Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[ArchAngel]

Is it a general rule that every class has an archetype that's better than the main class? Is there a class that's better to take without an archetape, from a mechanics point of view?

Paladin - most of the archetypes lose Mark of Justice and that's his best ability, Skald - this one is more questionable, but if you want your Skald primarily for singing Rage songs then vanilla is the best.
Most of the Slayer archetypes are lackluster and I went for default one often enough in rogue-like (Deliverer is dangerously close to being strictly better vanilla, but pays for it with feats and alignment restrictions).

Oracle. I looked at all archtypes and none came out as good. Maybe if you want specific mystery and one of the archetypes is built around it.

Seeker is very good (as strong as a base oracle and better for some builds). You can normally still create an optimal Oracle with 4 revelations as most mysteries only have 2-3 that are really useful. The 3 extra magic feats are incredibly handy for such a feat deprived class though, and getting Trickery as a class skill (with 1/2 level added) allows you to skip taking a rogue if you don't want to take one in the party.

Other dude already told me that. I don't see it. I made Life/Battle Oracle and I like more Revelations. I don't need Trickery bonus, background gives you that. More feats is nice but each revelation is worth multiple feats and give unique abilities. I can only see it for spellcasting focused build. But that again does not make base Oracle worth less which was the point of this whole conversation.
I am not saying Seeker is bad, just that it does not completely replace Oracle like it is with some other classes and their archetypes.

 

[Daidre]

Problem is that if you take Seeker you will need to delay lower priority but still extremely useful Revelations like Friends to Animal or War Sight till much later in the game. It's not worth it as you can always use rods for metamagic anyway.

Well, when the most useful action you can do in your round is Bolstered + Empowered + Maximized Bolt of Justice and you need 2 Feats and Rod for that, everything else is secondary.

Still there are many combos for 2 Mysteries, Healing is amazing for early Rogue-like, for example, and it only has one Revelation above the "barely decent" level - Channeling. Nature has technically three good Revelations - Pet, Nature Whispers for DEX>CHA and Friend to Animals, but Whispers are half-wasted on the Mounted char and Friend to Animal loses it value when you have a blanket immunities like Angel's defensive spells or Shield of Law.

And when I respec Daeran into Healing/Combat Seeker, Channel + Weapon Mastery (Ray) + War Sight was 100% strongest build for ray-caster-buffer from all my experiments over many many attempts.

 

[Yosharian]

There is absolutely no way you need all those revelation slots. Only point here is what Scythe said, it's true that delaying the revelations is often a bit pants. But overall no, you do not usually need all those revelations, there just aren't enough good ones.

Personally I hate using rods so there is that I guess

 

[Yosharian]

"Background bonus is enough for Trickery checks" please stop

 

[Stoned Ape]

Other dude already told me that. I don't see it. I made Life/Battle Oracle and I like more Revelations. I don't need Trickery bonus, background gives you that. More feats is nice but each revelation is worth multiple feats and give unique abilities. I can only see it for spellcasting focused build. But that again does not make base Oracle worth less which was the point of this whole conversation.
I am not saying Seeker is bad, just that it does not completely replace Oracle like it is with some other classes and their archetypes.

You only need one revelation from Life - Channel. The rest aren't that great. You only really need two from war, Weapon Mastery and Warsight. The other good one is Skill at Arms, but it's not vital (You can get a background with a good weapon or two if you want to save a revelation for something else).

The only time I'd go for a base Oracle over a Seeker is if I were going Battle/Nature because then I could choose from 6 revelations I think are really worth taking.

 

[Grunker]

There is absolutely no way you need all those revelation slots. Only point here is what Scythe said, it's true that delaying the revelations is often a bit pants. But overall no, you do not usually need all those revelations, there just aren't enough good ones.

Personally I hate using rods so there is that I guess

A fellow Rod hater I see

Allow me to fist you :brofist:

 

[LannTheStupid]

Is it a general rule that every class has an archetype that's better than the main class? Is there a class that's better to take without an archetape, from a mechanics point of view?

