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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

Yosharian

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This gaze is fucking amazing. Never roll a 1, ever again, on an attack roll, save, or skill check, while this is active. Works on the MC and all allies, including pets as far as I can tell.

I can't believe I didn't see this one before. This is a game-changer.

poweroflaw.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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This gaze is fucking amazing. Never roll a 1, ever again, on an attack roll, save, or skill check, while this is active. Works on the MC and all allies, including pets as far as I can tell.

I can't believe I didn't see this one before. This is a game-changer.

poweroflaw.jpg
That's either new or TTT only?

I took the Miss Chance one instead.
 

Grunker

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Haplo I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Hidden Abode is the most difficult fight in the game...

...Hidden Abode doesn't start with a surprise round, 100% unblockable Seductive Presence DC59 (leaving everyone helpless for 5d4 rounds) followed by a 1232 damage 100% unblockable Wail of the Banshee DC 49 :lol:

Oh and a d20+41 caster level check Dispel Magic (Area) in case the bread wasn't toasted enough at this point.

Definetely the hardest fight of the game by virtue of the sheer numbers game alone (which is fitting considering who you're fighting). You basically need to stack every single save buff imaginable (including probably Fortune-Cackle cheese unless you want to reload alot), which my subpar builds haven't :D

Even with buffs like Vision of Madness + Shake it Off-stacking etc. it's probably a toss-up for companions/MCs with low Fort.
 
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Desiderius

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It all depends how you design your party and what their strengths and weaknesses are. The Alchemists in Hidden Abode are irrelevant to me because I make sure to have ways to neutralize caster adds.
 

Grunker

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It all depends how you design your party and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Let's do some math here to test whether that statement is actually valid in practice:

High fortitude save: +12
Incredibly high Constitution (assuming high base + Aspect of Balor + Tome + Belt etc.): +15
Demongraft: +2
Light Aura from Hand of Inheritor: +2
Lucky Bracers: +1
Heroism: +4
Resistance: +6
Food bonus: +3
Ring of Summons: +2
Vision of Madness: +9
Shake it Off: +4

(Remember, Nocti gets a surprise round, so no Guarded Heath or cheesey run-away-strat for you either)

That's a total of +60. So this hypothetical character stacking basically most save buffs - including some rather niche ones like keeping the Lucky Bracers around for endgame - clears the bar almost exactly (2 points to spare). And it's including what is arguably cheese (Vision having such a low duration, so you have to do some cutscene skips etc.).

It's also assuming a level 20 class with high Fort that has high base Constitution.

That's a lot of ifs - if any of the above isn't true, things fall apart fast. "Normal" base Con? That's +3 removed there. No high Fort? +4 gone or more. No Shake it Off specifically? +4 more gone.

Now, "clearing the bar", as it were, isn't strictly necessary. If you're OK with reloads, you can make do with 8-9 less than the above. So that leaves you with two options as I see it:
- Have more or less every save buff imaginable but don't use Vision of Madness
- Use specifically Vision of Madness, allowing you to possibly eschew a few of the other bonuses

Remember: Bestow Grace of the Champion doesn't work here, since we're a Demon (i.e. can't be targeted by the spell). Obviously there are other ways to boost saves, including a Demon - we're not hitting a ceiling or anything - but that's not my argument. My argument is that you have to build *specifically* for high saves here, because the fight literally cannot be attempted through other means.

No other fight in the game has requirements this specific - like you say, other fights can be harder of easier depending on your "strengths and weaknesses", but if you built a good party, you'll be able to do them, you'll just have to work harder at it (or, well, cheese it). This fight you straight up cannot do unless you stack an insane amount of save bonuses. As well, it is the only fight I've had so far where both enemy effects penetrate all immunities AND are required to win the fight, period (there are other immunity-penetrating things in the game, but these will hamper you rather than lose the fight outright). Specifically the need for Visions of Madness is part of this reasoning - if you don't have that specific Domain power, the numbers game is wildly against you - especially if you don't have a class with high Fort.

Hence why I think it's the hardest fight of the game (at least so far - I don't know if there are similar "have this specific build or it is near enough impossible"-fights later, only just arrived to Act 5).

One strategy you miiiiight be able to take is to attempt to win the fight with only your MC alive, stacking the saves on him, reloading for the numbers you need. Because the above calculations assume PC (Demongraft etc.). You're going to have a hard time getting near those saves with a full party unless building around clearing a 59DC Fort save on six dude is what you built for.
 
