Game News Pathfinder: The Dragon's Demand officially announced, coming to Kickstarter soon

[MerchantKing]

Not a single white person.

And no Gnomes.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

also bonus points if there are tragic elements in your Dark Fantasy stories

There is, it's Pathfinder.

 

[Reinhardt]

Not a single white person.

And no Gnomes.

what do you mean? there is literally green-skinned (((gnome))) on screens

 

[Luke Scull]

and the stories I wrote for Warhammer: Age of Sigmar.

I'm sorry, it must have been dreadful being forced to write for AoS. AoS has stories? Someone cares about AoS' setting? I'm amazed.

Pathfinder is diverse by design - I think it's a strength of the setting, but it doesn't really matter what I think, because my job is to bring the truest representation of Pathfinder to a videogame. That's what you do when you're entrusted with an IP.

Pathfinder isn't exactly diverse by design. Its initial setup was essentially tryhard 3.5 with a shitton of "dark fantasy" "edgy stuff" inside, the initial adventure paths were chock-full of stuff that contemporary Paizo would find unpalatable to the extreme. Bar maybe the God of child molesters, pity they retconned that, it would be a hit for their audiences nowadays. Paizo became .... fruity in the following decades, but their contemporary hand-wringing about the Culture War is boring, I agree. The Paizo setting isn't worth of much respect tho, it's a schizo "whatever it goes" setting that runs on "whatever it goes", the weekly fetish of the module designer and whatever they could salvage from 3.x. I've never met anyone genuinely liking Golarion and its kitchen sink approach.

De gustibus, tho.

Being charitable, the graphics are cartoony and childish at best, but I'm most curious about the system. PF2 didn't exactly get the most warm welcome (being utterly destroyed by D&D 5th isn't exactly its fault tho) but I've found it a clunky system, particularly in chargen and in the endless fetish for feats. Some combat ideas were nice however. Are you going to introduce mechanical changes or we'll get an Owlcat-style "faithful" adaptation?

AoS does indeed have a novel line, though they sell poorly in comparison to the 40k novels. I only wrote a couple of short stories. They then offered me a novel, for which they were willing to pay roughly one tenth of the advance I received for the translation rights for my books in French. I politely declined and that was that. I'm still open to the possibility of working on the setting in future - I particularly liked the Destruction faction and the orruks.

We're sticking as closely as possible to the official rules unless it's patently a bad fit for a CRPG.

 

[Luke Scull]

Art is pretty subjective. Technically? Probably not, but there are some incredible-looking older games. I understand it won't be for everyone, and that's OK.

Why this style in particular? I can understand wanting to use miniature but why this cartoonish light hearted style?

Is it required from Paizo to have this style?

I wasn't involved in the art and I can't speak for Paizo. There are very obvious reasons for going with this particular art style, some of them to do with budget, but those questions are better answered by Alan or one of our art leads. Creating an CRPG with the depth, reactivity, and storytelling of BG3 is my focus.

 

[Luke Scull]

Alan was the producer of the original Baldur's Gate: Throne of Bhaal, as well as Neverwinter Nights. We've been doing this for decades. My fantasy trilogy is officially the 20th most grimdark of all time.

my job is to bring the truest representation of Pathfinder to a videogame.

Hold on. As a Pathfinder: Kingmaker fanatic, see:

Spoiler

This looks interesting enough. Though I'm more intrigued on two main things: 1) How much of the ruleset do you plan on adapting (meaning how many classes, how many class kits, how much of the combat rules will you be adding, how much of 2e is going to be in the game basically). 2) Since this is Pathfinder how "grimdark" is your story going to be. I haven't really bothered to read too deeply into Pathfinder since its stories annoy me to an extent (Wrath of the Righteous gave me a severe head concussion with its horrible writing) so I don't know how dark fantasy you can spin with this setting but I'm interested nonetheless on your ideas for the game; also bonus points if there are tragic elements in your Dark Fantasy stories.

