Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

+ 4 from a Teamwork Feat that most people won't take because things like Outflank and Seize the Moment are better options 95% of the time

 

[Rhobar121]

If you've got 16 Fort on Regill you've got *much* bigger problems than just Fort saves.

You did, I hope, notice that he's completely unbuffed and without proper gear because I just needed to grab a quick screenshot to prove RR doesn't work here and did not actually prepare for that fight (or any other fight, for that matter)?

The point is that I'm not stacking Fort Saves (that character had 60 Reflex), I'm just paying minimal attention to keeping my saves up in general.

> +16 from Class
> + 7 from CON
> + 6 from a buff that works only on Good Characters (of which I have 0 in my Party)
> + 4 from a Teamwork Feat that most people won't take because things like Outflank and Seize the Moment are better options 95% of the time

I mean just this stuff I listed won't be available to a solid majority of Characters because it requires a combination of features that only a certain limited subset of Characters can have access to (Good-aligned, likely almost exclusively levels in Martial Classes, decently high CON and CHA, not Feat-starved). Other types of Characters are pretty much fucked by default in this particular fight and have no means of counter-play, unlike in p. much any other fight I can think of.

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative. Taking both would make some sense on azata where you can share you teamwork feat for every allies in range.

 

[Desiderius]

> +16 from Class
> + 7 from CON
> + 6 from a buff that works only on Good Characters (of which I have 0 in my Party)
> + 4 from a Teamwork Feat that most people won't take because things like Outflank and Seize the Moment are better options 95% of the time

Yeah and I said you should be in the mid-30s. 50 minus the 6 from Bestow is 44. Take away 3 from CON (no reason not to have at least 12 base CON and keep it buffed by that time) and you're at 41. Take Shake eventually, it's a helluva lot better than blowing two Feats per character on Seize on top of Outflank. Now you're in the 31-41 range depending on class. If your class sux at FORT why wouldn't you use an item or ability to shore that up?

Git gud.

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative. Taking both would make some sense on azata where you can share you teamwork feat for every allies in range.

Seize works with Ranged (it says Threaten not Flank) so isn't a complete waste, but what we have here is yet another example of the tunnel vision that only stacks offense abilities because defensive ability "suck" which means you can hit reload when you get a bad roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.

 

[Rhobar121]

> +16 from Class
> + 7 from CON
> + 6 from a buff that works only on Good Characters (of which I have 0 in my Party)
> + 4 from a Teamwork Feat that most people won't take because things like Outflank and Seize the Moment are better options 95% of the time

Yeah and I said you should be in the mid-30s. 50 minus the 6 from Bestow is 44. Take away 3 CON (no reason not to have at least 12 base CON and keep it buffed by that time) and you're at 41. Take Shake eventually, it's a helluva lot better than blowing two Feats per character on Seize on top of Outflank. Now you're in the 31-41 range depending on class. If your class sux at CON why wouldn't you use an item or ability to shore that up?

Git gud.

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative. Taking both would make some sense on azata where you can share you teamwork feat for every allies in range.

Seize works with Ranged (it says Threaten not Flank) so isn't a complete waste, but what we have here is yet another example of the tunnel vision that only stacks offense abilities because defensive ability "suck" which means you can hit reload when you get a bad roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

 

[Desiderius]

roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

Probably Improved Snap in fact since range on basic Snap is pretty small. Fighter Wend with Legendary and Improved Snap (along with Fighter's Tactics and Seize) can get pretty good coverage if you send her into melee with Point Blank Master.

 

[Lambach]

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative.

They're not, which is why I p. much always stick with Outflank only, though Seize works with ranged attacks too, so it's not a terrible choice either.

Certainly better than Shake it Off, in any case. Anything that helps you delete/disable enemies before they even have a chance to hit back is better than the vast majority of defensive options in general (things like Last Stand excluded), except apparently in that one stupidly designed fight.

 

[The_Mask]

2. He's also bringing Woljif who has haste, so I ask again, why would he consider Nenio in the first place?

Apparently, Scroll Savants can be quite powerful and versatile if you know how to use them correctly. The combo of their Class Abilities and some gear in the game can give them an edge when casting from Scrolls beyond what most other Spellcasters can do (Mythic stuff excluded) when casting from their regular Spellbooks.

At least that's what I've heard other people say. I can't speak to it myself, because I can't fathom the idea of playing a character so heavily dependent on consumables to shine.

You can craft many of the consumables the class uses. Nenio is pretty good, you just have to let go of the box you're in.






OMG, I'm starting to sound like Desiderius... ><

 

[Rhobar121]

roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

Probably Improved Snap in fact since range on basic Snap is pretty small. Fighter Wend with Legendary and Improved Snap (along with Fighter's Tactics and Seize) can get pretty good coverage if you send her into melee with Point Blank Master.