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Desiderius

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I just posted a pic yesterday of lvl 15 Seelah already having a 42 Fort Save with advantage (none of it was Fort specific). I'll post one when I get to Nocti fight. Play the damn game. It's a lot more fun than theory-crafting.
 

Grunker

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You got a Paladin to 17+ on the save? Damn, I guess my math is way off then. At least if your intent was to make my point for me.

Anyway, you don't have to theory-craft to counter my argument. You just have to answer a simple question: what other fight requires as much specific number-stacking? What other fight relies on your MC being to reach such a specific number?
 
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Desiderius

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She's at lvl 15 lol. Plenty of game left. And like I said nothing even Fort specific.

It's a Fascinate effect. Use Indomitable Mount to make save on Mount then wake up somebody who can do AoE damage with your Mount and you're good.
 

Grunker

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She's also a Paladin. Thinkabout why that might matter for this specific example and this fight in particular. While you're doing that, I'll be waiting for that example of a similar fight.
 
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Desiderius

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She's also a Paladin. Think about why that might matter for this specific example and this very specific fight.
So what? That helps but there's like a gazillion ways to boost saves. And you only need one character to awaken the others from Fascinate, which is probably the way you have to go if you get all your buffs stripped.

Grace of the Champion is Lawful Good only but Bestow Grace is only Good btw...
 

Grunker

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A gazillion ways to reach that fortitude check? List just a few then - my bet is that just like with the armor tank, you'll suddenly be busy when details get on the table - either way, I win, because if actually answer this time I can beat the encounter :)

Also still waiting on that similar example btw.

Bestow Grace is only Good btw...

Good news for all the Good-aligned demons out there!
 
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I'm thinking that I want to use Table Top Tweaks base, as well as the mythic changes. I like everything I see, except for half of Abundant Spells. I was looking forward to my trickster wizard having two double sized spellbooks before the INT bonus. Maybe I'll be able to edit that out. I'll have to get unity mod manager working on Linux first. Sheesh.

EDIT: Unity Mod Manager says things are installed successfully, but I think it's mistaken.
 
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Desiderius

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A gazillion ways to reach that fortitude check? List just a few then - my bet is that just like with the armor tank, you'll suddenly be busy when details get on the table - either way, I win, because if actually answer this time I can beat the encounter :)

Also still waiting on that similar example btw.

Bestow Grace is only Good btw...

Good news for all the Good-aligned demons out there!
Lol, I've posted several pics of tank Seelah's AC, including one last night. What world are you living in?

Like I said if Nocti strips your buffs seems like best to win the fight is the use your Mount(s) to wake up someone who can wake up team. That's one fight.

The OP that set you off was about Abode fight that had nothing to do with Saves, it was about making sure you had a way to neutralize vulnerable threats. Outside corner optional fights like Nocti evidently designed to hose high save buff teams you can likewise get saves up to where you can avoid a lot of shit that can wipe you otherwise.

Good news for all the Good-aligned demons out there!
Yes, that's what btw means. Pointing out that you've mistaken the narrower 4th level spell for the broader 2nd level one. Champion also gives Disease Immunity which can usually be covered by Life Bubble.
 

Grunker

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Outside corner optional fights like Nocti

Which are these, again?

Abode fight has nothing to do with Saves

Exactly. Like all other optional fights it does not require you to do anything extremely specific. Abode can be way easier or harder based on your build, but you can approach it in a billion ways. That's my entire point.

Unless there are examples like Nocticula that do this - I wouldn't know since I'm only in Act 5 and haven't played the other paths. That's why I'm asking for examples. Which you could easily just provide if indeed they exist.

The OP that set you off

Set me off? Nigga I loved Hidden Abode. Phenomenal fight. You're projecting again.

you've mistaken the narrower 4th level spell for the broader 2nd level one

No? (also easiest general way to get BGotC at this point in the game is cleric 7th)
 
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Lambach

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Oh hi Grunker , I see you're having the same discussion* with Desiderius about Nocticula that I had with him many pages ago. You even use almost the same arguments I did back then!

* "discussion" is not a good word for it, though, it's actually more like bashing your head against a wall made of bricks and concentrated autism

Take some advice from a hardened, grizzled veteran of this war: don't bother. It is quite literally physically impossible for him to distinguish "this encounter is bad design" from "this encounter is too difficult". You can keep saying that it's a bad fight because it goes against the game's core philosophy by giving you one (1) and only one (1) single way to beat it (stack Saves), unlike literally any other fight in the game that can be beaten in many different ways, but in his brain that auto-translates to "I want Owlcat to make the game easier".