Kineticist.

my character's complete douche choices (the Evil choices in that dialogue are really bad, like High School Bully bad)

At this point in the game money is really tight, so this choice is good even for good parties. Successful shopping with Dyra improves the Shield Maze tour quite a bit.

 

[Haplo]

Is it a general rule that every class has an archetype that's better than the main class? Is there a class that's better to take without an archetape, from a mechanics point of view?

Kineticist.

Well, considered that too but...
For glass cannon nuking Elemental Engine is better.
And for playing up close and personal, Psychokineticist tends to be better.

 

[LannTheStupid]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1184370/view/3314110913457882912

Update 2.0.1e
Hello, crusaders!

A quick hot-fix 2.0.1e is available now:

• If an island boss previously didn't appear on their island in The Treasure of the Midnight Isles DLC, they will appear now;
• Island bosses in the Treasure of the Midnight Isles DLC no longer drop duplicates of quest items;
• Some islands in the Treasures of the Midnight Isles DLC, when playing in the integration mode in the main campaign, could be totally empty – fixed;
• Table and chairs have been returned to the heroes' party in the Defender's Heart;
• Fixed the issue with the invisible NPCs in the flashback cutscene after the interaction with the Wardstone;
• Arcanists couldn't memorize spells, when playing with a controller – fixed.

 

[Yosharian]

There is absolutely no way you need all those revelation slots. Only point here is what Scythe said, it's true that delaying the revelations is often a bit pants. But overall no, you do not usually need all those revelations, there just aren't enough good ones.

Personally I hate using rods so there is that I guess

A fellow Rod hater I see

Allow me to fist you :brofist:

I just find them really fiddly, and I'm constantly forgetting that they're on and then wasting them on the wrong spells. It's more about me being lazy than anything else really, but I wish the UI was different. I would prefer it if using a rod was a drop-up menu option, similar to converting cleric spells to cure/inflict works. That way I would only ever use them when I wanted to

 

[ArchAngel]

Is it a general rule that every class has an archetype that's better than the main class? Is there a class that's better to take without an archetape, from a mechanics point of view?

Kineticist.

Well, considered that too but...
For glass cannon nuking Elemental Engine is better.
And for playing up close and personal, Psychokineticist tends to be better.

How Dark Kineticist works now it is also better. Overcharge and Soul bonuses stack :D You get 3 from Overcharge and up to 6 from Soul.

 

[ArchAngel]

"Background bonus is enough for Trickery checks" please stop

I will stop once you are right about it.

 

[ArchAngel]

Other dude already told me that. I don't see it. I made Life/Battle Oracle and I like more Revelations. I don't need Trickery bonus, background gives you that. More feats is nice but each revelation is worth multiple feats and give unique abilities. I can only see it for spellcasting focused build. But that again does not make base Oracle worth less which was the point of this whole conversation.
I am not saying Seeker is bad, just that it does not completely replace Oracle like it is with some other classes and their archetypes.

You only need one revelation from Life - Channel. The rest aren't that great. You only really need two from war, Weapon Mastery and Warsight. The other good one is Skill at Arms, but it's not vital (You can get a background with a good weapon or two if you want to save a revelation for something else).

The only time I'd go for a base Oracle over a Seeker is if I were going Battle/Nature because then I could choose from 6 revelations I think are really worth taking.

I don't agree. There are 3 good healing revelations. One that removes limits from healing spells basically doubles effectiveness of lower level healing spells and makes it so you don't need to rest as much in DLC3. And ability to heal as swift action by using 2 slots is awesome as well when you really need it. And access to rods in DLC3 is really bad.
I had one Quicken rod in my 2nd run to lvl 16 characters.

 

[Grunker]

There is absolutely no way you need all those revelation slots. Only point here is what Scythe said, it's true that delaying the revelations is often a bit pants. But overall no, you do not usually need all those revelations, there just aren't enough good ones.