The problem is that archery requires quite a lot of feats and there is rarely room for additional feats (3 feats for greater snapshot), especially if you choose shatter defenses.
I don't know if anyone but a fighter or a slayer could afford it.

 

[Lambach]

Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.

Lmao @ thinking this was their deliberate intention.

If my extremely offense-oriented Party has no problem mowing down 99.999% of encounters and can navigate around their generally poor defensive capabilities in all encounters except this one which more than 90% of players will never even see, that's just a design fuck-up, not some clever punishment for playing the game "wrong", lulz.

 

[Rhobar121]

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative.

They're not, which is why I p. much always stick with Outflank only, though Seize works with ranged attacks too, so it's not a terrible choice either.

Certainly better than Shake it Off, in any case. Anything that helps you delete/disable enemies before they even have a chance to hit back is better than the vast majority of defensive options in general (things like Last Stand excluded), except apparently in that one stupidly designed fight.

I don't believe I will say this, but in this case I will agree with Desiderius. It is really rare for any class to require all feats to be strong.
Even if the +4 all saves are worth much more than the +2 bonus weapon damage.
The character who stands in CC does not do damage.
All the most annoying enemies in this game are those who use aoe CC: carnivous crystal, vrock, nalfeshnee or vavakia (premiere version)

 

[Lambach]

The character who stands in CC does not do damage.

From what I've seen, the general consensus (specially for higher Difficulties) is that it's simply more efficient to focus on making sure the enemy can't CC you to begin with, and I tend to agree. I'd much rather have Regill destroy that Coloxus Defiler with Pounce + Mythic Charge before it even gets a chance to act than face-tank its Mind Fog + Discord/Mass Hold and rely on Saves.

That's not to say you should completely neglect your defenses, mind you, but I'd almost never go for more defense if it comes at the expense of offense (e.g. I'd go for Outflank over Shake it Off on almost any character if I didn't have enough Feats for both).

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Going max offense on MC is the correct strategy 100% of the time in every RPG ever made, so not sure what's the fuss about.

 

[Desiderius]

roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

Probably Improved Snap in fact since range on basic Snap is pretty small. Fighter Wend with Legendary and Improved Snap (along with Fighter's Tactics and Seize) can get pretty good coverage if you send her into melee with Point Blank Master.

The problem is that archery requires quite a lot of feats and there is rarely room for additional feats (3 feats for greater snapshot), especially if you choose shatter defenses.
I don't know if anyone but a fighter or a slayer could afford it.

Lol, that’s why I love Fighter. Feats for days. Works great on Wend.

Lann ZA gets Snap (and PBM) for free but unfortunately has to take the useless (for him) Rapid to unlock Improved Snap. Greater just adds (a lot of) damage. He starts with Combat Reflexes so Seize is less pricey but have to have a way to get it on other characters. Wend’s Fighter’s Tactics treats whole team as having it and doesn’t even cost a Feat because Fighter gets it thru Advanced Weapon Training.

 

[Rhobar121]

The character who stands in CC does not do damage.

From what I've seen, the general consensus (specially for higher Difficulties) is that it's simply more efficient to focus on making sure the enemy can't CC you to begin with, and I tend to agree. I'd much rather have Regill destroy that Coloxus Defiler with Pounce + Mythic Charge before it even gets a chance to act than face-tank its Mind Fog + Discord/Mass Hold and rely on Saves.

That's not to say you should completely neglect your defenses, mind you, but I'd almost never go for more defense if it comes at the expense of offense (e.g. I'd go for Outflank over Shake it Off on almost any character if I didn't have enough Feats for both).

This only works if you manage to win an initiative, otherwise you end up in CC.
As I wrote, +2 to damage is literally nothing, especially at a later stage of the game.

 

[Rhobar121]

roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

Probably Improved Snap in fact since range on basic Snap is pretty small. Fighter Wend with Legendary and Improved Snap (along with Fighter's Tactics and Seize) can get pretty good coverage if you send her into melee with Point Blank Master.

The problem is that archery requires quite a lot of feats and there is rarely room for additional feats (3 feats for greater snapshot), especially if you choose shatter defenses.
I don't know if anyone but a fighter or a slayer could afford it.

Lol, that’s why I love Fighter. Feats for days. Works great on Wend.

Lann ZA gets Snap (and PBM) for free but unfortunately has to take the useless (for him) Rapid to unlock Improved Snap. Greater just adds (a lot of) damage. He starts with Combat Reflexes so Seize is less pricey but have to have a way to get it on other characters. Wend’s Fighter’s Tactics treats whole team as having it and doesn’t even cost a Feat because Fighter gets it thru Advanced Weapon Training.

