Game News Pathfinder: The Dragon's Demand officially announced, coming to Kickstarter soon

[MerchantKing]

Not a single white person.

And no Gnomes.

what do you mean? there is literally green-skinned (((gnome))) on screens

That's not a Gnome. That's a Goblin. Goblins are not Gnomes.

nose tells another story

So you're saying that you're a Gnome?

 

[Reinhardt]

should i post my bb inventory screens again?

 

[Luke Scull]

I'll tell you a story about an editor who signed up an unknown author named Luke Scull. It was his first attempt at a novel, and she signed him anyway because he was as talented as fuck, but that's not the point of this story. No, the point is that a few months previous, a manuscript had turned up on her desk called Fifty Shades of Grey. She, and many other editors, passed on it because "the audience for it didn't really exist." I'm glad she did, because if she hadn't, there probably wouldn't have been space for my manuscript on her desk, what with all the piles of money lying around...
You (and everyone else) is entitled to not like the art, of course, and I'm being mostly facetious because I'm sick and can't concentrate on any actual writing, but rather than dire claims about impending disaster - trust me, even if the Kickstarter fails, I'll survive - let's wait and see. I agree that we could improve on the way we've presented the game, and we are making efforts to ensure this is addressed.

The things are not quite comparable: on one hand, the opinion of an editor living in their bubble and inner circle, who still hasn't realized that romance novels sell very well, and that therefore 'mommy porn' has a chance to succeed. On the other hand, the opinion of a player who knows the field, frequents role-playing game clubs, and has a grounded perspective, able to state with certainty that the hobby is still practiced by 90% straight men, and regardless of skin color, the expectations are the same – which is not what is being offered to us by Pathfinder's Dragon Demand.

The market will ultimately decide whether the product is able to meet the expectations of enough people to make it worthwhile. We'll find out hopefully in the next few weeks.

I think your calculations are off - I'm not sure where you live, and I'm pulling estimates out of my ass here, too, but globally I'd guess the split is something like 70/30 now. Could be wrong. I'll concede that the promotional imagery did not feature much in the way of strong male characters, but they will feature in the game itself. I'm a fan of grimdark and heroic fantasy, traditional masculine heroic archetypes, etc. I've been writing them for longer than many Codexers have been alive.

That said, this is a Paizo product, and it will therefore reflect Paizo values and honour the established lore. That's the approach every writer should take when they're invited into someone else's yard.

 

[Luke Scull]

Luke Scull, will DD be strictly singleplayer or is co-op in? I'm not usually interested in multiplayer but I think it might appeal to my former D&D group, get the gang back together.

And what's the technical platform, especially asking about modding capabilities? Maybe not something you can address now but worth covering for the Kickstarter.

Single player only. Multiplayer is something I'd like to for us to do, but probably not right now.

I'd love to be able to answer your questions, but I think they're probably best answered by our technical lead. Feel free to post on the Kickstarter page once it goes live!

 

[Mortmal]

The market will ultimately decide whether the product is able to meet the expectations of enough people to make it worthwhile. We'll find out hopefully in the next few weeks.

We'll see. I'll have some 'I told you so' memes ready by then.

I think your calculations are off - I'm not sure where you live, and I'm pulling estimates out of my ass here, too, but globally I'd guess the split is something like 70/30 now. Could be wrong. I'll concede that the promotional imagery did not feature much in the way of strong male characters, but they will feature in the game itself. I'm a fan of grimdark and heroic fantasy, traditional masculine heroic archetypes, etc. I've been writing them for longer than many Codexers have been alive.
That said, this is a Paizo product, and it will therefore reflect Paizo values and honour the established lore. That's the approach every writer should take when they're invited into someone else's yard.

So you like the same stuff as us, but why force yourself into something so generic and lighthearted? There's nothing stopping you from making a slightly more grimdark Pathfinder campaign, as long as you keep all the humans with funny hats they call ancestries ( no one roleplays them any different way than humans) and the 20-gold sex change potions. No one will give you trouble at paizo.

 

[Pink Eye]

For the record I'm not into the Culture War stuff, I barely post in the politics subforum for this place; but I'm in support of Mortmal's point. I'm kind tired of watching Netflix (Witcher's Anime adaptions for instance where they had black people in a Slavic culture being voiced by some British people; or that recent Castleviania shit where the black dude was some weird ass bisexual); or playing games and seeing tokenism characters forced into random roles in order to play lip service to diversity whilst being written by a dysfunctional liberal who doesn't know squat about the culture they're representing. As a North African who grew up in the shittiest parts of Florida I'm super tired of folks pretending to be for this shit in order to appease some mentally unstable group that barely represents the populace; and yes these groups don't represent the majority as is evidenced by that failure that is Concord.