Personally I hate using rods so there is that I guess

A fellow Rod hater I see

Allow me to fist you :brofist:

I just find them really fiddly, and I'm constantly forgetting that they're on and then wasting them on the wrong spells. It's more about me being lazy than anything else really, but I wish the UI was different. I would prefer it if using a rod was a drop-up menu option, similar to converting cleric spells to cure/inflict works. That way I would only ever use them when I wanted to

They're a fucking chore, and they're the worst kind of chore: the one you'd be foolish to ignore

 

[Delterius]

Is it a general rule that every class has an archetype that's better than the main class? Is there a class that's better to take without an archetape, from a mechanics point of view?

Kineticist is arguably a trade off between elemental engine and the base class. You lose size bonuses and stronger gathers from super size. Instead you gain incentives to be a glass cannon at max burn. For this game I'd say the engine is necessary if you want to make physical blasts viable. But it's nothing like choosing between Arcanist and Brown Fur.

What I love are the archetypes that are just the main class but worse. Like Arcanist with worse spell book. Or witch with fewer hexes and a shitty cantrip and charism Kineticist without half the class features.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I don't agree. There are 3 good healing revelations. One that removes limits from healing spells basically doubles effectiveness of lower level healing spells and makes it so you don't need to rest as much in DLC3. And ability to heal as swift action by using 2 slots is awesome as well when you really need it. And access to rods in DLC3 is really bad.
I had one Quicken rod in my 2nd run to lvl 16 characters.

At low levels I generally just use potions/channel to heal in DLC3, while using my low-level oracle spells to buff so I take less damage.

I very rarely cast healing spells during combat and I wouldn't want to use up something like a revelation to swift cast them. I'd prefer to go with a feat I'd be using a more often so I don't get into the position where I need to swift cast healing.

Yeah, rods are rare until you get to the mage boss. He carries a few as far as I remember.

I mean, you're free to do your thing (obviously) but I doubt I'll be changing my mind either. I don't think the setup you suggest would suit the way I run an oracle.

 

[Desiderius]

"Background bonus is enough for Trickery checks" please stop

I will stop once you are right about it.

Background makes it a class skill and gives you +1 check. Seeker makes it a class skill *and* gives you scaling, stacking bonus by class level, which is what you should be looking for on each key skill. Can't afford to piss away a Background on a class with Simple prof. Main benefit of Seeker is still the extra Caster Feats tho.

And for playing up close and personal, Psychokineticist tends to be better.

KKnight also solid because Blade gets iteratives.

There is absolutely no way you need all those revelation slots.

This is what people say when they haven't tested half the Mysteries. Ancestors has several good Revelations. Plus with Second Mystery you can use all that you can get.

Likewise all the other archetypes have uses as well. Divine Herbalist is *awesome*. CHR to Lore (Nature) plus scales with level, Lay on Hands that cures progressively more severe Conditions, comes with Brew Potions. There's a pretty good cloak specifically for Purifier (AoE Daze + Damage vs Demons on Channel, Mythic Channeling doubles CHR-bonus) in AreeSu's Lab if they'd ever get Armor Training fixed. Strider gets a nice Teleport, and there's one more I'm forgetting.

Yet again there's a lot more depth here than meets the eye, though Angel Merge can make some of it moot if you go that way. If you just consider Merge something for newbs then that opens up other options.

 

[Desiderius]

All depends what you're trying to accomplish.

I was just curious as I don't have analysis on all the archetypes.

I'm playing a Gendarme on Core, and I'm pretty happy. He is a drunkard and a show off.

Gendarme's fine but the class already gets extra Feats. Hafling Cav would be outstanding if the abilities were working: Halfling gets bonus to both Mobility and DEX, Order gives scaling AC to Mount, second-level abilitiy gives AoE Saves rerolls, then you get an ability that boosts damage to make up for STR-malus. Dog has better maneuverability than Horse and Trip.

Standard Bearer Standard is stacking with other Morale bonuses and always on. Probably WAI. Late mount is not great but early Horse isn't very tanky anyway and can get you killed.