That's why I like azata, you can transfer all teamwork feat not only to the party but also to all pets or even summons.
Of course, this only works if you are not playing caster because you have other important choices.

 

[Desiderius]

The character who stands in CC does not do damage.

From what I've seen, the general consensus (specially for higher Difficulties) is that it's simply more efficient to focus on making sure the enemy can't CC you to begin with, and I tend to agree. I'd much rather have Regill destroy that Coloxus Defiler with Pounce + Mythic Charge before it even gets a chance to act than face-tank its Mind Fog + Discord/Mass Hold and rely on Saves.

That's not to say you should completely neglect your defenses, mind you, but I'd almost never go for more defense if it comes at the expense of offense (e.g. I'd go for Outflank over Shake it Off on almost any character if I didn't have enough Feats for both).

By the time you’re hitting MR9 pretty much every character will. Outflank doesn’t unlock until BAB4 so I’ve gotten Shake out of the way early before but of course Outflank is better. Stacking Seize on top isn’t.

Zerging is great (in RTwP) but sometimes you don’t get there and sometimes they cutscene your ass. Deal. Plenty of tools to do so without blowing up your build.

 

[Desiderius]

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative.

They're not, which is why I p. much always stick with Outflank only, though Seize works with ranged attacks too, so it's not a terrible choice either.

Certainly better than Shake it Off, in any case. Anything that helps you delete/disable enemies before they even have a chance to hit back is better than the vast majority of defensive options in general (things like Last Stand excluded), except apparently in that one stupidly designed fight.

I don't believe I will say this, but in this case I will agree with Desiderius. It is really rare for any class to require all feats to be strong.
Even if the +4 all saves are worth much more than the +2 bonus weapon damage.
The character who stands in CC does not do damage.
All the most annoying enemies in this game are those who use aoe CC: carnivous crystal, vrock, nalfeshnee or vavakia (premiere version)

Vavakia Van uses Fearsome Dazzling which is a skill check for it, not a save for you. Fear Immunity should be able to stop it, which is probably why one shows up at the end of Seelah’s Quest since she can grant that Immunity to team.

 

[Daidre]

If my extremely offense-oriented Party has no problem mowing down 99.999% of encounters and can navigate around their generally poor defensive capabilities in all encounters except this one which more than 90% of players will never even see, that's just a design fuck-up, not some clever punishment for playing the game "wrong", lulz.

Keep in mind that you are actually fighting easier version of Nocti. With full AI on she also follows up with Wail of Banshee that hits for 350+ HP on Hard (x2 on Unfair) and requires another 45+ Fort saves or Last Stand to keep khm... standing.
Still, I agree that this particular fight is something that you need to know about and prepare options beforehand, if you intend to fight her (food, Greater Heroism, Athletic trick in trickster case and etc). Btw, you can choose not to fight her on both paths where she is available. Then only necessary feat would be to survive couple of rounds in her presence.

Also, there are items in the Chapter 5 like two +20 all saves masks that could make whole thing easier if do not rush into event right after Chapter 5 started.

 

[Lambach]

Keep in mind that you are actually fighting easier version of Nocti. With full AI on she also follows up with Wail of Banshee that hits for 350+ HP on Hard (x2 on Unfair) and requires another 45+ Fort saves or Last Stand to keep khm... standing.
Still, I agree that this particular fight is something that you need to know about and prepare options beforehand, if you intend to fight her (food, Greater Heroism, Athletic trick in trickster case and etc).
Also, there are items in the Chapter 5 like two +20 all saves masks that could make whole thing easier if do not rush into event right after Chapter 5 started.

In other words, "Stack Fort or get fucked, nothing else works". That feels very out of place in a game that otherwise allows you to handle the same problems in various different ways.

Btw, you can choose not to fight her on both paths where she is available. Then only necessary feat would be to survive couple of rounds in her presence.

That's what I ended up doing because I couldn't be arsed to fight her. Normally, I would not back down from a challenge, but this didn't even feel like a challenge, just a chore. Zero tactics or strategy involved beyond "Stack more Fort".

 

[The_Mask]

I think someone else was mentioning a potential strat earlier where you dispel buffs and go magic immune. That might be a solution.

 

[Lambach]

Ye, Magic Nullification might work, but spending a Mythic Ability pick just to win one optional fight seems like a terrible ROI. Unless you're willing to re-spec on a whim, I guess.

 

[Yosharian]

It's almost like Noct is an actual goddess or something

 

[Lambach]

Not yet she isn't. Gods don't have stats.

 

[Yosharian]

Well Demon Lord then, whatever. She's basically a demi-god. I don't see the problem.

 

[Lambach]

The problem is I trashed two other Demon Lords at the same time with a Party that was weaker than my current one in like 4-5 Rounds. Probably because neither of them had a bullshit ability that completely prevents you from playing the game unless you play it in one specific way.