All I want is some honest to God waifus that look attractive, are written well enough, aren't offensively bad to my right leaning sensibilities, aren't some weird ass gender fluid quadriplegic that celebrates mental disorders - I have family members that suffer from that shit and I don't think we should be celebrating that shit, in contrast to what some game developers or twitter folks believe. Also some honest to god masculine males that represent the virtues of what it is to be a strong male: Strength, Determination, Confidence, Drive, and so on - you know, traditional masculinity values, and not some weird ass values that harms the mind of a young male and ends up confusing their sexual identity.

 

[Luke Scull]

The market will ultimately decide whether the product is able to meet the expectations of enough people to make it worthwhile. We'll find out hopefully in the next few weeks.

We'll see. I'll have some 'I told you so' memes ready by then.

I look forward to them.

I think your calculations are off - I'm not sure where you live, and I'm pulling estimates out of my ass here, too, but globally I'd guess the split is something like 70/30 now. Could be wrong. I'll concede that the promotional imagery did not feature much in the way of strong male characters, but they will feature in the game itself. I'm a fan of grimdark and heroic fantasy, traditional masculine heroic archetypes, etc. I've been writing them for longer than many Codexers have been alive.
That said, this is a Paizo product, and it will therefore reflect Paizo values and honour the established lore. That's the approach every writer should take when they're invited into someone else's yard.

So you like the same stuff as us, but why force yourself into something so generic and lighthearted? There's nothing stopping you from making a slightly more grimdark Pathfinder campaign, as long as you keep all the humans with funny hats they call ancestries ( no one roleplays them any different way than humans) and the 20-gold sex change potions. No one will give you trouble at paizo.

I'm a fan of Pathfinder. Liking heroic archetypes and thinking inclusivity and diversity are good things are not mutually exclusive. Now, when they're at the expense of the verisimilitude of a setting or used as a crutch for shitty writing, it becomes a problem. When they're incorporated poorly into established settings and run contrary to the original creator's vision by hacks, it becomes a problem. These don't apply to Pathfinder. It's always been, or at least has been for a long while, an inclusive and diverse game.

Since it's been pointed out, I tend to agree that the promotional art ideally would have featured a white male character in the party for balance. We had the classic party of four, one of which is taken up by Fumbus, being an Iconic. Perhaps we got the balance wrong. I wasn't involved in the art: I've been writing several novels and trying to finish the first part of my Neverwinter Nights campaign. Since I'm the writer, it's fair to say the campaign will have these elements you mention - we touch on the Dark Tapestry and, as mentioned, I'm a grimdark fan at heart. It may be that some players expecting a very lighthearted campaign are surprised, hopefully in a good way. Bear in mind it's based on an existing module, so we also need to respect Mike Shel's original vision.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

promotional art ideally would have featured a white male character in the party for balance

I don't think you get it

 

[mediocrepoet]

promotional art ideally would have featured a white male character in the party for balance

I don't think you get it

That many Codexers are so fragile they start crying as soon as they see characters that aren't white men in game art or presentations? I think he gets it.

 

[Cohesion]

I'm kind tired of watching Netflix

Sweet summer child. In a few years you will be hating Jews as everyone else here

 

[aweigh]

neat

hope it isn't woke

 

[aweigh]

so we also need to respect Mike Shel's original vision

why? vision is never respected when they race swap.

 

[PunchYouInTheFace]

The market will ultimately decide

This is the truth. But to be honest with you this is going to be very niche and pulling some of the general audience will be crucial. Getting the news out to Neverwinter Nights community would definitely help, knowing that your module is quite popular among some subset of the populations.

I'm definitely backing, because I love your module.

As for the culture war pandering, it's beyond any doubt that pandering to RPG Chudex/diet 4ch demographics doesn't guarantee roi (unless you're selling softporn games). But pulling the general audience does guarantees success, every single time.

Good luck.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You ain't said a damned thing about barbarians when asked Luke Scull. You're lucky barbarians are illiterate or this stuff will go into the Book of Grudges.

 

[whocares]

pandering to RPG Chudex/diet 4ch demographics doesn't guarantee roi

This is true.

pulling the general audience does guarantees success

This is also true.

What you're conveniently ignoring is that the pink haired landwhale diversity wokeriors are not the general audience and are an even smaller demographic than us assorted bigots. And that pandering to it actaully does guarantee failure.

 

[PunchYouInTheFace]

ignoring

I am ignoring them because they're not the general audience. I am not ass deep on culture war that when I think somebody are not talking about X means they support X (except when all they talk about is culture war shit) nor I see every single non inbreds/retards/chuds as pink haired landwhale.

I mentioned retarded chud because these are the general demographic in this shit hole - and that most of them think if studios/dev are not pandering to them then their product is already considered pseudo-failed. I disagrees, general audience ensures product's success, and developer should think how to market their game so that it appeals on more people.

If pandering to retard chudexian is lucrative, every single one of the developer and their grandmother will be chasing that market, but they're not.

 

[whocares]

ignoring

I am ignoring them because they're not the general audience. I am not ass deep on culture war that when I think somebody are not talking about X means they support X (except when all they talk about is culture war shit) nor I see every single non inbreds/retards/chuds as pink haired landwhale.