 

[ArchAngel]

"Background bonus is enough for Trickery checks" please stop

I will stop once you are right about it.

Background makes it a class skill and gives you +1 check. Seeker makes it a class skill *and* gives you scaling, stacking bonus by class level, which is what you should be looking for on each key skill. Can't afford to piss away a Background on a class with Simple prof. Main benefit of Seeker is still the extra Caster Feats tho.

I know, but you do not need that bonus. Between just ranks, lockpicks and bonuses from items and spells you will not fail. I never needed dedicated lock/trap dude in main campaign and I need it even less in DLC3. Only time it mattered was in Kingmaker Chapter 1.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah optiions in every dialogue amount to this:

1. I will help you (Good)
2. I will help you but pay me (Chaotic)
3. Holocaust (Evil)

 

[AwesomeButton]

Hafling Cav would be outstanding if the abilities were working: Halfling gets bonus to both Mobility and DEX, Order gives scaling AC to Mount, second-level abilitiy gives AoE Saves rerolls, then you get an ability that boosts damage to make up for STR-malus. Dog has better maneuverability than Horse and Trip.

Race choice is the place where I start drawing the line of "I want to RP my character", but thanks!

 

[Desiderius]

Background makes it a class skill and gives you +1 check. Seeker makes it a class skill *and* gives you scaling, stacking bonus by class level, which is what you should be looking for on each key skill. Can't afford to piss away a Background on a class with Simple prof. Main benefit of Seeker is still the extra Caster Feats tho.

I know, but you do not need that bonus. Between just ranks, lockpicks and bonuses from items and spells you will not fail. I never needed dedicated lock/trap dude in main campaign and I need it even less in DLC3. Only time it mattered was in Kingmaker Chapter 1.

Higher difficulty = higher checks, plus there are some pretty high ones in hidden areas. My main goal is eliminating all save-scumming (game's long enough already) so that means scaling abilities. Plus skill check EXP only w/Trickery on MC is nice bonus. Wolj/Aru also get the scaling bonus if you're using them.

 

[Haplo]

All depends what you're trying to accomplish.

I was just curious as I don't have analysis on all the archetypes.

I'm playing a Gendarme on Core, and I'm pretty happy. He is a drunkard and a show off.

Gendarme's fine but the class already gets extra Feats. Hafling Cav would be outstanding if the abilities were working: Halfling gets bonus to both Mobility and DEX, Order gives scaling AC to Mount, second-level abilitiy gives AoE Saves rerolls, then you get an ability that boosts damage to make up for STR-malus. Dog has better maneuverability than Horse and Trip.

Standard Bearer Standard is stacking with other Morale bonuses and always on. Probably WAI. Late mount is not great but early Horse isn't very tanky anyway and can get you killed.

Cavalier of the Paw gets no Order, sadly.
Changes it from one of the best archetypes to one of the worst.

 

[Desiderius]

I was just curious as I don't have analysis on all the archetypes.

I'm playing a Gendarme on Core, and I'm pretty happy. He is a drunkard and a show off.

Gendarme's fine but the class already gets extra Feats. Hafling Cav would be outstanding if the abilities were working: Halfling gets bonus to both Mobility and DEX, Order gives scaling AC to Mount, second-level abilitiy gives AoE Saves rerolls, then you get an ability that boosts damage to make up for STR-malus. Dog has better maneuverability than Horse and Trip.

Standard Bearer Standard is stacking with other Morale bonuses and always on. Probably WAI. Late mount is not great but early Horse isn't very tanky anyway and can get you killed.

Cavalier of the Paw gets no Order, sadly.
Changes it from one of the best archetypes to one of the worst.

It’s Order of the Paw. The Order is built into the class. Take another look at what you’re getting.

 

[Haplo]

And for playing up close and personal, Psychokineticist tends to be better.

KKnight also solid because Blade gets iteratives.

KK is missing like half its class features. The archetypes kinda needs Dark Codex mod to be playable.