Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Desiderius]

Your party not being built specifically for save stacking means you can’t survive Nocti’s opener.

If she doesn't strip your buffs then we're back to this being inaccurate. *Especially* if we're talking about Fascinate where you can stack buffs on one dude (or simply use Indomitable Mount) then break rest of team out with damage.

59 DC isn't trivial but if it's just a case of having a decent shot of breaking out of a save per round effect with those who break out being able to free your teammates that's fine design. You can do that at mid-40s saves which gets back to party design. Being able to spike different strengths and weaknesses depending on the fight is an element of good party design as well. Getting whole party to 60 saves probably costs to much, but not to mid-40s and/or getting one character that high/Indomitable.

 

[Desiderius]

What the actual fuck is going on in this thread.

Because there is no such distinction. If one thinks of something as "bad design" it means one has to git gud. Even without installing Git.

People playing the inappropriate difficulty for their skill level then whining for nerfs.

The usual.

you MUST be able to make that DC 59 save or have magic immunity. That is the only way.

Not if it's Fascinate or save per round. Solid Unfair party should have mid-40s saves by then or at least be able to get them. Wail is the other problem to solve tho, but again on Unfair you're going to want resistance to damage spikes as well.

I'll bow out at this point until I get back to the fight since I don't remember the particulars enough to give specific advice on that one. Just saying as you describe it it shouldn't be impossible, though maybe it requires Last Stand and/or *gasp* a Resurrection or three?

 

[Lambach]

People playing the inappropriate difficulty for their skill level then whining for nerfs.

The usual.

Un fucking real.

* "discussion" is not a good word for it, though, it's actually more like bashing your head against a wall made of bricks and concentrated autism

You can keep saying that it's a bad fight because it goes against the game's core philosophy by giving you one (1) and only one (1) single way to beat it (stack Saves), unlike literally any other fight in the game that can be beaten in many different ways, but in his brain that auto-translates to "I want Owlcat to make the game easier".

 

[Desiderius]

You don't stack (endgame) saves to mid-40s for that specific fight, you stack them there because with competent play it's relatively low cost to do so and and makes every fight go a lot smoother.

Stacking saves to 60 is (probably) a different story but as many have pointed out, that may not be necessary. I've noticed that no one has engaged the difference between Fascinate and Paralyze yet. There's a reason why Fascinate gets around stuff like Rupture Restraints and it's pretty brilliant game design to exploit that loophole and see if the player can figure out that reason.

Big Wails are nothing new:



You just have more tools in Wrath to deal with them.

 

[Lambach]

I can ask about how to beat any other encounter in the game and get a bunch of very different responses from different people, but for Nocticula, every response from every player always boils down to "have high Saves", no exceptions.

And my nigga Desiderius will fight to the death to defend this design choice.

 

[Desiderius]

I can ask about how to beat any other encounter in the game and get a bunch of very different responses from different people, but for Nocticula, every response from every player always boils down to "have high Saves", no exceptions.

And my nigga Desiderius will fight to the death to defend this design choice.

Lol, mid-40s isn't high. You're missing the point. If you had to get to 60 what you're saying would make sense. But you haven't established that that is the case. It's not even clear whether mid-40s is necessary if you can use Indomitable + damage to break Fascinate.

 

[Lambach]

Lol, mid-40s isn't high.

OK, for the sake of argument, let's say that's true. (though it isn't)

Let me rephrase. Every other encounter can be beaten in many different ways, but this is the only one in which there's only one path to victory: relying on Saves exclusively. Can you think of any other problem in this game with just one and exactly one (1) solution? I can't.

 

[Grunker]

Well I did it:

Spoiler

And indeed there is no other way around this fight than either stacking an inordinate amount of save bonuses or magic immunity (notice that Desi has now shifted to saying "all Unfair parties should be able to make that save" rather than claiming it'll just get easier or harder "depending on your party's strengths and weaknesses" - which is funny because again, my only claim was that that was indeed the case with every other fight in the game, whereas this one requires something very specific, so QED).

