Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Technomancer]

I hate respec options in rpgs, it is a massive decline. Legalized cheats basically, a system that breaks balance and is prone to abuse.

 

[Haplo]

Divine Favor/Power are *Personal*. Righteous Might/Frightful are *Personal*. Eaglesoul is *Personal*. You’ve got Abundant Casting and resting makes your army stronger. That means rnd/lvl stuff is on the menu, especially for the hardest fights. Bubble Buff mod makes it one click.

Yeah, and 3 of those are rounds/level. 1 is 10 rounds fixed. I pretty much only use such buffs in boss fights/hardest fights in the game. Where Sosiel's main contribution are his Domain Powers, Archon's Aura and the occassional Heal / Inspiring Recovery.

The second Luck ability gives advantage for multiple rounds *only to him*. Is there anybody who plays this game who can fucking read?

Hmm, yes. I've decided to pick it on my main this time around to play with it a little. Not sure if it was worth it yet. But hey, more crits are good, right?

He’s the one with the Glaive proficiency from his Diety and the STR to wield it. He’s not even Tristian (who could also slay because of the Personal spells but didn’t have the Domain giving him advantage for multiple rounds or the STR Sos starts with).

As if that's some boon. Glaives aren't exactly good weapons. Well, at least Soulshear is Adamantine and helpful in Blackwater to finish off the cyborgs.

 

[Daidre]

The second Luck ability gives advantage for multiple rounds *only to him*. Is there anybody who plays this game who can fucking read?

Second luck ability on Sosiel is:
a) Takes Standard action to activate without Domain Zealot, so you either waste action in combat or pray that it won't run out in cutscene before important boss fight (like demon lords or Areelu) if you prebuff.
b) Only once per day, can't be separated into several activation like other domain abilities.
c) Wasted on the melee unit of his quality: awful initiative, bad AC, subpar weapon with meh damage and bad crit range and slow move speed. Well, AC and speed could be fixed with the pet, weapon could be fixed proficiency (feat), hit chance could be fixed with Outflank (feat) and Shatter (many feats), damage could be fixed with Mythic Power Attack (feat) and initiative is a lost cause (so yeah, after everything taken and buffed his pet is still better melee).

At the same time Sosiel would also want at least Impossible Domain: Animal, Madness and Community + Domain Zealot to get the most out of him being an only character in the party who starts with Impossible Domain access. So it would take the end of chapter 4 to get decent level of abundant casting. And until then round/lvl Divine Power on Sosiel competes with min/lvl Crusader Edge on MC/Seelah/Regill/Camelia/Woljif etc. And with Freedom of Movement. And with Death Ward. And having at least one copy of Prot vs Elements is good idea too... Damn, cleric's lvl 4 tier is crowded the with a good spells.

 

[Desiderius]

Divine Favor/Power are *Personal*. Righteous Might/Frightful are *Personal*. Eaglesoul is *Personal*. You’ve got Abundant Casting and resting makes your army stronger. That means rnd/lvl stuff is on the menu, especially for the hardest fights. Bubble Buff mod makes it one click.

Yeah, and 3 of those are rounds/level. 1 is 10 rounds fixed. I pretty much only use such buffs in boss fights/hardest fights in the game. Where Sosiel's main contribution are his Domain Powers, Archon's Aura and the occassional Heal / Inspiring Recovery.

The second Luck ability gives advantage for multiple rounds *only to him*. Is there anybody who plays this game who can fucking read?

Hmm, yes. I've decided to pick it on my main this time around to play with it a little. Not sure if it was worth it yet. But hey, more crits are good, right?

He’s the one with the Glaive proficiency from his Diety and the STR to wield it. He’s not even Tristian (who could also slay because of the Personal spells but didn’t have the Domain giving him advantage for multiple rounds or the STR Sos starts with).

As if that's some boon. Glaives aren't exactly good weapons. Well, at least Soulshear is Adamantine and helpful in Blackwater to finish off the cyborgs.

Yes, with Abundant Casting and incentive to rest rnds/lvl abilities become much better in Wrath vs P:K. Update your priors. I was squeezing them in in P:K anyway, they're that good. That's what made Jae dominant and are a key factor in choosing Mythic Paths to open them up on classes that don't normally get them. Very good on QStaff Master Angel.

You can use them on every fight that matters and rnd/lvl and minute abilities will last the whole fight. With Bubble Buff they're easy to apply and can even by Extended if you want.

Glaives are Reach so work well with Size increases to hit things from far away, but not too far for Archon's to work. That's exactly where Sos wants to be with his poor AC. Improved Crit and all the advantage you will get some crits (can add Bless Weapon for auto-confirm) and the x3 is relevant. Similar to what I do with Lann and Longbow.

 

[Desiderius]

The second Luck ability gives advantage for multiple rounds *only to him*. Is there anybody who plays this game who can fucking read?

Second luck ability on Sosiel is:
a) Takes Standard action to activate without Domain Zealot, so you either waste action in combat or pray that it won't run out in cutscene before important boss fight (like demon lords or Areelu) if you prebuff.
b) Only once per day, can't be separated into several activation like other domain abilities.
c) Wasted on the melee unit of his quality: awful initiative, bad AC, subpar weapon with meh damage and bad crit range and slow move speed. Well, AC and speed could be fixed with the pet, weapon could be fixed proficiency (feat), hit chance could be fixed with Outflank (feat) and Shatter (many feats), damage could be fixed with Mythic Power Attack (feat) and initiative is a lost cause (so yeah, after everything taken and buffed his pet is still better melee).

At the same time Sosiel would also want at least Impossible Domain: Animal, Madness and Community + Domain Zealot to get the most out of him being an only character in the party who starts with Impossible Domain access. So it would take the end of chapter 4 to get decent level of abundant casting. And until then round/lvl Divine Power on Sosiel competes with min/lvl Crusader Edge on MC/Seelah/Regill/Camelia/Woljif etc. And with Freedom of Movement. And with Death Ward. And having at least one copy of Prot vs Elements is good idea too... Damn, cleric's lvl 4 tier is crowded the with a good spells.

(a) whole point of playing Sos is using Domain Zealot so moot. Probably also means TB so pick an MC with a lot of Swifts like Aeon to go with. He is Swift-clogged with Zealot so cutscenes are an issue granted. Bubble Buff has a setting to fix that.

(b) It's... not only once per day. Why do people insist on opining on things they haven't tested? Try it and share your observations. Don't negative theory-craft. Here:



A little hard to see but it's three activations. There may be more because it looks like he has some spells burned so isn't rested. It works like Holy Lance I think and picks up additional activations by class level.