That's a lot of hours. I think I did every sidequest I could find and ended up around 150 hours. PFK doesn't get enough credit: it's a fantastic game. I think Ill replay it again while the Kickstarter campaign runs.

We're aiming for a comprehensive implementation of the rules. More details when the Kickstarter launches, but I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

The amount of "grimdark" will fit the tone of the adventure and the setting. This is probably the "lightest" thing I've ever written: my characters all tend to die horribly and tragically, no one gets a happy ending, etc. I'll be making a conscious effort to leaven the atsmophere, lighten the tone, include plenty of humour, and what have you. Everyone will probably still die horribly, particularly the romantic intererests, but this time there may be something akin to a glimmer of hope along the way...

 

[PunchYouInTheFace]

hours

Given Ossian's involvement with this IP and your active participation, is it reasonable to expect a further delay in the release of "Blade of Netheril"?

 

[Luke Scull]

hours

Given Ossian's involvement with this IP and your active participation, is it reasonable to expect a further delay in the release of "Blade of Netheril"?

The situation with The Blades of Netheril is complicated. Doom of Icewind Dale is finished and waiting for certain interested parties to sign off on "stuff." Exactly how that pans out will define how the rest of the campaign is released - it will either be in six smaller chapters or two larger, expansion-sized chapters. I'll probably need to bring in help in order to get them finished in a reasonable timeframe, but they will be finished. I just can't say exactly when.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Art is pretty subjective. Technically? Probably not, but there are some incredible-looking older games. I understand it won't be for everyone, and that's OK.

Why this style in particular? I can understand wanting to use miniature but why this cartoonish light hearted style?

Is it required from Paizo to have this style?

I wasn't involved in the art and I can't speak for Paizo. There are very obvious reasons for going with this particular art style, some of them to do with budget, but those questions are better answered by Alan or one of our art leads. Creating an CRPG with the depth, reactivity, and storytelling of BG3 is my focus.

Well would be glad if you can ask them for us. That being said I understand budget, I understand miniature. I still don't understand why "goofy and cartoonish"

You can definitely make a miniature with limited color pallete that has some seriousness in it

That being said Osian made great NWN modules so I still keep my expectation moderately high but I am just wondering if this choice of style will hurt the project more than it helps it

 

[Mortmal]

You jest - but BG3, except with Pathfinder and a miniature art style, is the goal. I know some of you won't like the chosen art style, but I suggest you give it a chance. We all know that replicating something with BG3's scope using the same level of graphical fidelity is pretty much impossible for any studio, never mind an indie, which is why we're trying something new. That doesn't mean we can't seek to match BG3 in the things that truly make a great roleplaying game.

All this culture war stuff bores the hell out of me, so to put a marker down very early on, as the game's writer, I'll simply say this: my goal is to to tell the best story possible while respecting the setting, both in tone and lore.

You’ve pinpointed one of the biggest problems in the game industry. You're telling us to give it a try even if we don’t like the art style, but that’s not how things work. To be successful, you need to cater to the taste of your customers—you know, the fat white male everyone hates in the media, for example. Apparently, it’s no longer common sense to please the guy with the wallet. No one is going to spend money giving you the benefit of the doubt if it looks childish and amateurish, especially in an oversaturated market. Do you have an existing customer base large enough that likes this style? I don’t think so, because that audience doesn’t really exist. The mainstream prefers much more classical and well-proven art styles—BG3 is a good example—and you don’t need high poly counts or professional animations to achieve that; it’s all about presentation.

Then, you say you’re tired of the culture war, but you’ve picked a ruleset with lore known to be woke. Whether you like it or not, that’s just how it is. It’s very queer- and LGBT-friendly, which isn’t that popular with the mainstream audience and remains quite niche. On top of that, you add fuel to the fire with the trailer by introducing another black elf character. We already saw how poorly that was received with LOTR, so there’s no need to explain how it will be received again. It’s a disaster waiting to happen, like Concord, though on a much smaller scale—or like the upcoming Veilguard and Assassin’s Creed trainwreck.

