expected i.e. on kill extra attack. it's just a passive, similar to NWN.

F***, not this again. I can read the description in-game, thank you Sherlock. How it works in practice, in this game, with the encounters as they are set up, within a RTwP system - this is the question. In turn based (like in KotC) I can position the dude with the feat easily so I know it will work well, but here - not so sure about it.

Try it and find out, moron.

 

[Serus]

F***, not this again. I can read the description in-game, thank you Sherlock. How it works in practice, in this game, with the encounters as they are set up, within a RTwP system - this is the question. In turn based (like in KotC) I can position the dude with the feat easily so I know it will work well, but here - not so sure about it.

Isn't it obvious? If it's the same as in 3.5 games, it's kinda useless, unless you like to kill a lot of 1HD enemies in one turn. Does not help agaist proper opponents, and you can kill a bunch of low-HD enemies without a hitch anyway (aoe cone spells / ice storm etc)

I don't agree about it being always "useless" in 3.5 - it certainly was useful in Knights of the Chalice when using a 2 knights + cleric + mage setup. AOE spells are not growing on trees at low levels. Also we are not talking about IE games where you can rest at any time without much trouble and always have all the spells you might need memorized.

 

[Cael]

People saying "roll better characters" or git gud aren't getting it. The developers either didn't understand the CR (challenge rating) system, they didn't care, or they intentionally made this game balls hard.

I'm at the Sycamore dungeon at level 2. There are kobolds and mites with 3-4 levels in ranger, rogue, cleric, fighter, etc. all over this dungeon, in groups of 6-8. The party isn't min/maxed but the enemies sure are. Kobolds with sneak attacks, +4 favored enemy human, clerics who spam Hold person and channel negative energy, etc. DMs really aren't supposed to do this. Character levels are supposed to be somewhat rare, if every goblin has levels of fighter or ranger you are abusing the system.

Too be clear, this isn't a factor of tactics, it's just math. You might think a level 2 party can handle CR 2 encounters, but that's an even match. Meaning a win should consume at least 50% of your HP and spells, and has a good chance of dropping 1 or 2 party members. For a 4 person party, a normal fight is supposed to be a CR-1 or CR-2 fight, weaker than the PCs. A CR equivalent fight poses a real threat, a CR+1 fight is a significant challenge. CR+2 or more is supposed to be a boss fight only, something the party would need to be in top shape to handle, with prep time and buff spells, just to hope to win.

Guess what? The CR of the fights in the Sycamore dungeon are all 4-6. For a level 2 party. So every battle is a boss fight. That's nuts. If I ran a game this way, my players would spit in my Mountain Dew. Or cut my brakes. This is the "normal" difficulty level too.

D&D characters are pretty fragile from levels 1-3, you really have to go easy on them.

DnD 3.5 is centred around an equal level encounter level to your CR taking up 1/4 of your resources, taking into account a 3.5 party is 4 people, not the traditional 6.

That means if your party is average level 2, then it should be able to take on 4x EL 2 encounters before requiring rest. With 6 characters, it can be extrapolated that you can take on about 6 such encounters. It is not the 50% unless it is a 1 on 1 fight.

If you are thinking that no DMs really do this, may I introduce you to Tucker's Kobolds.

You don't even want to know what I did to my players with a bog standard CR4 brown bear, whom I affectionately named Bob.

 

[Cael]

while in the hand of a DM, they can be smart

Since when are Int 8-10 creatures supposed to be smart and have brilliant tactics? A battle with goblins and kobolds is a trash fight, a warm-up for real battles. Not a duel to the death with diabolical masterminds.

Kobolds have -4 Str and -2 Con (and +2 Dex). They are as smart as humans. And they canonically are trap masters. A battle with kobolds in their warrens is a fucking recipe for disaster.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

If you are thinking that no DMs really do this, may I introduce you to Tucker's Kobolds.

Haha, sure, but that was to challenge 12th level 1/2e characters, who are normally godlike. Not a bunch of level 2 neophytes.

I've made "elite orc" raiding parties and such to challenge high level characters but I'd never hand out ranger and cleric levels to garbage-level monsters the way this game does.