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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

Lambach

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I don't remember her stripping buffs off me, Baphomet is the only Demon Lord that likes to Dispell your Party IIRC. Maybe she does that on Unfair. Per description, Seductive Presence should strip you of all mind-related protections and immunities on a failed Save, but that still doesn't affect Fort-boosting buffs.

Whole thing depends on Fascinate vs (irresistible) Paralyze unless I'm misremembering.

It is Fascinate, I'm retarded. So RR and Unbreakable are working as they should.

Still doesn't make this any better, because it again all boils down to stacking Saves, immunities don't work (per Ability description).

Idomitable Mount should be able to save a Mount to start breaking team out of Fascinate

Now that's just desperate.
 

Yosharian

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Haplo I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Hidden Abode is the most difficult fight in the game...

...Hidden Abode doesn't start with a surprise round, 100% unblockable Seductive Presence DC59 (leaving everyone helpless for 5d4 rounds) followed by a 1232 damage 100% unblockable Wail of the Banshee DC 49 :lol:

Oh and a d20+41 caster level check Dispel Magic (Area) in case the bread wasn't toasted enough at this point.

Definetely the hardest fight of the game by virtue of the sheer numbers game alone (which is fitting considering who you're fighting). You basically need to stack every single save buff imaginable (including probably Fortune-Cackle cheese unless you want to reload alot), which my subpar builds haven't :D

Even with buffs like Vision of Madness + Shake it Off-stacking etc. it's probably a toss-up for companions/MCs with low Fort.
Lmao I was waiting for you to encounter this fight
 

Yosharian

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Have you considered Magic Nullification? That's what I'm going to use for my non-Lawful party members who can't reliably beat Dictum's DC 46 Will save insta-kill in that fight that's coming up for my Aeon.
 

Yosharian

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As for Wail, since that's just damage you can get through that with Last Stand. So if you plan for this fight I think it shouldn't be too hard. But it's definitely stacked against the player. After all, this is Nocticula we're talking about, she should be a tough fight.
 

Lambach

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Have you considered Magic Nullification? That's what I'm going to use for my non-Lawful party members who can't reliably beat Dictum's DC 46 Will save insta-kill in that fight that's coming up for my Aeon.

I actually never tried it because the Description says it dispells all Spell Effects, which I figured meant buffs as well. That's a pretty massive hit to take.

Also, Seductive Presence isn't even a Spell, so MN shouldn't work on it at all, in theory. God knows how it's implemented in the game, though.
 

Lambach

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After all, this is Nocticula we're talking about, she should be a tough fight.

Tougher than Baphomet and Deskari put together with no Rest after beating a fully geeked out Areelu who, lore-wise, is on-par with Demon Lords in terms of power?

Tough is one thing. Retarded is another.

So if you plan for this fight I think it shouldn't be too hard.

And thus a disciple of Desiderius is born. :lol:
 

proxon

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It all depends how you design your party and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Let's do some math here to test whether that statement is actually valid in practice:

High fortitude save: +12
Incredibly high Constitution (assuming high base + Aspect of Balor + Tome + Belt etc.): +15
Demongraft: +2
Light Aura from Hand of Inheritor: +2
Lucky Bracers: +1
Heroism: +4
Resistance: +6
Food bonus: +3
Ring of Summons: +2
Vision of Madness: +9
Shake it Off: +4

(Remember, Nocti gets a surprise round, so no Guarded Heath or cheesey run-away-strat for you either)

That's a total of +60. So this hypothetical character stacking basically most save buffs - including some rather niche ones like keeping the Lucky Bracers around for endgame - clears the bar almost exactly (2 points to spare). And it's including what is arguably cheese (Vision having such a low duration, so you have to do some cutscene skips etc.).

It's also assuming a level 20 class with high Fort that has high base Constitution.

That's a lot of ifs - if any of the above isn't true, things fall apart fast. "Normal" base Con? That's +3 removed there. No high Fort? +4 gone or more. No Shake it Off specifically? +4 more gone.