Additionally, the scenario seems very generic, and the mobile game vibe is so strong that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. You should consider cutting your losses or drastically changing the style.

 

[MerchantKing]

Not a single white person.

And no Gnomes.

what do you mean? there is literally green-skinned (((gnome))) on screens

That's not a Gnome. That's a Goblin. Goblins are not Gnomes.

 

[mediocrepoet]

the mobile game vibe is so strong that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. You should consider cutting your losses or drastically changing the style.

It's possible that I said I liked the presentation while under the influence after an evening out and was actually looking at screenshots of Warlock of Firetop Mountain. Possibly.

 

[Luke Scull]

the mobile game vibe is so strong that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. You should consider cutting your losses or drastically changing the style.

It's possible that I said I liked the presentation while under the influence after an evening out and was actually looking at screenshots of Warlock of Firetop Mountain. Possibly.

Too late. You're now morally obliged to back the project at the highest tier.

 

[Luke Scull]

You jest - but BG3, except with Pathfinder and a miniature art style, is the goal. I know some of you won't like the chosen art style, but I suggest you give it a chance. We all know that replicating something with BG3's scope using the same level of graphical fidelity is pretty much impossible for any studio, never mind an indie, which is why we're trying something new. That doesn't mean we can't seek to match BG3 in the things that truly make a great roleplaying game.

All this culture war stuff bores the hell out of me, so to put a marker down very early on, as the game's writer, I'll simply say this: my goal is to to tell the best story possible while respecting the setting, both in tone and lore.

You’ve pinpointed one of the biggest problems in the game industry. You're telling us to give it a try even if we don’t like the art style, but that’s not how things work. To be successful, you need to cater to the taste of your customers—you know, the fat white male everyone hates in the media, for example. Apparently, it’s no longer common sense to please the guy with the wallet. No one is going to spend money giving you the benefit of the doubt if it looks childish and amateurish, especially in an oversaturated market. Do you have an existing customer base large enough that likes this style? I don’t think so, because that audience doesn’t really exist. The mainstream prefers much more classical and well-proven art styles—BG3 is a good example—and you don’t need high poly counts or professional animations to achieve that; it’s all about presentation.

Then, you say you’re tired of the culture war, but you’ve picked a ruleset with lore known to be woke. Whether you like it or not, that’s just how it is. It’s very queer- and LGBT-friendly, which isn’t that popular with the mainstream audience and remains quite niche. On top of that, you add fuel to the fire with the trailer by introducing another black elf character. We already saw how poorly that was received with LOTR, so there’s no need to explain how it will be received again. It’s a disaster waiting to happen, like Concord, though on a much smaller scale—or like the upcoming Veilguard and Assassin’s Creed trainwreck.

Additionally, the scenario seems very generic, and the mobile game vibe is so strong that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. You should consider cutting your losses or drastically changing the style.

"Fucking straight white males, dominating the industry. It's time to give everyone else a chance!" *Calls Sweet Baby Inc*

"Fucking straight white males, writing for this woke game! You should know better! Go write for one of those incredibly successful right-wing, exclusionary fantasy settings instead!"

Fucking straight white male, after realizing twenty years of writing in various settings and grafting like a motherfucker gets him nothing but anger from one direction and contempt from the other, realizing his only chance of making money is to go it completely alone as an indie and somehow become that one in a million shot, while also not being to take calculated risks because the "mainstream audience" probably won't like it:

"Fuck."


-



I'll tell you a story about an editor who signed up an unknown author named Luke Scull. It was his first attempt at a novel, and she signed him anyway because he was as talented as fuck, but that's not the point of this story. No, the point is that a few months previous, a manuscript had turned up on her desk called Fifty Shades of Grey. She, and many other editors, passed on it because "the audience for it didn't really exist." I'm glad she did, because if she hadn't, there probably wouldn't have been space for my manuscript on her desk, what with all the piles of money lying around...

