Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[InD_ImaginE]

That's probably because him having Sneak Attack dice means that his damage roll on sneak attack is just much higher than anyone else on Chapter 1 considering the enemy has DR?

 

[Desiderius]

Not saying he will ever be outshined, but here in the beginning he does 3-4 times the damage of everyone else. While everyone have trouble fighting a demon, he just shiv the demon for maximum damage and it's over.

Consider the possibility that you’re not getting most out of everyone else yet.

 

[Desiderius]

Boy, that thiefling does so much damage as a rogue with his daggers compared to everyone else. Almost start to wonder why use anything else than rogues - but to be fair I had the same feeling in Kingmaker. The crit damage is just so insane compared to slow regular damage. Wish they would force you to be behind the target so it actually involves some tactics.

Oh my sweet summer child....

Wait til you play Wolj. You'll see too lol. Dude is just a blender.

Looking forward to it. I like the EScoundrel package in theory.

Still, claiming a (stunted) sneak attack dagger character deals more damage then optimized damage/crit builds just proves how little he's seen...

Stunted? Does Vivi have Vitals? Reduce Person is like a Monk splash in itself. You get Abundant Casting at level six or so.

That's probably because him having Sneak Attack dice means that his damage roll on sneak attack is just much higher than anyone else on Chapter 1 considering the enemy has DR?

It’s not DR/-.

 

[Haplo]

Sense Vitals is cool, but neither long nor very potent early on. Yeah, I guess when you factor that (and can comfortably keep it up), his sneak progression isn't bad.
Still, there was mention of daggers I believe.. and the damage dice are no good on that.

As for the comparison of Reduce and a monk splash.. come on, Desiderius, lets stay serious. You can do better then that.
Generally not a fan of Reduce, as it gimps your weapon damage even more on a Dex build... but not much weapon damage to gimp here in the 1st place, so I guess it can't hurt.

 

[Desiderius]

Do the math Hap. You get more Sneak Dice than Vivi with Vitals at lvl six, he starts with DEX to Damage so Reduce is at worst damage neutral while getting you +2 to hit and AC. He’s INT-based and you don’t get free stats in Wrath so WIS/CHR to AC wouldn’t do much and he’s two-weapon so neither would Wing.

He cares about everything BUT the weapon dice and with abundant casting can get it. Being non-Good and wearing the Bookworm’s Headband makes him immune to the effects that make the first two hardest fights hard.

 

[Haplo]

At level 6? 1d6 base sneak + 2d6 Sense Vitals = 3d6... same as a Vivi/other Rogue (who don't need short lived Sense to achieve that). Both could get Accomplished for another d6. Both will get another die at level 7.

Also a Vivi with Feral Mutagen would have 3 full-BAB attacks... 4 if Motherless Tiefling/fox and bite attacks still stack?
...no Mirror Image, though

 

[Desiderius]

They front loaded his Sneaks. He starts with two. I thought PnP Scoundrel got half the Sneaks, which added to Vitals would be 1/2 + 2/3 = 3/6 + 4/6 = 7/6 in any case.

Stunning Barrier is an all-star too, as is Dodge but they’ve delayed that, and Debilitating ends up being better than Mutagen. You also get a couple Extend rods early that work perfect with Vitals since the big challenges are single fight focused and you can afford to rest more often (with some exceptions).

Spoiler

He soloed (with help from his Hellknight bud to maintain flanking) all these guys on Hard. He's a little nuts.

 

[Haplo]

They front loaded his Sneaks. He starts with two. I thought PnP Scoundrel got half the Sneaks, which added to Vitals would be 1/2 + 2/3 = 3/6 + 4/6 = 7/6 in any case.

I must confess I don't get the math here. What does 1/2, 1/3 and 4/6 refer to?
In PnP he would get 1d6 sneaks at level 3 (next 1d6 at level 7) and 2d6 from Sense Vitals (+1d6 every 3 levels).

 

[Desiderius]

Vivi gets 1/2 sneak die per level
Vitals gets 1/3 per level (except the last one)
Scoundrel gets 1/4 per level, except they front loaded the first two so Wolj starts with two at lvl 3.