(c) He's 3/4, not 1/2. Initiative/AC isn't an issue because he isn't in melee with Reach + Enlarge effects. Weapon is fine and x3 comes up. There are several good Glaives in-game. Pet? What? No, for God's sake don't mount him. He's feat-starved enough already. Mount + Frightful isn't a thing without Reduce shenanigans that defeat the purpose. Stop trying to shoehorn him into your pre-existing ideas and use him as is. He's good.

Speed is irrelevant with Haste up and you've got Boots or whatever. He reaches across half the battlefield so doesn't have as far to go. Outflank is one feat and needed for AoOs while casting. Reach + Enlarge it will come up often.

Shatter is optional but probably a good idea late by the time you've got the feats to get there. He's already stuck on one weapon so Focus isn't a total waste. He can stack a lot of AB already and you can use Blind etc for flat-foot. Damage doesn't need to be fixed with the Size/Luck self-buffs and Crusader's Edge + Holy.



(Delicious Fright from Ember here is autoshaken for one round even on made save. The extra damage packets are Leading Strike from Seelah).

Sos doesn't want Impossible Domain because he's already Swift clogged. He wants Zealot, Abundant Casting, and Ever Ready. Animal Domain is awful.

Yes spells are crowded but you've got Seelah (or Ember, or Cam, or Aru, or even Daeran) to help with that, but so does Abundant on all.

 

[Daidre]

(c) He's 3/4, not 1/2. Initiative/AC isn't an issue because he isn't in melee with Reach + Enlarge effects. Weapon is fine and x3 comes up. There are several good Glaives in-game. Pet? What? No, for God's sake don't mount him. He's feat-starved enough already. Mount + Frightful isn't a thing without Reduce shenanigans that defeat the purpose. Stop trying to shoehorn him into your pre-existing ideas and use him as is. He's good.

So your idea of using Sosiel is to forget about impossible domain and use him as a subpar (but lucky) melee with Glaive and Enlarge? And have Daeran or Ember or whoever else to supply vital clerical staff like Death Ward, because he needs a ton of buffs to hit broad side of a barn?

What an amazing waste of the perfectly nice party slot.

But at least some demonic survivor who was not melted by Daeran's and Ember's Hellfire Rays, shot by Lann or Arushalae, was not overrun by some charging cavalry and saved against Nenio's Wierd will get what he deserves when he, at last, reaches party's melee range at the end of turn 2 and gets whacked for 50 hp by a very patient cleric who was buffing non-stop before and after the fight started for his awfully important contribution.

 

[gurugeorge]

I must admit I always found Sosiel more useful than Daeran. Sosiel is good enough as a healer for what you need (especially with a good phylactery), plus he's pretty handy with the Glaive for the reasons Desiderius mentioned. Daeran can potentially nuke, but I never seemed to find many opportunities to exploit that, and meanwhile his healing is overkill most of the time, so wasted. Basically Daeran spends a lot more time twiddling his thumbs than Sosiel, who mucks in and is useful for damage more regularly, and can occasionally do some quite spectacular crits capable of instantly deleting mobs.

 

[Haplo]

I agree Sosiel is way better overall (though not due to his martial contributions in my case).
But Daeran can contribute a little bit too by spamming Demoralize on priority targets. That's helpful, at least till you get Frightful Aspect (and it will be a while).

 

[Daidre]

Daeran is usually my primary ray-caster with Combat Mystery and Triple fire dragon bloodlines who gets double reroll for his initiative and opens most of the fights with double-cast of 300+ damage Hellfire Ray. But his build usually comes together only at the beginning of chapter 4 where he gets lvl 7-8 spells and gets the staff that pushes his CL up to 19. Before that he has some presence with Fireballs/Firesnakes from the ring, especially against some bothersome enemies like swarms, but nothing special.

Until then Sosiel could be better contributor in non-spellcasting matters, like domain spamming or even melee, but when the hell rays get online his meager melee damage is just laughable when Daeran melts Balors, Vavakias and often Deskari himself with his opening volley. But Ember is built for the same thing and there is not enough gear to supply two similar blasters.

So for me it is competition between Sosiel who got clerical buffs/decent healing/domains/some melee, Daeran with clerical buffs/good healing/good fire blasting and Ember with some buffs/some healing/hexes/good fire blasting. I usually take one or two of them depending on mood and party compositions, but I only used Sosiel in two complete runs - Unfair Angel Oracle and Hard Trickster Kineticist (with Daeran). Both of the runs he was decent contributor in chapters 2&3 but turned into complete buff-bot luggage in chapters 4+. And both were range oriented parties so even better melees like Regill were sitting on their ass patiently and waiting for a chance to clean up some stragglers that reached the party or teleported into backline.

 

[kangaxx]

This game was a noticeable step down from PKM in my book. It's as if they scrapped some of the best things about Kingmaker and dialled the problems up to 11. If anyone gives a fuck what I think, you can read it under this spoiler tag.

This is what I think about the game

I went with an Azata Ranger (always pick ranger archer for first playthrough of anything), kind of a waste of Azata's strengths but it was OK and I liked the idea of a late game GD option. The fetch quest to get GD was a bit pathetic though, pick up some blue cheese, some pretty flowers, and a book? A fucking shopping outing = dragon form I suppose. The content for GD seemed a bit tacked on, and I guess you can just cast the Dragon Form spell to get the same kind of stat buff. The rest of the main party was Seelah, Sosiel, Wenduag, Camellia, Ember.

Things it did well

The old BG1-style map trawling bits were fun again, but it was massively toned down compared to PKM. That was one of the things that made PKM good, and it was noticeable how much less of this was available.

Some good dungeons, locations and set pieces. I know a lot of people didn't like Blackwater for example, but I liked it. I had a lot of fun in the demon city too. The defence of the tavern early on was fun, and the assault on Drezen was quite memorable.

The story and journey felt reasonably 'epic', even if I didn't like it as much as PKM. The difference is that PKM ramped up the urgency as the game advanced, whereas WOTR seemed to achieve the opposite after the early shots fired in the crusade.

There is a huge amount of content, although I think the quality of content has taken a step down. I ended up skipping quite a lot because I had lost interest - it took me 101h in two separate chunks, months and months apart because I burnt out on it.

Loot is decent and there are enough great weapons to keep you interested. Some interesting items/armour too, although maybe they go overboard with magic item drops. I've read that's a Pathfinder thing in general though.