You (and everyone else) are entitled to not like the art, of course, and I'm being mostly facetious because I'm sick and can't concentrate on any actual writing, but rather than dire claims about impending disaster - trust me, even if the Kickstarter fails, I'll survive - let's wait and see. I agree that we could improve on the way we've presented the game, and we are making efforts to ensure this is addressed.

 

[Fedora Master]

Don't be Owlcat. Make sure you can actually pull off a project like this and THEN maybe think about homo-fagging it up.

 

[Luke Scull]

Don't be Owlcat. Make sure you can actually pull off a project like this and THEN maybe think about homo-fagging it up.

If we can be Owlcat, I will be delighted. Of course, I won't show it other than with a frown and a nod. But I will be.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

a manuscript had turned up on her desk called Fifty Shades of Grey. She, and many other editors, passed on it because "the audience for it didn't really exist."

What a load of crap. It's like saying Sims like games don't have audience. lol Just looking at best selling books the year before 50 Shades will tell you that these types of books are one of the most popular ones.

 

[Morality Games]

This isn't necessarily dead on arrival for me since I like board game aesthetics and low level D&D, but full character creation is the bare minimum for tabletop ruleset based cRPGs.

 

[Mortmal]

I'll tell you a story about an editor who signed up an unknown author named Luke Scull. It was his first attempt at a novel, and she signed him anyway because he was as talented as fuck, but that's not the point of this story. No, the point is that a few months previous, a manuscript had turned up on her desk called Fifty Shades of Grey. She, and many other editors, passed on it because "the audience for it didn't really exist." I'm glad she did, because if she hadn't, there probably wouldn't have been space for my manuscript on her desk, what with all the piles of money lying around...
You (and everyone else) is entitled to not like the art, of course, and I'm being mostly facetious because I'm sick and can't concentrate on any actual writing, but rather than dire claims about impending disaster - trust me, even if the Kickstarter fails, I'll survive - let's wait and see. I agree that we could improve on the way we've presented the game, and we are making efforts to ensure this is addressed.

The things are not quite comparable: on one hand, the opinion of an editor living in their bubble and inner circle, who still hasn't realized that romance novels sell very well, and that therefore 'mommy porn' has a chance to succeed. On the other hand, the opinion of a player who knows the field, frequents role-playing game clubs, and has a grounded perspective, able to state with certainty that the hobby is still practiced by 90% straight men, and regardless of skin color, the expectations are the same – which is not what is being offered to us by Pathfinder's Dragon Demand.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Mortmal Out of curiosity, are you reacting to anything in particular besides the colour palette and visuals?

 

[Pink Eye]

but full character creation is the bare minimum for tabletop ruleset based cRPGs.

This and also the combat rules need to be implemented fully and faithfully; in Owlcat's games not all the combat rules from Pathfinder are implemented properly, worse, some are weirdly homebrewed to work in their real time based gameplay.

 

[Gargaune]

Luke Scull, will DD be strictly singleplayer or is co-op in? I'm not usually interested in multiplayer but I think it might appeal to my former D&D group, get the gang back together.

And what's the technical platform, especially asking about modding capabilities? Maybe not something you can address now but worth covering for the Kickstarter.

 

[Roguey]

Don't be Owlcat. Make sure you can actually pull off a project like this and THEN maybe think about homo-fagging it up.

It's much smaller in scope than an adventure path, I don't see why they wouldn't.

 

[Reinhardt]

Not a single white person.

And no Gnomes.

what do you mean? there is literally green-skinned (((gnome))) on screens

That's not a Gnome. That's a Goblin. Goblins are not Gnomes.

nose tells another story

 

[Mortmal]

Mortmal Out of curiosity, are you reacting to anything in particular besides the colour palette and visuals?

The color palette, the graphic style, and honestly, I can't stand the uninspired World of Warcraft-like graphics anymore, it’s getting on my nerves. It’s even more childish than Pathfinder’s style, which is already not great. And the 'inclusive' but without you pre-made group composition that we’re seeing more and more often... I tend to be hesitant when it comes to getting eliminated.