Now, "clearing the bar", as it were, isn't strictly necessary. If you're OK with reloads, you can make do with 8-9 less than the above. So that leaves you with two options as I see it:
- Have more or less every save buff imaginable but don't use Vision of Madness
- Use specifically Vision of Madness, allowing you to possibly eschew a few of the other bonuses

Remember: Bestow Grace of the Champion doesn't work here, since we're a Demon (i.e. can't be targeted by the spell). Obviously there are other ways to boost saves, including a Demon - we're not hitting a ceiling or anything - but that's not my argument. My argument is that you have to build *specifically* for high saves here, because the fight literally cannot be attempted through other means.

No other fight in the game has requirements this specific - like you say, other fights can be harder of easier depending on your "strengths and weaknesses", but if you built a good party, you'll be able to do them, you'll just have to work harder at it (or, well, cheese it). This fight you straight up cannot do unless you stack an insane amount of save bonuses. As well, it is the only fight I've had so far where both enemy effects penetrate all immunities AND are required to win the fight, period (there are other immunity-penetrating things in the game, but these will hamper you rather than lose the fight outright). Specifically the need for Visions of Madness is part of this reasoning - if you don't have that specific Domain power, the numbers game is wildly against you - especially if you don't have a class with high Fort.

Hence why I think it's the hardest fight of the game (at least so far - I don't know if there are similar "have this specific build or it is near enough impossible"-fights later, only just arrived to Act 5).

One strategy you miiiiight be able to take is to attempt to win the fight with only your MC alive, stacking the saves on him, reloading for the numbers you need. Because the above calculations assume PC (Demongraft etc.). You're going to have a hard time getting near those saves with a full party unless building around clearing a 59DC Fort save on six dude is what you built for.
You can use Transformation scroll for +5 fortitude buff, also there is a shield at the end of chapter 4 that gives +1 party wide buff to saves. Fortune + cackle saves you lot's of reloads. On my trickster run i used vison of maddnes on Seelah and Sosiel, for mark of justice and hearth, and than soloed her with my mc.
 

Lambach

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^

Pictured above: advice on how to stack Saves to beat Nocticula.

Now why did proxon choose that particular strategy to deal with that particular encounter, I wonder?

Oh yeah, because it's literally the one and only one that exists, unlike any other encounter in the game.

10/10 design, Owlcat. Next time, just put "Stack Stat [X] to number [Y]" in the Quest Journal so we can focus on stacking one specific number to be higher than some other number and not bother with this stupid "encounter design" bullshit.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Haplo I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Hidden Abode is the most difficult fight in the game...

...Hidden Abode doesn't start with a surprise round, 100% unblockable Seductive Presence DC59 (leaving everyone helpless for 5d4 rounds) followed by a 1232 damage 100% unblockable Wail of the Banshee DC 49 :lol:

Oh and a d20+41 caster level check Dispel Magic (Area) in case the bread wasn't toasted enough at this point.

Definetely the hardest fight of the game by virtue of the sheer numbers game alone (which is fitting considering who you're fighting). You basically need to stack every single save buff imaginable (including probably Fortune-Cackle cheese unless you want to reload alot), which my subpar builds haven't :D

Even with buffs like Vision of Madness + Shake it Off-stacking etc. it's probably a toss-up for companions/MCs with low Fort.

Doesn't the ring from Regill's quest or Shield of Law block Seductive Presence?
As for Wail... hm... tough.
 

Lambach

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Baphomet was so easy, huge let-down tbh.

Like Vordakai from Kingmaker all over again

His AI is retarded, he likes spamming that weak AoE damage Spell that does virtually nothing too much.

But if you let him live for too long, he starts auto-attacking, and that shit can hurt, specially if he previously managed to Dispell your entire Party and put Overwhelming Presence on most of them.
 