Now for the bad:

General

I like the fact that your actions/choices impact the game, and that you have a lot of different builds and mythic paths. What I don't like is how radically things can change based upon tiny missed dialogue options or missed content a long time after the choice (very often a choice you don't know you're making). I don't mind that in principle, but in a game this long it's frustrating to learn 40h+ after doing something that it has locked you in/out of something that wasn't at all signposted. Yes, "git gud" and "that's just C&C", but I think such large variances works better in tighter games (broad rather than long) to enhance the replayability. The idea of going back and trying Lich or Swarm is appealing, but I will probably never do it because of the sheer time investment, and especially the spectre of crusade management hanging over the game.

I don't like the "exposition dump" option that seems to exist in every conversation with every NPC. It's better that it's hived off under these very obvious options rather than forced into more the main dialogue branches, but I think showing rather than telling would be more effective. Comes across as lazy writing, or maybe just lore copied from a Pathfinder manual.

Tons of bugs and jank again. My Smilodon routinely ran backwards or sideways etc. Camera angles routinely spazzed out. Not the end of the world and nothing game-breaking, but very immersion-breaking and often just funny. A small number of quests bugged out for me, but I have no idea if it locked me out of anything.

Same issues as PKM with game-changing content/dialogue/loot being locked behind dice roll skill checks. I appreciate it isn't exclusive to this game, but it doesn't work well in CRPGs in my book. Too tempting to just reload a failed check, which also means you aren't really punished for having super low skill scores.

Companions

Weak, with highly 'variable' writing. Kingmaker's companions had some issues, but these ones were bad by comparison and didn't pay off even half as well IMO.

As soon as Seelah started playing the stereotype in the prologue it became clear how these people would be written. Caricatures, basically. Funnily enough she's probably one of the more likeable NPCs, albeit things like, "Oh, well, that happened.." on a skill check fail didn't seem to fit with the setting. There were other examples of her voiced lines sounding a bit weird.

I quite liked Wenduag, at least initially. Unashamedly evil yet subservient to power, although moustache-twirlingly over the top. Crazy effective with the awesome throwing axes the game gives you. But her writing was ruined by a "betrayal" in Act 5 that makes no sense in the context of what had happened. Bitch, you just saw me slay demon lords in their own realm and then turn into a fucking dragon. Literal dragon form. Yet you think siding with that low difficulty demon was a clever idea? She and her master were sucking the floor within seconds... but apparently I could forgive her and have her back in the party? At least punish me properly and kill her off permanently (although that would have been annoying too given the apparent requirements for non-betrayal). Not great writing IMO.

Camellia had a similar problem. I let her dad go in Act 5 and she asked me to celebrate by slaughtering twenty or so servants for fun. So I suggested this is a bit unnecessary and she attacked me... of course she was sucking the floor within seconds at the hands of a dragon that probably destroyed the ceiling of her dad's house, but at least she stayed dead. Her writing throughout the game felt like being bludgeoned over the head by the devs. "You've accepted a completely broken companion into the fold and are enabling a murderer! Naughty gamer!" I didn't feel guilty, just that the game was trying to make me feel so. Bad writing. I liked the touch of random severed heads appearing in the inventory though.. it was effective, until it was revealed she was the source of them.

Sosiel? Bit of a ladyboy. But at least his quest line was half decent. When I found his brother, and even better found through dialogue he was recruitable, I got momentarily excited. Then I looked at his stats and set him to camp sweeping duty. What a wasted opportunity. They should have made it more difficult to get him and then actually reward you with a good character, forcing a choice between him and an established party member (Saverok in TOB somewhat comes to mind, although from memory he just turns up and doesn't require special actions to recruit).

Ember. "You're a good person! I like you". Very strong but annoying as fuck. Gay questline where she converts demons and cultists by the power of being nice, most likely a nod to the Reddit crowd. Could have been interesting if she turned out to be a fledgling golden dragon too, which might have made sense given the "see good in everything" angle. Nope. Really useful party member though, especially if you don't want the furry, who is the worst NPC in the entire game. And that's saying something.

Arushalae came across as a manga waifu, and I replaced Camellia with her when I offed her. Whiny and annoying. Comes across as having a pathetic personality, which is grating when she's so strong. Couldn't they have kept a dark streak in her and made the whole "conversion to good" storyline have stakes of some kind? Her questline amounted to clicking on some furniture and killing a few trash mobs, plus I suppose the piss easy fight in the demon city. She came across as an angsty millennial wrestling with her past "misgendering" of a troon or something. Not a succubus who had consumed countless lives.

The others I haven't mentioned were bang average as well. Nenio felt like a nod to the degenerate furry crowd with the most annoying personality I've ever seen in a game of any kind, and a terrible quest. Did I miss a joke here perhaps? Greybor? Again, couldn't be bothered finishing his quest. Lann? What a prick. I couldn't kill him off fast enough. Daeren was somewhat interesting, but I just didn't care enough to do his quest. Regill was actually ok. I probably should have had him in the main party. Woljif was also whiny and annoying, although his quest was semi-interesting.

And then the ending slides tried to make me feel bad about how much content I left on the table by saying, "You didn't care enough about X or his problems", as though this was somehow my failing rather than the writers'. Massive step down from PKM.

And then there's the tacked on lesbian couple. I'm not fussed by having gay stuff in game, but at least try and make it fit in, or relevant. Instead we have Anevia whining endlessly about her wife, and it really does seem to be the only thing she cares about. There's an existential inter-planar war going on. People are being slaughtered by demons in their owns homes, but you wouldn't know it from talking to her. She just really wants that massive Orc dildo. Again, shit writing.

Crusade management

Could whine all day about this, but it almost single-handedly ruins the game. They must have been smoking crack when they came up it. Amazingly, someone must have played it and thoughts, "Yeah, this is good enough to go in the game".

People compare it to kingdom management in Kingmaker, but that was leagues above the crusade bits in WOTR. From the broken banner system to the extremely punishing nature of it until you work it out and have decent recruitment, and then it just becomes a chore. There's no real strategy involved and it often doesn't even make sense in context.

For example there should be zone control/taunt much earlier on, because as it is tanks have little value until you can get a general with 4 slots to box off some archers. You have stupid situations where 200 tank troops on one square can be bypassed by 1 enemy with no counterplay. 1 archer takes up the same amount of the general's birdbrain attention as 10,000 Hellknights, as they each fit into one square. It's just awful. Army sizer limits should be bigger by default IMO.

Nothing other than arcane generals are worth. Against some foes it's too easy to be enervated/stunlocked/sthinking clouded/feared etc. and force a reload. Also why does a single target ray spell knock out scores of enemies? Conversely there are way too many spells in your arsenal that seem useless.

I've heard you can completely mod this feature out, which might actually make the game replayable. But if that still makes you miss content from the crusade element then it's just a game-ruining feature.