1/4 is 1/2 of 1/2.

So it would be more accurate to say that Scoundrel with Vitals gets

1/4 + 1/3 = 3/12 + 4/12 = 7/12 > 1/2 <- which is what Vivi gets.

Except since it's front loaded you get that extra 1/12 early so are always ahead of Vivi until lvl 18 when Vitals runs out.

 

[Haplo]

So you're telling at levle 6 he has 2d6 regular + 2d6 Sense Vitals? Sounds possible. Maybe he picked Accomplished Sneak Attacker?

With these buffs, he'll be better at defense then a Vivi (despite Mutagen bonuses). Can't quite match the damage output of a Feral Vivi, though (unless Vivi is Dex and there exists no way to add Dex to AB for natural attacks, I guess). Well, DR might also put this in favor of manufactured weapons.

 

[Desiderius]

Unfortunately at this point Natural Weapons still need some work.

You can still use Crusader’s Edge on a Natural Weapon (for pets for instance) but only one per character in any case. Magic Weapon/Fang you can use on each (Greater stacks and is hour/lvl).

Wolj starts with Double Slice (not great, but his DEX bonus is 8 early) and two-weapon. His Tiefling Racial gives him DEX and INT with - WIS and he gets Invis as Spell-like (which is actually very good).

 

[Desiderius]

Meanwhile, back in Drezen...

Spoiler

We've paid the cost to Shake it Off, including burning a Mythic Feat on Sos I think. If you're going to do it do it early and go all in (the pathing here was a nightmare and Ember got caught in the shuffle - she doesn't have Shake it Off because not melee). Seelah will get her second Pal level and Divine Grace after picking up Dreadful Carnage Combat Style at Freebooter 10.

That Dominate is the Charming Smile from Sos wearing off. Works on Giants!

Nenio's Icy Prison was a lifesaver here to save us from the pathing nightmare. Prison is a single-target Evocation (she starts with Spell Focus Evo) Spell that targets Reflex, filling a huge hole in Nenio's threat selection. If you're having trouble with Giants always target Reflex!

Once she gets her Spell Pen up will be good vs bosses.

And that's that. Giants down and now we can open the gates and rain fire from above while using the top of the wall as a highway to the rest of the level (the vendor camps at one end once you do this.

Lann keeps on keeping on.

Some nice teamwork taking out one the the biggest pains in Drezen - Brimoraks got lost on their way to Krynn I think - while avoiding the danger of getting lit up by a stream of Fireballs. Blinding Ray is no save.

Infinitron picking a good time to use her only (diminished spellcasting) level 5 spell (it's the Law Domain spell for that level). If you look closely you can see that Sosiel and Seelah both have their ranged weapons still equipped from ploinking that Brimorak.

Was wondering why this fight was taking so long...

Shield Bash mechanics still need a lot of work - they're behind where they were in P:K - but still getting there slowly but surely. They've worked well with Cornugan. Can definitely see taking Seelah Pal2/Crusader18 for some bashing.

These random dudes hanging around are a lot more meaningful on Hard, especially if they catch you with your buffs down. This guy has Dreadful Carnage.

If you have the skills to Parkour on the rooftop above him is a body with this little jewel, that doesn't appear to be working yet, at least on Bites. You can even leap from this rooftop to a platform that lets you reach the top of the wall if you want to get back to the Crusader home base without fighting your way through to it.

 

[Shadenuat]

So you're telling at levle 6 he has 2d6 regular + 2d6 Sense Vitals? Sounds possible. Maybe he picked Accomplished Sneak Attacker?

ES just get sneak on level 1.

Don't worry your agendahead too much tho, with mythic crit and mythic power attack, and enemies being immune to sneaks at least sometimes, nothing threatens mighty haplostick.

Hey there's a way to build Lann around his absolutely worst lowest stat and give him 3 bites. I'll have to try this.

 

[Desiderius]

The tavern is in the building to the north. Let's see how we do with only long buffs left.

Spoiler

Someone was saying that the boss was guarding the key. Nope. You can sneak over and get it off of this Dretch over here without fighting anyone else.