Haplo

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This gaze is fucking amazing. Never roll a 1, ever again, on an attack roll, save, or skill check, while this is active. Works on the MC and all allies, including pets as far as I can tell.

I can't believe I didn't see this one before. This is a game-changer.

poweroflaw.jpg
Cool, particularly for tougher fights. But game changer?
Note that you can only have one, later 2 gazes up trough most of the game.

Is it clearly better then up to +5 AB or +10 AB & damage on AoO or up to 50% Concealment - and stripping Conceal from enemies or boost spell DCs by up to +4 or re-roll misses?
Its not an easy choice.
 
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proxon

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^

Pictured above: advice on how to stack Saves to beat Nocticula.

Now why did proxon choose that particular strategy to deal with that particular encounter, I wonder?

Oh yeah, because it's literally the one and only one that exists, unlike any other encounter in the game.

10/10 design, Owlcat. Next time, just put "Stack Stat [X] to number [Y]" in the Quest Journal so we can focus on stacking one specific number to be higher than some other number and not bother with this stupid "encounter design" bullshit.
Yeah, when you compare her fight with the other one you mentioned it's worse in every way. Her loot is shit, she gives like four times less xp and Mephisto fight is way more fun, two rounds of kill or be killed.
 

Yosharian

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Baphomet was so easy, huge let-down tbh.

Like Vordakai from Kingmaker all over again

His AI is retarded, he likes spamming that weak AoE damage Spell that does virtually nothing too much.

But if you let him live for too long, he starts auto-attacking, and that shit can hurt, specially if he previously managed to Dispell your entire Party and put Overwhelming Presence on most of them.
Too bad I killed him in two rounds :hahano:
 

Yosharian

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This gaze is fucking amazing. Never roll a 1, ever again, on an attack roll, save, or skill check, while this is active. Works on the MC and all allies, including pets as far as I can tell.

I can't believe I didn't see this one before. This is a game-changer.

poweroflaw.jpg
Cool, particularly for tougher fights. But game changer?
Note that you can only have one, later 2 gazes up trough most of the game.

Is it clearly better then up to +5 AB or +10 AB & damage on AoO or up to 50% Concealment - and stripping Conceal from enemies or boost spell DCs by up to +4 or re-roll misses?
Its not an easy choice.
Um, yes? It gives +3.5 AB on average + removes Natural 1s from the game. And it does this for saves, too, and skill checks for mounted people.

Starlight already basically removes miss chance, and anyway if you don't have Echolocation or True Seeing on everyone that's a damage dealer what are you doing. Although, if it works against Areelu's miss chance then it's very good in that one fight.

Enemy having miss chance on my guys, um yeah great, oh wait I already have 24H displacement + mind blank on everyone.

AOOs please, if an AOO chain happens then the enemy is fucked already, that AOO gaze barely makes a difference.

Spell DCs yeah not bad but I don't care for my team.

Reroll misses? My team's damage dealers will never miss when rolling a 7 or more.

I think you are severely underestimating how powerful it is to simply remove rolls below 7 from the game.
 

Yosharian

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No Nat 1s ever, not for attack rolls, not for saves, and not for Indomitable Mount checks. Your mount will never go crazy with Stern Hand.

This is a game-changer.

And it's not just nat 1s, it's a minimum of 7 for every roll so you effectively gain +6 to your minimum saving throw roll, considering we were just talking about devastating spells/abilities like Dictum, Noct's DC 59 thingy, etc and how much they change fights...
 

Haplo

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Hm, I'm starting to see the appeal.


Come to think of it, with TTT and Undersized Mount, the Normalize Size Gaze could be a boon for charging...
 