No coincidence that the best bits of the game are the ones where there is no crusade management IMO. If they completely removed it, the game would probably go from a 5 to a 6 or even 7.

Enemies

Personal choice I suppose, but I got bored of fighting nothing but demons. In PKM there was some variety, and I think it was sorely lacking in this game. Given the story they chose I understand why there is little variety, but I didn't like it as much.

I could probably go on and on, but those are the main things I'll remember about this game. Not very impressive as a follow up to a fun but slightly flawed game. As you can probably tell I am extremely butthurt given how much I like this kind of party-based game.

And if you actually bothered to read all of that I'll buy you a beer.

 

[Humbaba]

Daeran can absolutely not replace a proper cleric, if you're gonna replace anybody with Daeran it's gonna be a mage.

 

[Stoned Ape]

This game was a noticeable step down from PKM in my book. It's as if they scrapped some of the best things about Kingmaker and dialled the problems up to 11. If anyone gives a fuck what I think, you can read it under this spoiler tag.

This is what I think about the game

I went with an Azata Ranger (always pick ranger archer for first playthrough of anything), kind of a waste of Azata's strengths but it was OK and I liked the idea of a late game GD option. The fetch quest to get GD was a bit pathetic though, pick up some blue cheese, some pretty flowers, and a book? A fucking shopping outing = dragon form I suppose. The content for GD seemed a bit tacked on, and I guess you can just cast the Dragon Form spell to get the same kind of stat buff. The rest of the main party was Seelah, Sosiel, Wenduag, Camellia, Ember.

Things it did well

The old BG1-style map trawling bits were fun again, but it was massively toned down compared to PKM. That was one of the things that made PKM good, and it was noticeable how much less of this was available.

Some good dungeons, locations and set pieces. I know a lot of people didn't like Blackwater for example, but I liked it. I had a lot of fun in the demon city too. The defence of the tavern early on was fun, and the assault on Drezen was quite memorable.

The story and journey felt reasonably 'epic', even if I didn't like it as much as PKM. The difference is that PKM ramped up the urgency as the game advanced, whereas WOTR seemed to achieve the opposite after the early shots fired in the crusade.

There is a huge amount of content, although I think the quality of content has taken a step down. I ended up skipping quite a lot because I had lost interest - it took me 101h in two separate chunks, months and months apart because I burnt out on it.

Loot is decent and there are enough great weapons to keep you interested. Some interesting items/armour too, although maybe they go overboard with magic item drops. I've read that's a Pathfinder thing in general though.


Now for the bad:

General

I like the fact that your actions/choices impact the game, and that you have a lot of different builds and mythic paths. What I don't like is how radically things can change based upon tiny missed dialogue options or missed content a long time after the choice (very often a choice you don't know you're making). I don't mind that in principle, but in a game this long it's frustrating to learn 40h+ after doing something that it has locked you in/out of something that wasn't at all signposted. Yes, "git gud" and "that's just C&C", but I think such large variances works better in tighter games (broad rather than long) to enhance the replayability. The idea of going back and trying Lich or Swarm is appealing, but I will probably never do it because of the sheer time investment, and especially the spectre of crusade management hanging over the game.

I don't like the "exposition dump" option that seems to exist in every conversation with every NPC. It's better that it's hived off under these very obvious options rather than forced into more the main dialogue branches, but I think showing rather than telling would be more effective. Comes across as lazy writing, or maybe just lore copied from a Pathfinder manual.

Tons of bugs and jank again. My Smilodon routinely ran backwards or sideways etc. Camera angles routinely spazzed out. Not the end of the world and nothing game-breaking, but very immersion-breaking and often just funny. A small number of quests bugged out for me, but I have no idea if it locked me out of anything.

Same issues as PKM with game-changing content/dialogue/loot being locked behind dice roll skill checks. I appreciate it isn't exclusive to this game, but it doesn't work well in CRPGs in my book. Too tempting to just reload a failed check, which also means you aren't really punished for having super low skill scores.

Companions

Weak, with highly 'variable' writing. Kingmaker's companions had some issues, but these ones were bad by comparison and didn't pay off even half as well IMO.

As soon as Seelah started playing the stereotype in the prologue it became clear how these people would be written. Caricatures, basically. Funnily enough she's probably one of the more likeable NPCs, albeit things like, "Oh, well, that happened.." on a skill check fail didn't seem to fit with the setting. There were other examples of her voiced lines sounding a bit weird.

I quite liked Wenduag, at least initially. Unashamedly evil yet subservient to power, although moustache-twirlingly over the top. Crazy effective with the awesome throwing axes the game gives you. But her writing was ruined by a "betrayal" in Act 5 that makes no sense in the context of what had happened. Bitch, you just saw me slay demon lords in their own realm and then turn into a fucking dragon. Literal dragon form. Yet you think siding with that low difficulty demon was a clever idea? She and her master were sucking the floor within seconds... but apparently I could forgive her and have her back in the party? At least punish me properly and kill her off permanently (although that would have been annoying too given the apparent requirements for non-betrayal). Not great writing IMO.

Camellia had a similar problem. I let her dad go in Act 5 and she asked me to celebrate by slaughtering twenty or so servants for fun. So I suggested this is a bit unnecessary and she attacked me... of course she was sucking the floor within seconds at the hands of a dragon that probably destroyed the ceiling of her dad's house, but at least she stayed dead. Her writing throughout the game felt like being bludgeoned over the head by the devs. "You've accepted a completely broken companion into the fold and are enabling a murderer! Naughty gamer!" I didn't feel guilty, just that the game was trying to make me feel so. Bad writing. I liked the touch of random severed heads appearing in the inventory though.. it was effective, until it was revealed she was the source of them.

Sosiel? Bit of a ladyboy. But at least his quest line was half decent. When I found his brother, and even better found through dialogue he was recruitable, I got momentarily excited. Then I looked at his stats and set him to camp sweeping duty. What a wasted opportunity. They should have made it more difficult to get him and then actually reward you with a good character, forcing a choice between him and an established party member (Saverok in TOB somewhat comes to mind, although from memory he just turns up and doesn't require special actions to recruit).

Ember. "You're a good person! I like you". Very strong but annoying as fuck. Gay questline where she converts demons and cultists by the power of being nice, most likely a nod to the Reddit crowd. Could have been interesting if she turned out to be a fledgling golden dragon too, which might have made sense given the "see good in everything" angle. Nope. Really useful party member though, especially if you don't want the furry, who is the worst NPC in the entire game. And that's saying something.