You can record yourself beating Nocticula on Unfair in RTwP using only your dick to hit the keyboard and the mouse, he'll still say you just suck at the game if you mention that this is a uniquely terribly designed fight.
 

Grunker

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Oh hi Grunker , I see you're having the same discussion* with Desiderius about Nocticula that I had with him many pages ago. You even use almost the same arguments I did back then!

* "discussion" is not a good word for it, though, it's actually more like bashing your head against a wall made of bricks and concentrated autism

Take some advice from a hardened, grizzled veteran of this war: don't bother. It is quite literally physically impossible for him to distinguish "this encounter is bad design" from "this encounter is too difficult". You can keep saying that it's a bad fight because it goes against the game's core philosophy by giving you one (1) and only one (1) single way to beat it (stack Saves), unlike literally any other fight in the game that can be beaten in many different ways, but in his brain that auto-translates to "I want Owlcat to make the game easier".

You can record yourself beating Nocticula on Unfair in RTwP using only your dick to hit the keyboard and the mouse, he'll still say you just suck at the game if you mention that this is a uniquely terribly designed fight.

I've had the same discussion with Desi in a million different versions. Why are we on Codex if not to bang our heads against retard walls.

The thing is - I'm not even saying it's bad fight design. I would be kind of underwhelmed if taking down possibly the most powerful actor in the game in an optional fight didn't come with some sort of heavy caveat.

The only thing I'm saying is that the fight has very specific, very harsh number requirements that no other fights I know have, and that this in my opinion makes it the hardest fight in the game. So all Desi has to do to prove me wrong is either show the many ways a party not specialized for it might deal with that specific situation, or alternatively, even easier, provide an example of a similar fight.

The essence of the discussion isn't even the high save - it's the fact that in all other fights I know of you either (1) get to react or (2) the thing you can't react to doesn't outright lose you the fight.
 
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Lambach

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Exactly. Like all other optional fights it does not require you to do anything extremely specific. Unless there are examples like Nocticula that do this - I wouldn't know since I'm only in Act 5 and haven't played the other paths.

I've played every Core Path other than Trickster (which, ironically, is the only one other than Demon in which you can fight Nocticula), and no, there is nothing like it. The only thing in Act 5 that comes close to feeling as "unfair" as Nocticula is this one particularly nasty son of a bitch that only the Azata and the Aeon can potentially fight, but I used two vastly different strategies to deal with him in these two respective playthroughs. Something I would not have been able to do against Nocticula regardless of which character I'm playing, because the one and only strategy against her is "stack Saves".
 

Grunker

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Exactly. Like all other optional fights it does not require you to do anything extremely specific. Unless there are examples like Nocticula that do this - I wouldn't know since I'm only in Act 5 and haven't played the other paths.

I've played every Core Path other than Trickster (which, ironically, is the only one other than Demon in which you can fight Nocticula)

According to Trickster posters in this thread, Nocti-fight as Trickster is different. And I can imagine - besides the stuff posted about in this thread, Trickster has multiple, easily accessible ways of dealing with Save or Suck.

Though of course it still presumably has the extremely narrow clause of actually dealing with said save.
 

Lambach

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I would be kind of underwhelmed if taking down possibly the most powerful actor in the game

Nocticula's power is not in open confrontation. It makes no sense that a Party which can strangle both Deskari and Baphomet like newborn kittens simultaneously gets annihilated in open confrontation against a Demon Lord whose greatest strengths are subterfuge and guile.

Her "Seductive Presence" is a cheat code, plain and simple. It goes through protections that it really shouldn't go through.... just because. IIRC, it's a Paralyze effect, so Rupture Restrains should negate it and Unstoppable should convert it to Staggered. Neither do what they're supposed to, and they work just fine against any other Demon Lord you encounter. Why? Because fuck you, it's the Girlboss, bitch.

The thing is - I'm not even saying it's bad fight design.

No, it really is. It's a fight inside a video-game that breaks the well-established rules of said video-game.
 

Desiderius

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(1) If I said you can get your saves up high enough for Nocti fight I was wrong. If she strips your buffs that's not happening.

Don't know why you phaggots insist on all the hurr, durr arguing with Desiderius is pointless. I change my mind when new data comes in all the time.

(2) Fascinate is an easily breakable condition. Focus on ways to do that. Seems like that's the point of the fight. Not save or suck. Fascinate doesn't suck as much as other conditions so a fight that takes advantage of that while expressing the power of the foe is great design. Instead you guys fall into the usual blaming the game instead of putting some thought into it. You're better players than that.