I mentioned retarded chud because these are the general demographic in this shit hole - and that most of them think if studios/dev are not pandering to them then their product is already considered pseudo-failed. I disagrees, general audience ensures product's success, and developer should think how to market their game so that it appeals on more people.

If pandering to retard chudexian is lucrative, every single one of the developer and their grandmother will be chasing that market, but they're not.

See the problem here is that the game in question doesn't have that general audience appeal. I like Ossian's stuff, I like the Pathfinder rules (no idea about 2e tho), and I don't even mind the kitchen sink nature of Golarion (sci-fi robots excepting).

But this game here is using miniatures for character models. While understandable from a budget standpoint, the audience for this sort of aesthetic tends to be on the unwashed bearded grog side - see Battle Brothers. But instead the atmosphere here is cartoonish and seemingly aimed at kids. Cause of this combination there's no shot for mass market appeal here.

With the absence of clear attractive selling points that could make up for people's distaste for any particular aspect of it (art, setting, rules, whatever) the discussion then devolves to the usual counting of niggers on the cover, which is understandable really.

 

[PunchYouInTheFace]

See the problem here is that the game in question doesn't have that general audience appeal. I like Ossian's stuff, I like the Pathfinder rules (no idea about 2e tho), and I don't even mind the kitchen sink nature of Golarion (sci-fi robots excepting).

But this game here is using miniatures for character models. While understandable from a budget standpoint, the audience for this sort of aesthetic tends to be on the unwashed bearded grog side - see Battle Brothers. But instead the atmosphere here is cartoonish and seemingly aimed at kids. Cause of this combination there's no shot for mass market appeal here.

With the absence of clear attractive selling points that could make up for people's distaste for any particular aspect of it (art, setting, rules, whatever) the discussion then devolves to the usual counting of niggers on the cover, which is understandable really.

I disagree, partially. Not everything that looks cartoony are infantile or "aimed for kids". I think that is a narrow point of view.

Of course this game will not be able to generate mass market appeal, what I meant was, this game should/must be able to pull -some- of the general audience so that it can, at least, covered their development costs.

This game isn't going to be the next Baldur's Gate 3.

As for counting black people, that's just the culture in this diet-4ch site. Too much culture war politics, less RPG discussion.

 

[whocares]

See the problem here is that the game in question doesn't have that general audience appeal. I like Ossian's stuff, I like the Pathfinder rules (no idea about 2e tho), and I don't even mind the kitchen sink nature of Golarion (sci-fi robots excepting).

But this game here is using miniatures for character models. While understandable from a budget standpoint, the audience for this sort of aesthetic tends to be on the unwashed bearded grog side - see Battle Brothers. But instead the atmosphere here is cartoonish and seemingly aimed at kids. Cause of this combination there's no shot for mass market appeal here.

With the absence of clear attractive selling points that could make up for people's distaste for any particular aspect of it (art, setting, rules, whatever) the discussion then devolves to the usual counting of niggers on the cover, which is understandable really.

I disagree, partially. Not everything that looks cartoony are infantile or "aimed for kids". I think that is a narrow point of view.

Of course this game will not be able to generate mass market appeal, what I meant was, this game should/must be able to pull -some- of the general audience so that it can, at least, covered their development costs.

This game isn't going to be the next Baldur's Gate 3.

As for counting black people, that's just the culture in this diet-4ch site. Too much culture war politics, less RPG discussion.

Sure, there's cartoony and there's cartoony. Don't think anyone's accusing Bastion of being aimed at kids.

But while mobile games are sneakily super popular, people tend to really despise non-mobile games that look like a mobile game. To the point where some get accused of this despite looking nothing like a mobile game. And this one does look like something your 5 year old cousin would tap on his tablet. I just don't see how it's possible to tell a deep heroic story with this art style.

 

[Zeriel]

Not a single white person.

Incorrect: there's a white person there as the only thing they're allowed to be, an enemy.

 

[PunchYouInTheFace]

look like a mobile game

I'm trying not to sound dismissive here, but from what I saw, anything less than ultra-realistic looking graphics or distinctly stylized art (e.g. pixel) video games are automatically considered as "looking like a mobile game" or "looking like Overwatch" in here.

Human brain sees 3 dots and automatically deduct, "this is a human face".

It's clear that this art style isn't for everyone, but I'd rather focus on the many other factors that can compensate for any perceived lack of artistic appeal.

 

[Luke Scull]

You ain't said a damned thing about barbarians when asked Luke Scull. You're lucky barbarians are illiterate or this stuff will go into the Book of Grudges.

Barbarian class is in the game, you godless savage.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

godless

Bruh you just assumed my theism.

 

[MerchantKing]

godless

Bruh you just assumed my theism.

Are you a Jewish Barbarian just like Samson?

 

[Hydro]

I can understand western trannies and soyjacks playing BG3 because of mental illness, but who on earth is bothered with this puke-looking prosper-fest?