Arushalae came across as a manga waifu, and I replaced Camellia with her when I offed her. Whiny and annoying. Comes across as having a pathetic personality, which is grating when she's so strong. Couldn't they have kept a dark streak in her and made the whole "conversion to good" storyline have stakes of some kind? Her questline amounted to clicking on some furniture and killing a few trash mobs, plus I suppose the piss easy fight in the demon city. She came across as an angsty millennial wrestling with her past "misgendering" of a troon or something. Not a succubus who had consumed countless lives.

The others I haven't mentioned were bang average as well. Nenio felt like a nod to the degenerate furry crowd with the most annoying personality I've ever seen in a game of any kind, and a terrible quest. Did I miss a joke here perhaps? Greybor? Again, couldn't be bothered finishing his quest. Lann? What a prick. I couldn't kill him off fast enough. Daeren was somewhat interesting, but I just didn't care enough to do his quest. Regill was actually ok. I probably should have had him in the main party. Woljif was also whiny and annoying, although his quest was semi-interesting.

And then the ending slides tried to make me feel bad about how much content I left on the table by saying, "You didn't care enough about X or his problems", as though this was somehow my failing rather than the writers'. Massive step down from PKM.

And then there's the tacked on lesbian couple. I'm not fussed by having gay stuff in game, but at least try and make it fit in, or relevant. Instead we have Anevia whining endlessly about her wife, and it really does seem to be the only thing she cares about. There's an existential inter-planar war going on. People are being slaughtered by demons in their owns homes, but you wouldn't know it from talking to her. She just really wants that massive Orc dildo. Again, shit writing.

Crusade management

Could whine all day about this, but it almost single-handedly ruins the game. They must have been smoking crack when they came up it. Amazingly, someone must have played it and thoughts, "Yeah, this is good enough to go in the game".

People compare it to kingdom management in Kingmaker, but that was leagues above the crusade bits in WOTR. From the broken banner system to the extremely punishing nature of it until you work it out and have decent recruitment, and then it just becomes a chore. There's no real strategy involved and it often doesn't even make sense in context.

For example there should be zone control/taunt much earlier on, because as it is tanks have little value until you can get a general with 4 slots to box off some archers. You have stupid situations where 200 tank troops on one square can be bypassed by 1 enemy with no counterplay. 1 archer takes up the same amount of the general's birdbrain attention as 10,000 Hellknights, as they each fit into one square. It's just awful. Army sizer limits should be bigger by default IMO.

Nothing other than arcane generals are worth. Against some foes it's too easy to be enervated/stunlocked/sthinking clouded/feared etc. and force a reload. Also why does a single target ray spell knock out scores of enemies? Conversely there are way too many spells in your arsenal that seem useless.

I've heard you can completely mod this feature out, which might actually make the game replayable. But if that still makes you miss content from the crusade element then it's just a game-ruining feature.

No coincidence that the best bits of the game are the ones where there is no crusade management IMO. If they completely removed it, the game would probably go from a 5 to a 6 or even 7.

Enemies

Personal choice I suppose, but I got bored of fighting nothing but demons. In PKM there was some variety, and I think it was sorely lacking in this game. Given the story they chose I understand why there is little variety, but I didn't like it as much.

I could probably go on and on, but those are the main things I'll remember about this game. Not very impressive as a follow up to a fun but slightly flawed game. As you can probably tell I am extremely butthurt given how much I like this kind of party-based game.

And if you actually bothered to read all of that I'll buy you a beer.

This is a link to the Crusade auto-win fight mod if you need it at some point:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/40?tab=description

I play without it for some godforsaken reason, still haven't figured out why!

Currently doing a Lich run which actually helps the crusade out post-Drezen. You pick up a stack of around 700 skeletons along with a similar number of zombies immediately, and the already OP mage generals get a power boost to their spellcasting and access to extra necromancy spells (one of which attacks everything along a row of the battle grid).

Together, these upgrades helped me wipe every demon army of rank 9 or below I can get to before I've even started the dragon hunt (and my 2 armies are both rank 7, which shows you how stupidly strong the upgraded wizard generals are).

 

[Desiderius]

The subpar shit again.

Subpar compared to what? Once you get Frightful not to much. Until then he does a lot of good things (starting with Marching Terror) and yes when I’m playing TB he ends up being the best place to put that Touch of Good sometimes because he’s got advantage and hits hard. O/W he’s casting Prayer and giving Wolj/MC advantage for the entire following turn (while being in position to snipe big AoOs at full BAB), which is a good turn.

He’s there for the fast Divine progression (and Domain abilities that function like Hexes but Swift). Once he’s there he slays just like Tristian did for me except with much better STR, Medium Armor, and already with a weapon so saving a feat.

What’s subpar is using the same approach you used in P:K where the rest incentives are reversed relative to Wrath and not taking advantage of half of your spellbook/abilities on multiple characters.

 

[Yosharian]

This game was a noticeable step down from PKM in my book. It's as if they scrapped some of the best things about Kingmaker and dialled the problems up to 11. If anyone gives a fuck what I think, you can read it under this spoiler tag.

This is what I think about the game

I went with an Azata Ranger (always pick ranger archer for first playthrough of anything), kind of a waste of Azata's strengths but it was OK and I liked the idea of a late game GD option. The fetch quest to get GD was a bit pathetic though, pick up some blue cheese, some pretty flowers, and a book? A fucking shopping outing = dragon form I suppose. The content for GD seemed a bit tacked on, and I guess you can just cast the Dragon Form spell to get the same kind of stat buff. The rest of the main party was Seelah, Sosiel, Wenduag, Camellia, Ember.

Things it did well

The old BG1-style map trawling bits were fun again, but it was massively toned down compared to PKM. That was one of the things that made PKM good, and it was noticeable how much less of this was available.

Some good dungeons, locations and set pieces. I know a lot of people didn't like Blackwater for example, but I liked it. I had a lot of fun in the demon city too. The defence of the tavern early on was fun, and the assault on Drezen was quite memorable.

The story and journey felt reasonably 'epic', even if I didn't like it as much as PKM. The difference is that PKM ramped up the urgency as the game advanced, whereas WOTR seemed to achieve the opposite after the early shots fired in the crusade.

There is a huge amount of content, although I think the quality of content has taken a step down. I ended up skipping quite a lot because I had lost interest - it took me 101h in two separate chunks, months and months apart because I burnt out on it.

Loot is decent and there are enough great weapons to keep you interested. Some interesting items/armour too, although maybe they go overboard with magic item drops. I've read that's a Pathfinder thing in general though.