This guy is hiding off in a corner. He won't bother you as long as you don't bother him. Let's not. 4 or five Babau lurking around a little harder without buffs but not a real challenge as long as you don't let them interfere in the real fights.

Speaking of which. Tried to sneak up on this guy but our Crusader tagalongs Leeroy Jankinsed it. They were to pay with their lives. One of the reasons I chose Lawful for my initial Mythic Abilities was for situations like this (it uses Charlevel + Mythiclevel) but like every other early Dispel effect mostly a joke with no real way to improve it.

Ember got the Evil Eye down and Cackled the whole fight to keep it up, but unbuffed we were struggling to hit even that. Note: this is flat-footed. Shatter does nothing. It's go big or go Touch and we already used up our big. ZA has Touch abilities that should bypass SR like Bombs but don't yet.

Ember does though, and she was built for this (21 Spell Pen already), as a Witch should be. Negative levels affect AB, Saves, and HP but not AC unfortunately so we're desperately buffing Seelah with one round abilties to try to get a hit in.

Seelah crit missed the attack boosted by that Touch. Really is an epic battle with Ember sweating every Cackle.

As usual Lann takes care of business (Ranging Shots for the win) and we crack the lock on this high DC chest to find...

A cooking ingredient. Nice one Owlcat. I do remember running out of Butter for Galt Ragout in P:K so who knows. I've posted here earlier what he does drop (one of the much rarer stat belts) and there's a nice shirt (new equipment slot) on a body behind him.

Turned out to be a real knock down drag out knucklebiter. Good work Owlcat.

 

[Alienman]

I think I'm getting old. The dungeon fights are so intense I have to take breaks after each encounter. A dungeon that would take 2 hours takes 5 for me

 

[The_Mask]

I do remember running out of Butter for Galt Ragout in P:K[...].

Am I the only one who finds this sentence funny? He ate so much P:K... he... ran outta butter.

hahahahaha






No?

Ok. >.>

 

[CaesarCzech]

I do remember running out of Butter for Galt Ragout in P:K[...].

Am I the only one who finds this sentence funny? He ate so much P:K... he... ran outta butter.

hahahahaha






No?

Ok. >.>

He fights and feasts like feudal lord lol. I kinda want to see Desiderius do swarm route later and record the final fights or something because i presume Swarm might have toughest finale.

 

[Desiderius]

Like someone else earlier this week, turns out I hadn't figured out how to search vendor inventory efficiently yet. Wrath reports wrap up for now with a similar report of self-ownage:

Spoiler

After we killed the Boss in an unbuffed nailbiter this guy was the only one left in the tavern. We take him out this whole side of the map is done so we can start on the other after a rest. Rest is limited in Drezen by corruption. It's CivIII all over again.

Theoretically Spit Venom should rock. In reality there's a lot of things immune to Poison in Wrath to cut down on Stinking Cloud Spam and some of the things that aren't have high Spell Resistance. The hardest boss so far is not Immune to Poison, has not Spell Resistance, but has sky high Touch AC.

Here Lann caught this guy flat-footed so was a sitting duck for the no Save Blind. That should have been enough but for rub-ins the poor sap also lost the Fortitude Save and got Poisoned too. 98% chance fight is over right here. Every other fight with this set-up is over once he triggers the AoOs with the cast.

On top of that Pox Pustules finally got there too. But wait where did those Images come from?

This was from a previous attempt. It's like he has Image on Contingency or something. And there wasn't a Casting Defensively let alone Concentration roll even though Crispy is right there. Something fishy here.

The only thing that did trigger a Concentration check was the Bleed from Lann's Bow.



So far as I can tell Phantasmal Web is bypassing Delay Poison and preventing anyone from acting while they get nuked by two Fireballs. I did use an Extend Rod for my Resist Energy, Fire but ended up pushing things too far.

A fitting end to an incomplete ride.

Crusader MC is looking promising if you give her some help in the lower levels. Doubling up on Crusader's Edge, Cornugan Smash, and Angel bonuses feels good. Probably not the best idea to dump CHR.