Set me off? Nigga I loved Hidden Abode. Phenomenal fight. You're projecting again.
No, I don't project much at all. My failings are in fact pretty unique. Projecting them doesn't pass the viability test. I tend to paint with too broad of a brush instead.

You went off on the Nocti tangent again when I was talking about Abode, probably because you knew my original take (stack saves) was wrong and you wanted me to finally admit it.

I just did.

Combined with the gnawing feeling that you're missing out on the way Nocti fight was designed to be attacked. But that's speculation on my part.
 

Desiderius

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No? (also easiest general way to get BGotC at this point in the game is cleric 7th)
Yeah, but if you have a Pal then Pal unique Bestow Grace works for any Good character and has far less competition at lvl 2 than BGotC which is LG only has at Pal 4 or Cleric 7.

Which are these, again?
Playful, Soul Hunter, Quasit, Sarkorian Ghost, Dragon in the Caves, endgame stuff, etc...

They usually have some unique twist to them.
 
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Lambach

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Playful, Soul Hunter, Quasit, Sarkorian Ghost, etc...

They usually have some unique twist to them.

Yes, and you can overcome that unique twist in multiple different ways. Let's take Playful as an example. Here are just some of the strategies you can use to take him out:

Strategy 1: Cast Bless Weapon on Lann and Arue, cover the screen in Skeleton Summons and pray like all hell those two roll enough 19s or 20s on their ABs to take Playful down before you run out of Summons. (NOT a recommended strategy. Extremely slow, stupid and too luck-reliant. Took me like 10 reloads or thereabouts, but worked eventually).

Strategy 2: Merged Lich Sorcerer. At that point you should be Level 14 and MR 4, i.e. Caster Level 18, i.e. should have Corrupt Magic. Corrupt Magic turns Playful Darkness into a Playful Kitten, though you may have to hit him with it more than once (have not tested Corrupt Magic with Goggles of Pure Sight).

Strategy 3: Mark of Justice from Seelah to negate DR + several Creeping Doom swarms from Ember.

Strategy 4: Cast Cave Fangs with Ember or someone else. Get into fight. Make sure Seelah survives long enough to cast Mark of Justice (for DR negation). Make sure Ember survives long enough to get to act. Spam Stalagmites from Cave Fangs under Playful until your index finger goes numb. Win in one Round, probably. (WARNING: Strategy is extreme cheese, use only if you hate fun).

Etc...

Now let's see some strategies to beat Nocticula:

Strategy 1: Stack Saves.

Impressive, excellent design.
 

Desiderius

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Playful, Soul Hunter, Quasit, Sarkorian Ghost, etc...

They usually have some unique twist to them.

Yes, and you can overcome that unique twist in multiple different ways. Let's take Playful as an example. Here are just some of the strategies you can use to take him out:

Strategy 1: Cast Bless Weapon on Lann and Arue, cover the screen in Skeleton Summons and pray like all hell those two roll enough 19s or 20s on their ABs to take Playful down before you run out of Summons. (NOT a recommended strategy. Extremely slow, stupid and too luck-reliant. Took me like 10 reloads or thereabouts, but worked eventually).

Strategy 2: Merged Lich Sorcerer. At that point you should be Level 14 and MR 4, i.e. Caster Level 18, i.e. should have Corrupt Magic. Corrupt Magic turns Playful into a kitten, though you may have to hit him with it more than once (have not tested Corrupt Magic with Goggles of Pure Sight).

Strategy 3: Mark of Justice from Seelah to negate DR + several Creeping Doom swarms from Ember.

Strategy 4: Cast Cave Fangs with Ember or someone else. Get into fight. Make sure Seelah survives long enough to cast Mark of Justice (for DR negation). Make sure Ember survives long enough to get to act. Spam Stalagmites from Cave Fangs under Playful until your index finger goes numb. Win in one Round, probably. (WARNING: Strategy is extreme cheese, use only if you hate fun).

Etc...

Now let's see some strategies to beat Nocticula:

Strategy 1: Stack Saves.

Impressive, excellent design.
Stack saves probably won't work since she strips your buffs. Grunker's right.

Whole thing depends on Fascinate vs (irresistible) Paralyze unless I'm misremembering. Fascinate breaks with damage. Indomitable Mount should be able to save a Mount to start breaking team out of Fascinate. Or lucky save since you get one every round.

you'll suddenly be busy when details get on the table
I tagged you last week with the pic of Reg taking an Unfair hit w/ damage breakdown to illustrate that getting one-shot isn't something that happens much (if at all) if you're prepared and play smart.

You didn't respond.
 

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