Yosharian

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Consider this, everyone cums in their pants over Improved Improved Crit, with this gaze your D20 roll range becomes 7-20, that is a range of 14, with a crit range of 13-20 (easily achievable with the belt and a 18-20 weapon) you now have 8 chances out of 14 to roll a crit

that's a 57% chance to crit, up from 40%. a trickster would have 9-20 crit range which is 60%, so basically this gaze gives you scuffed Improved Improved Crit. Well, at MR10 it is 57%, but you get the idea. At MR5 which is when you first get access to the gaze, it's only a D20 range of 4-20, which is a range of 16, so that's 8/16 crit chance which is 50%, but that's still a decent increase.


Yeah the Size gaze has some applications too I think, a bit more niche

Edit: ok never mind my mind is messed up from all this Aeon storyline stuff, I made a temporal error
 
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Lambach

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with this gaze your D20 roll range becomes 7-20, that is a range of 14

No it does not, wtf. :lol:

Your roll range is still 1-20, as always. That Gaze only re-adjusts your dice result after you've already rolled and makes it a fixed value. It does not influence the actual roll whatsoever. Unless you can drop your Crit Range to 7-20, this Gaze will not contribute to scoring more Crits.

It can help during Crit Confirmation rolls, if that's what you meant, but not towards actually Threatening a Crit.
 

Yosharian

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with this gaze your D20 roll range becomes 7-20, that is a range of 14

No it does not, wtf. :lol:

Your roll range is still 1-20, as always. That Gaze only re-adjusts your dice result after you've already rolled and makes it a fixed value. It does not influence the actual roll whatsoever. Unless you can drop your Crit Range to 7-20, this Gaze will not contribute to scoring more Crits.

It can help during Crit Confirmation rolls, if that's what you meant, but not towards actually Threatening a Crit.
Oh.

Um.

Damn, you're right.

DAMMIT

Ok well it's still good I stand by my original comment
 

Grunker

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“Desiderius” said:
Playful, Soul Hunter, Quasit, Sarkorian Ghost, Dragon in the Caves

None of these fights qualify for the single criteria we’re discussing :roll:

Reminder of your own claim:

It all depends how you design your party and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Your parties’ strength and weaknesses means the encounters you mentioned get easier or harder.

Your party not being built specifically for save stacking means you can’t survive Nocti’s opener.

If I said you can get your saves up high enough for Nocti fight I was wrong
So what are you disagreeing with here? Again, my claim is that unlike any other fight in the game, Nocticula cannot be approached by a variety of parties; you MUST be able to make that DC 59 save or have magic immunity. That is the only way.

Have you considered Magic Nullification? That's what I'm going to use for my non-Lawful party members who can't reliably beat Dictum's DC 46 Will save insta-kill in that fight that's coming up for my Aeon.

Yep. Currently the plan is try to solo it with Magic Nullification MC once I have the Grandmaster Rod. I think the lack of buffs might make it tricky due to all the enemies and level drain effects in the encounter, but specifically MCs who can one-turn her might have a chance without buffs.

DC 46 should be possible or at least theoretically possible with most chars, no?

After all, this is Nocticula we're talking about, she should be a tough fight.

It’s almost like that thing Grunker was talking about:

“Grunker” said:
The thing is - I'm not even saying it's bad fight design. I would be kind of underwhelmed if taking down possibly the most powerful actor in the game in an optional fight didn't come with some sort of heavy caveat.

The only thing I'm saying is that the fight has very specific, very harsh number requirements that no other fights I know have, and that this in my opinion makes it the hardest fight in the game.

“Lambach” said:
I don't remember her stripping buffs off me

She doesn’t “strip your buffs”, otherwise DC 59 would be truly impossible. She casts a 41 caster check Dispel Magic Area after the other Seductive + Wail opener. It’s not really an issue and can be dealt with in many ways.

“Pohox” said:
Fortune + cackle

Already mentioned this (and it’s basically cheating).
 
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LannTheStupid

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It is quite literally physically impossible for him to distinguish "this encounter is bad design" from "this encounter is too difficult".
Because there is no such distinction. If one thinks of something as "bad design" it means one has to git gud. Even without installing Git.
 

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