Seelah Freebooter has some good synergies but Ranger spells are already overloaded from other companions (especially if you make Lann a Druid). Seelah straight Pal, Pal2/Crusader Basher, or Pal1/Bard looking better

Lann ZA2/Drovier with Leopard highly recommended. Smooths out difficulty curve well and Speed (or CMB) Aura is great. He still does the job at range if less dominant.

Ember Spell Pen Necro Rays solid but should probably buy the Necro ring and maybe get Mythic Spell Focus before Mythic Spell Pen then just use Hexes on high SR targets.

Nenio Mythic Spell Focus Illusion great for Rainbow Pattern but early Illusions sparse. Non-finessable Bite is tricky. Either wait for fix or use Illusionary defense spells to support Enlarge + Str for mediocre damage. Attacking with Finessed weapon with Crusader's Edge is solid tho. Probably something there on Evocation side. I wouldn't waste ranged feats. Don't sleep on no Save Blinding Ray, insta-Invis, Greater, or scroll scribing.

Wolj/Sos great as usual. Autolevel and slay.

Daeran/Regill still unfinished.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I think they just slapped Quickened Mirror Image as an SLA or something. The guy who made encounter overhaul on Kingmaker also essentially did the same.

His explanation: due to how KM (and probably WotR) is coded, buff spells that scale their effect by caster level (contrary to spells that only scale in duration like Blur, Displacement, Bull STR, etc), when they are pre-buffed to enemies will result in the buff being "cast" with 1 CL.

This means, unlike the players, enemies are unable to effectively be pre-buffed with spells like Mirror Image or even Barskin (pre-buffed Barskin always do the 2 AC instead of based on CL), etc.

Slapping a SLA to "pre-buff" the enemies are seemingly a compromise that the modder picked.

I am not sure if it's the same approach with Owlcat, just throwing out a possibility.

 

[Desiderius]

That would also somewhat explain all the useless (outside of Alchemist/Nenio) Potions and Scrolls with CL1.

 

[Xamenos]

That would also somewhat explain all the useless (outside of Alchemist/Nenio) Potions and Scrolls with CL1.

That's per Pathfinder (and 3.5 rules). Default for scrolls and potions is the minimum caster level that lets you cast the spell.

 

[Shadenuat]

Spoiler

ok I get it, it's the ring of pyromania, it does extra slashing damage.

elemental fire scion canceled. 2 more years.

Theoretically Spit Venom should rock. In reality there's a lot of things immune to Poison in Wrath to cut down on Stinking Cloud Spam and some of the things that aren't have high Spell Resistance. The hardest boss so far is not Immune to Poison, has not Spell Resistance, but has sky high Touch AC.

well if it's 40 or so True Strike goes through it.
ember can't cast it tho and neni dumped necro. amazing how two wrong casters can't make one right one, eh? well u can probably scribe Embi some TS scrolls to use if you really wanted to.
btw I am kinda amazed at crafteng system: so a super expensive crafteng kit is useless because you need a lower level kit to craft lower level spells, so you have to buy a new kit every time you want to make higher level spell, so you have to buy and carry half a dozen kits for potions and scrolls? if I wanted to make a more retarded system I wouldn't be able to make one

my plan for demon girl was to true strike enervate (dont remember if she is immune or not tho) dogify or dominate. I wanted to lead her to elemental trap in the end and then bull rush her into it. but dominated enemies actually do not do anything unless there are enemies near it's not baldur's gate. so I'd have to bull rush the dog through whole level and onto trap to snap a funny picture and well nevermind Lann just killed her anyway i was only quick enough to push a boneshatter through.

 

[Desiderius]

Ember doesn’t need True Strike she has Hexes. Yeah if your MC is Alchemist it could be worth a try but I always find TS super clunky except for that time I Extended (this gives you two Strikes BTW, so Bite + Trip for instance) it to give my Diviner some spells for his free slots.

 

[Shadenuat]

There's nothing stoppin u from topping ray with a hex. I see no problems with TS, I get 12 s., or ~23ish s. with extend wand.

 

[Desiderius]

He doesn’t like writing, nor do I. Point buy class etc easy mode other than inexplicably taking out Camouflage on first Ranger who could use it.