How I did it:

1) Stack saves on my MC, here's the breakdown:
Con: +8 (thanks to Clutch of Corruption)
Haramaki with Sacred bonus: +4
Light Aura from Hand of the Inheritor Shield: +2
Class Bonus: +6
Transformation (thanks a ton to proxon!!! instead of useless posturing, you actually provided useful information ): +5
Heroism: +4
Resistance: +6
Food: +3
Ring of Summoning: +2
Vision of Madness: +9
Ring of Luck thingy: +1
Total: +50.

Definitely not attainable except by very specific means. Now, what's important to notice here is that even with Vision of Madness, I'm still close to 50/50 (!), at least without Fortune + Cackle cheese which I'm not using, because it's basically cheating.

Additional requirements:

2) I had to add third impossible domain on Camellia for Madness
2.5) As well, Domain Zealot helps here because it effectively means Visions of Madness lasts longer
3) I got Last Stand on everybody
4) I thanked The Ghost of Grunkers Past immensely for randomly putting the +1 luck ring in personal stash

All in all, I personally consider this the hardest encounter, because it's literally the only one that need you to something this incredibly specific and warp builds specifically around the fight. Especially Vision of Madness seem mandatory here if you're not a High Fort class.

The only possible alternative I can maybe see you doing is the magic immunity-route, but I think it's actually harder than just stacking saves, because it requires you to find a way to kill Nocticula AND Shamira without buffs - and the Shamira fight follows directly after (combat stops, then starts again immediately).

 

[Grunker]

Also don't be an idiot like me and forget to fire a Midnight Bolt on your first attempt - I had to do the fight twice

(I fucking hope the Midnight Bolt-thing is well worth it and actually does something lol, so far I haven't found a use for the crystals, Storyteller won't take 'em for instance)

 

[Lambach]

Grunker did you by any chance figure out whether damage does break Seductive Presence or not?

I just remembered that armor that does 2d8 or whatever Cold damage in an AoE around the wearer each Round and hits friendlies too. If damage breaks Fascinate, that thing may be Nocticula's Kryptonite.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker did you by any chance figure out whether damage does break Seductive Presence or not?

It does. It's less useful than it appears, though, because Nocticula will instantly reapply it. You only become immune to it once you actually make the save. So to actually do something with it, you're relying on a specific initiative order (and still need the high saves on someone like I did).

If damage breaks Fascinate, that thing may be Nocticula's Kryptonite.

See above. It'll sort-of-kindda-work (the Light of Inheritor shield also has the 20 damage to all companions ability), but it gets reapplied.

 

[Grunker]

As a final conclusion, I actually like that they chose to implement something like this. Not because it's good encounter design per se (it's build-reliant rather than tactical), but because it makes Nocticula feel like something else entirely than everything else you fight, and considering her status in the game's mythos, anything less would be unacceptable. It does achieve this in a rather brute force manner, but I still like it more than I dislike it.

 

[Lambach]

I fucking hope the Midnight Bolt-thing is well worth it and actually does something lol, so far I haven't found a use for the crystals, Storyteller won't take 'em for instance)

The Crystals do have a use, though managing to use them what they're for is a convoluted endeavor.

I would have almost certainly never managed to figure it out on my own, but there are detailed guides if you don't mind spoilers.

 

[Grunker]

I fucking hope the Midnight Bolt-thing is well worth it and actually does something lol, so far I haven't found a use for the crystals, Storyteller won't take 'em for instance)

The Crystals do have a use, though managing to use them what they're for is a convoluted endeavor.

I would have almost certainly never managed to figure it out on my own, but there are detailed guides if you don't mind spoilers.

I'm playing without spoilers for this first playthrough, so if I end up not achieving their use I'll live with it. I did manage to fight Lantern King blind in Kingmaker, so who knows, maybe I'll luck out here too

 

[Grunker]

Yosharian once you get to this point, could you help me establish whether Profane Invocation is bugged? The description says "Demonic Overlord can grant himself" but the actual Target says "One friendly creature within range."

The effect of this is that you can apply two profane gifts to the whole party, meaning EVERYONE gets +2 profane bonus to 2 different ability scores. I'm going to use it only on MC since it seems to be a bug?

 

[Yosharian]

Light Aura from Hand of the Inheritor Shield

You mean Undying Love of the Hopebringer?

Hmm I wonder if that Insight bonus stacks with the Aeon cloak.