Now for the bad:

General

I like the fact that your actions/choices impact the game, and that you have a lot of different builds and mythic paths. What I don't like is how radically things can change based upon tiny missed dialogue options or missed content a long time after the choice (very often a choice you don't know you're making). I don't mind that in principle, but in a game this long it's frustrating to learn 40h+ after doing something that it has locked you in/out of something that wasn't at all signposted. Yes, "git gud" and "that's just C&C", but I think such large variances works better in tighter games (broad rather than long) to enhance the replayability. The idea of going back and trying Lich or Swarm is appealing, but I will probably never do it because of the sheer time investment, and especially the spectre of crusade management hanging over the game.

I don't like the "exposition dump" option that seems to exist in every conversation with every NPC. It's better that it's hived off under these very obvious options rather than forced into more the main dialogue branches, but I think showing rather than telling would be more effective. Comes across as lazy writing, or maybe just lore copied from a Pathfinder manual.

Tons of bugs and jank again. My Smilodon routinely ran backwards or sideways etc. Camera angles routinely spazzed out. Not the end of the world and nothing game-breaking, but very immersion-breaking and often just funny. A small number of quests bugged out for me, but I have no idea if it locked me out of anything.

Same issues as PKM with game-changing content/dialogue/loot being locked behind dice roll skill checks. I appreciate it isn't exclusive to this game, but it doesn't work well in CRPGs in my book. Too tempting to just reload a failed check, which also means you aren't really punished for having super low skill scores.

Companions

Weak, with highly 'variable' writing. Kingmaker's companions had some issues, but these ones were bad by comparison and didn't pay off even half as well IMO.

As soon as Seelah started playing the stereotype in the prologue it became clear how these people would be written. Caricatures, basically. Funnily enough she's probably one of the more likeable NPCs, albeit things like, "Oh, well, that happened.." on a skill check fail didn't seem to fit with the setting. There were other examples of her voiced lines sounding a bit weird.

I quite liked Wenduag, at least initially. Unashamedly evil yet subservient to power, although moustache-twirlingly over the top. Crazy effective with the awesome throwing axes the game gives you. But her writing was ruined by a "betrayal" in Act 5 that makes no sense in the context of what had happened. Bitch, you just saw me slay demon lords in their own realm and then turn into a fucking dragon. Literal dragon form. Yet you think siding with that low difficulty demon was a clever idea? She and her master were sucking the floor within seconds... but apparently I could forgive her and have her back in the party? At least punish me properly and kill her off permanently (although that would have been annoying too given the apparent requirements for non-betrayal). Not great writing IMO.

Camellia had a similar problem. I let her dad go in Act 5 and she asked me to celebrate by slaughtering twenty or so servants for fun. So I suggested this is a bit unnecessary and she attacked me... of course she was sucking the floor within seconds at the hands of a dragon that probably destroyed the ceiling of her dad's house, but at least she stayed dead. Her writing throughout the game felt like being bludgeoned over the head by the devs. "You've accepted a completely broken companion into the fold and are enabling a murderer! Naughty gamer!" I didn't feel guilty, just that the game was trying to make me feel so. Bad writing. I liked the touch of random severed heads appearing in the inventory though.. it was effective, until it was revealed she was the source of them.

Sosiel? Bit of a ladyboy. But at least his quest line was half decent. When I found his brother, and even better found through dialogue he was recruitable, I got momentarily excited. Then I looked at his stats and set him to camp sweeping duty. What a wasted opportunity. They should have made it more difficult to get him and then actually reward you with a good character, forcing a choice between him and an established party member (Saverok in TOB somewhat comes to mind, although from memory he just turns up and doesn't require special actions to recruit).

Ember. "You're a good person! I like you". Very strong but annoying as fuck. Gay questline where she converts demons and cultists by the power of being nice, most likely a nod to the Reddit crowd. Could have been interesting if she turned out to be a fledgling golden dragon too, which might have made sense given the "see good in everything" angle. Nope. Really useful party member though, especially if you don't want the furry, who is the worst NPC in the entire game. And that's saying something.

Arushalae came across as a manga waifu, and I replaced Camellia with her when I offed her. Whiny and annoying. Comes across as having a pathetic personality, which is grating when she's so strong. Couldn't they have kept a dark streak in her and made the whole "conversion to good" storyline have stakes of some kind? Her questline amounted to clicking on some furniture and killing a few trash mobs, plus I suppose the piss easy fight in the demon city. She came across as an angsty millennial wrestling with her past "misgendering" of a troon or something. Not a succubus who had consumed countless lives.

The others I haven't mentioned were bang average as well. Nenio felt like a nod to the degenerate furry crowd with the most annoying personality I've ever seen in a game of any kind, and a terrible quest. Did I miss a joke here perhaps? Greybor? Again, couldn't be bothered finishing his quest. Lann? What a prick. I couldn't kill him off fast enough. Daeren was somewhat interesting, but I just didn't care enough to do his quest. Regill was actually ok. I probably should have had him in the main party. Woljif was also whiny and annoying, although his quest was semi-interesting.

And then the ending slides tried to make me feel bad about how much content I left on the table by saying, "You didn't care enough about X or his problems", as though this was somehow my failing rather than the writers'. Massive step down from PKM.

And then there's the tacked on lesbian couple. I'm not fussed by having gay stuff in game, but at least try and make it fit in, or relevant. Instead we have Anevia whining endlessly about her wife, and it really does seem to be the only thing she cares about. There's an existential inter-planar war going on. People are being slaughtered by demons in their owns homes, but you wouldn't know it from talking to her. She just really wants that massive Orc dildo. Again, shit writing.

Crusade management

Could whine all day about this, but it almost single-handedly ruins the game. They must have been smoking crack when they came up it. Amazingly, someone must have played it and thoughts, "Yeah, this is good enough to go in the game".

People compare it to kingdom management in Kingmaker, but that was leagues above the crusade bits in WOTR. From the broken banner system to the extremely punishing nature of it until you work it out and have decent recruitment, and then it just becomes a chore. There's no real strategy involved and it often doesn't even make sense in context.

For example there should be zone control/taunt much earlier on, because as it is tanks have little value until you can get a general with 4 slots to box off some archers. You have stupid situations where 200 tank troops on one square can be bypassed by 1 enemy with no counterplay. 1 archer takes up the same amount of the general's birdbrain attention as 10,000 Hellknights, as they each fit into one square. It's just awful. Army sizer limits should be bigger by default IMO.

Nothing other than arcane generals are worth. Against some foes it's too easy to be enervated/stunlocked/sthinking clouded/feared etc. and force a reload. Also why does a single target ray spell knock out scores of enemies? Conversely there are way too many spells in your arsenal that seem useless.

I've heard you can completely mod this feature out, which might actually make the game replayable. But if that still makes you miss content from the crusade element then it's just a game-ruining feature.

No coincidence that the best bits of the game are the ones where there is no crusade management IMO. If they completely removed it, the game would probably go from a 5 to a 6 or even 7.

Enemies

Personal choice I suppose, but I got bored of fighting nothing but demons. In PKM there was some variety, and I think it was sorely lacking in this game. Given the story they chose I understand why there is little variety, but I didn't like it as much.

I could probably go on and on, but those are the main things I'll remember about this game. Not very impressive as a follow up to a fun but slightly flawed game. As you can probably tell I am extremely butthurt given how much I like this kind of party-based game.

And if you actually bothered to read all of that I'll buy you a beer.

This is a link to the Crusade auto-win fight mod if you need it at some point:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/40?tab=description

I play without it for some godforsaken reason, still haven't figured out why!

Currently doing a Lich run which actually helps the crusade out post-Drezen. You pick up a stack of around 700 skeletons along with a similar number of zombies immediately, and the already OP mage generals get a power boost to their spellcasting and access to extra necromancy spells (one of which attacks everything along a row of the battle grid).

Together, these upgrades helped me wipe every demon army of rank 9 or below I can get to before I've even started the dragon hunt (and my 2 armies are both rank 7, which shows you how stupidly strong the upgraded wizard generals are).

Support for that mod has been abandoned and there are several users saying it doesn't work for the latest patch

 

[Desiderius]

Daeran is usually my primary ray-caster with Combat Mystery and Triple fire dragon bloodlines who gets double reroll for his initiative and opens most of the fights with double-cast of 300+ damage Hellfire Ray. But his build usually comes together only at the beginning of chapter 4 where he gets lvl 7-8 spells and gets the staff that pushes his CL up to 19. Before that he has some presence with Fireballs/Firesnakes from the ring, especially against some bothersome enemies like swarms, but nothing special.

Until then Sosiel could be better contributor in non-spellcasting matters, like domain spamming or even melee, but when the hell rays get online his meager melee damage is just laughable when Daeran melts Balors, Vavakias and often Deskari himself with his opening volley. But Ember is built for the same thing and there is not enough gear to supply two similar blasters.

So for me it is competition between Sosiel who got clerical buffs/decent healing/domains/some melee, Daeran with clerical buffs/good healing/good fire blasting and Ember with some buffs/some healing/hexes/good fire blasting. I usually take one or two of them depending on mood and party compositions, but I only used Sosiel in two complete runs - Unfair Angel Oracle and Hard Trickster Kineticist (with Daeran). Both of the runs he was decent contributor in chapters 2&3 but turned into complete buff-bot luggage in chapters 4+. And both were range oriented parties so even better melees like Regill were sitting on their ass patiently and waiting for a chance to clean up some stragglers that reached the party or teleported into backline.

Neither one come with ranged Feats or abilities and both get Frightful Aspect. After Haplo showed us what size effects could do and given the self-buffs it doesnt make sense to let that go to waste.

Arrow of Law and Searing Touch are both pretty good in this setting so rays are decent, but Crusader’s Edge and Outflank AoOs gives the nod to melee. Sound Burst, Prayer, and Smite into midgame, then you can nuke or Abjure or whatever late.

Don’t need Precise for Unholy Stormbolts. Daeran makes a good Intimidator until his spells and combat abilities develop. Vaguely recall Sos getting WIS-to-Intimidate as well tho never used it.

 

[Desiderius]

Glaive and Enlarge?

Until the superior Righteous Might comes online. And of course the great Frightful Aspect and other incomparable late game buffs. Major feature of the class.

And have Daeran or Ember or whoever else to supply vital clerical staff like Death Ward, because he needs a ton of buffs to hit broad side of a barn?

I usually don't run Daeran with Sos, and have a hard time fitting Ember in. Most of the game Death Ward is unnecessary. In the places it is just need one cast of Divine Power and the rest of his casts go to Ward and there's a item that casts one.

It's... not a ton. It's usually one (Divine Favor/Power) then two with Righteous Might and three with Eaglesoul. If you're too lazy to do that why are you lecturing me?

But at least some demonic survivor who was not melted by Daeran's and Ember's Hellfire Rays, shot by Lann or Arushalae, was not overrun by some charging cavalry and saved against Nenio's Wierd will get what he deserves when he, at last, reaches party's melee range at the end of turn 2 and gets whacked for 50 hp by a very patient cleric who was buffing non-stop before and after the fight started for his awfully important contribution.

Hellfire Rays and Weird - ok it's the endgame fantasyland thing again. Some of us enjoy playing the actual game thru and using the spells and abilities we get along the way. Frightful shows up before Weird and third Ray too.

Buffbot makes nonstop meaningless. It's three whole buffs max - they get better as you level on their own. More than 50 hp here, I'm not sure why your sucking is relevant to my advice.

The collapse of the objective into the subjective is an interesting phenomenon.

 

[Daidre]

Subpar compared to what?

My standards are pretty complicated, but my litmus test for melee - if character most of the time is is outperformed by the pet, at damaging and tanking both - he has no place at my frontline. Waste of space, literally.

Camelia, for example, is mid BAB too but she got an amazing DEX, good AC, elemental barrage, divine might, high crit range weapon and can get Improved Crit, Outflank and Shatter pretty early. She doesn't need divine Might to hit most enemies in the game with at least first two attacks and won't die to one full attack if she decides to leave the "blob" and gets targeted by some random demon.
Or Woljif - amazing DEX, good AC, full set of wizard's defensive buff up to lvl 6 like Shield and Mirror Image, sneaks, injuries, maybe barrage with the kukries, Outflank, Improved Crit and Shatter on schedule.

That is what on-par melee characters look like, and their most optimal action in combat would be hitting an enemy, 9 times out of 10. But Sosiel never gets there defense wise and always behind the schedule offense wise, because of mediocre stats, wasted feats and sheer usefulness of his spells and domain abilities. And I prefer build around areas where character shines instead of wasting limited feat, mythic abilities and spell slots to compensate his performance in the area where he is lacking until he achieves wonderful "not completely sucks" place.

I usually don't run Daeran with Sos, and have a hard time fitting Ember in. Most of the game Death Ward is unnecessary. In the places it is just need one cast of Divine Power and the rest of his casts go to Ward and there's a item that casts one.

I guess one may not bother about Death Ward if he believes that resting makes his crusade stronger and sits in each dungeon for weeks to always have his per rest abilities available. I mean, drain will falls off anyway, with a passage of time.

 

[Desiderius]

Subpar compared to what?

My standards are pretty complicated, but my litmus test for melee - if character most of the time is is outperformed by the pet, at damaging and tanking both - he has no place at my frontline. Waste of space, literally.