 

[Yosharian]

Yosharian once you get to this point, could you help me establish whether Profane Invocation is bugged? The description says "Demonic Overlord can grant himself" but the actual Target says "One friendly creature within range."

The effect of this is that you can apply two profane gifts to the whole party, meaning EVERYONE gets +2 profane bonus to 2 different ability scores. I'm going to use it only on MC since it seems to be a bug?

I'm playing Aeon at the moment. My Demon playthrough is a loooong way off

Also I may or may not be planning on simping for Noct *cough*

Try asking in the Discord

 

[Grunker]

Also I may or may not be planning on simping for Noct *cough*

 

[Grunker]

Light Aura from Hand of the Inheritor Shield

You mean Undying Love of the Hopebringer?

Indeed.

 

[Lambach]

Also I may or may not be planning on simping for Noct *cough*

Be warned that she wants a submissive housewife only. If you're a Sigma Demon Chad that slaps bitches around all the time, she'll refuse to make you her sex slave because you're too wild and unruly for her (you have to control and suppress your rage during Demon Quests instead).

 

[Grunker]

Lunge is fucking incredible.

 

[Yosharian]

Also I may or may not be planning on simping for Noct *cough*

Be warned that she wants a submissive housewife only. If you're a Sigma Demon Chad that slaps bitches around all the time, she'll refuse to make you her sex slave because you're too wild and unruly for her (you have to control and suppress your rage during Demon Quests instead).

Meh maybe I'll kill her then

 

[Grunker]

Noooo Regill bro, why you leave me :'(

Saw it coming. Still sad.

 

[Grunker]

Also I may or may not be planning on simping for Noct *cough*

Be warned that she wants a submissive housewife only. If you're a Sigma Demon Chad that slaps bitches around all the time, she'll refuse to make you her sex slave because you're too wild and unruly for her (you have to control and suppress your rage during Demon Quests instead).

Meh maybe I'll kill her then

Bear in mind this is just from experience, but as far I can tell, you don't have to act beta (except of to her directly). Basically all those times during demon quests where you can hulk out, do that less often, and she should be OK. In the case of demon rage, it's less beta vs. alpha and more control vs. rage. All the times unleashing your rage could help you, there is an alternate path, such as a high save (Sharima is a good example).

I found it quite cool that they added so much stuff within a branch of the overall branching. You can even allow your past choices to automatically decide who you side with in the final fight. I can see why people might be disappointed by reactivity in their own path if they read this kind of stuff about demons.

 

[Yosharian]

Speaking of saving throws, I did some preliminary calculations for my MC:

Endgame Saving Throws & Other Stats (buffed, with items):

• Fortitude: +67
  • Class Bonus: 17
  • Constitution: +13
  • Inherent: +2 (Demongraft)
  • Insight: +4 (Bound of Possibility)
  • Luck: +1 (Engraved Lucky Bracers)
  • Morale: +8 (Greater Heroism, doubled by ring)
  • Resistance +4 (Greater Angelic Aspect)
  • Other: +4 (Shake It Off)
  • Other: +2 (Bloody Meat)
  • Other: +12 (Divine Grace)
• Reflex: +54
  • Class Bonus: 6
  • Dexterity: +12
  • Inherent: +2 (Demongraft)
  • Luck: +1 (Engraved Lucky Bracers)
  • Insight: +4 (Bound of Possibility)
  • Morale: +8 (Greater Heroism, doubled by ring)
  • Resistance +4 (Greater Angelic Aspect)
  • Other: +4 (Shake It Off)
  • Dodge: +1 (Haste)
  • Other: +12 (Divine Grace)
• Will: +59
  • Class Bonus: 11
  • Wisdom: +7
  • Inherent: +2 (Demongraft)
  • Luck: +1 (Engraved Lucky Bracers)
  • Insight: +4 (Bound of Possibility)
  • Morale: +8 (Greater Heroism, doubled by ring)
  • Resistance +4 (Greater Angelic Aspect)
  • Other: +4 (Shake It Off)
  • Rage: +6 (Inspired Rage)
  • Other: +12 (Divine Grace)

No that Fort Class Bonus of 17 is not a typo

Will saves might be a bit higher in practice due to mythic bonuses, not sure yet