Camelia, for example, is mid BAB too but she got an amazing DEX, good AC, elemental barrage, divine might, high crit range weapon and can get Improved Crit, Outflank and Shatter pretty early. She doesn't need divine Might to hit most enemies in the game with at least first two attacks and won't die to one full attack if she decides to leave the "blob" and gets targeted by some random demon.
Or Woljif - amazing DEX, good AC, full set of wizard's defensive buff up to lvl 6 like Shield and Mirror Image, sneaks, injuries, maybe barrage with the kukries, Outflank, Improved Crit and Shatter on schedule.

That is what on-par melee characters look like, and their most optimal action in combat would be hitting an enemy, 9 times out of 10. But Sosiel never gets there defense wise and always behind the schedule offense wise, because of mediocre stats, wasted feats and sheer usefulness of his spells and domain abilities. And I prefer build around areas where character shines instead of wasting limited feat, mythic abilities and spell slots to compensate his performance in the area where he is lacking until he achieves wonderful "not completely sucks" place.

I usually don't run Daeran with Sos, and have a hard time fitting Ember in. Most of the game Death Ward is unnecessary. In the places it is just need one cast of Divine Power and the rest of his casts go to Ward and there's a item that casts one.

I guess one may not bother about Death Ward if he believes that resting makes his crusade stronger and sits in each dungeon for weeks to always have his per rest abilities available. I mean, drain will falls off anyway, with a passage of time.

Tanking? He has Reach and you keep him Enlarged. He's not on the front lines, that's the whole point. He hardly ever gets attacked, and makes a good guard for anything trying to get to your backlines (esepcially once you can fit in Ever Ready - big bonus). Yeah, front lines get crowded, *that's why you play him*. Zerg leaves him in good position away from frontlines and you can use Touch during the Charge (like Seelah does Smite). Next round he casts Prayer, does another Touch/Luck on front liner, and cleans up AoOs. After that can slay or cast as needed.

She has 20 DEX, he has 16 STR. That's a whole +2 AB out of 30(?) by the time you get him and nearing 100 endgame. Your scale is still stuck in 3.5. She has Reduce alone while the Cleric Size buffs end up giving him a bigger STR bonus than she can get from Reduce while increasing his dice instead of decreasing. She has to burn two Feats (and has already spent one) getting to what he starts with - main stat to damage. Which is all moot since neither she nor Wolj get the Divine stuff you need. You run them both or all three and him being in the middle makes room for them.

It absolutely is tight if you want to get Mythic Focus and Outflank et al in there. Thing is there aren't many Mythic Feats he wants (other than Evo Focus, which depending how melee Heavy you do you might not even want) so you can use Mythic Feats for Mythic abilities and/or regular Feats and get there. By the time you're talking about Weird or Hellfire or whatever it's all there and the important stuff sooner. You basically trade Sorcerous Reflex for Zealot which is a good trade since you've got a lot more Domain activations than spells. Abundant, Zealot, Improved Abundant, Shatter if you want it. Outflank, Focus, Display. I usually get Evo Focus after Outflank then have Shatter by Darkness IIRC.

Resting does make the Crusade stronger but no need to spam it. Just take your time and load up with food bonuses and scribing before fights that need specialized spells like Ward. First time rests are really at a premium is Ivory Labyrinth (other than Garrison before you get him).

 

[Stoned Ape]

A fully-buffed Woljif Eldritch Scoundrel 4/Eldritch Archer 7 is still pretty effective, even with only 1 trigger of Elemental Barrage per arrow (after the first one which gets acid dart on top), and only with Mythic Rank 3 (+ a smite evil from Seelah). When he gets a lightning bow, that'll be another 3d6 per arrow on top. Then it should just scale up from there!

 

[Nortar]

Subpar compared to what?

if character most of the time is is outperformed by the pet, at damaging and tanking both - he has no place at my frontline.

Damn zoophiles, I don't care how much you can jack up your pets. I refuse to play as a fucking travelling zoo.
No animals in my righteous crusade, except Greybor-bro, coz he's a beast.

 

[Desiderius]

EA good class even with all the abilities stuck on melee lol.

 

[Desiderius]

Note: Sos is bad vs Gargs because they have Smite Good. And they will target him on that basis so leave him home. I think he has best result in Leper Queen dialogue too so mainly kicks in around lvl nine.

Good home for Chain of Comradery. Burst of Glory is another nice rnd/lvl addition.

 

[Stoned Ape]

EA good class even with all the abilities stuck on melee lol.

Yeah, a 360+ damage volley at level 11 really isn't too shabby (I have to thank Seelah's Mark of Justice for a big chunk of that, though!)

 

[Desiderius]

Subpar compared to what?

if character most of the time is is outperformed by the pet, at damaging and tanking both - he has no place at my frontline.

Damn zoophiles, I don't care how much you can jack up your pets. I refuse to play as a fucking travelling zoo.
No animals in my righteous crusade, except Greybor-bro, coz he's a beast.

Pets don’t buff themselves. Sos does. And everyone else in combat and out. If that’s the criteria it’s garbage.

(Divine) Favor is first lvl so can keep it up for most fights. Power for the hard ones to leave slots for Edge/Ward. Get Improved Abundant.

 

[Daidre]

Pets don’t buff themselves. Sos does. And everyone else in combat and out. If that’s the criteria it’s garbage.

It is basic a criteria for a "competent" melee that I compare to when I call his melee output subpar.
My criteria for buff bots are different. As long as he provides spell buffs, domain short buffs, dispels and heals he may even shoot from crossbow with his negative DEX in the spare time and I would call him effective. But with some conditions: that he is not at risk of being hit, not crowding a melee range, not blocking narrow corridors, and not walking around like a cretin eating AoO because his pathfinding went retarded once again. Especially if he is an only person in the party who have clerical buffs and Mass Heals.

But I would never waste a Mythic Feats and Abilities on improving martial performance of the such character and I wont waste his spell-slots on self buffs. But if I have a free space for extra melee in my line up I will definitely get him Animal Domain. I usually run with 2 pets (3 is pure annoyance for me) so nothing wrong with wasting Mythic Ability slot on my buff bot to supply one.

Zerg leaves him in good position away from frontlines and you can use Touch during the Charge (like Seelah does Smite). Next round he casts Prayer, does another Touch/Luck on front liner, and cleans up AoOs. After that can slay or cast as needed.

And that is exactly what I call buff bot (or just support)- character who spends first 3 turns of most non-trash fights doing anything else but attacking with his weapon. And if it regularly takes more than 3 full turns to clean up non-boss fights in Pathfinders with the 6-man party, this means only one thing - your party sucks for the difficulty you are playing on.