Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

The problem is I trashed two other Demon Lords at the same time with a Party that was weaker than my current one in like 4-5 Rounds. Probably because neither of them had a bullshit ability that completely prevents you from playing the game unless you play it in one specific way.

That's fair I guess, I just like the fact that she's a challenge but I do appreciate what you're saying

 

[Daidre]

Random question, you can equip pet items like Sturdy Snoot on companions too right? I forgot and I'm away from my PC

Sturdy Snoot could be equipped by people but kneepads are no-no.

 

[Yosharian]

Random question, you can equip pet items like Sturdy Snoot on companions too right? I forgot and I'm away from my PC

Sturdy Snoot could be equipped by people but kneepads are no-no.

Got it thanks

 

[Haplo]

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative.

They're not, which is why I p. much always stick with Outflank only, though Seize works with ranged attacks too, so it's not a terrible choice either.

Certainly better than Shake it Off, in any case. Anything that helps you delete/disable enemies before they even have a chance to hit back is better than the vast majority of defensive options in general (things like Last Stand excluded), except apparently in that one stupidly designed fight.

I don't believe I will say this, but in this case I will agree with Desiderius. It is really rare for any class to require all feats to be strong.
Even if the +4 all saves are worth much more than the +2 bonus weapon damage.
The character who stands in CC does not do damage.
All the most annoying enemies in this game are those who use aoe CC: carnivous crystal, vrock, nalfeshnee or vavakia (premiere version)

Vavakia Van uses Fearsome Dazzling which is a skill check for it, not a save for you. Fear Immunity should be able to stop it, which is probably why one shows up at the end of Seelah’s Quest since she can grant that Immunity to team.

Seelah already has an aura spell for that at spell level 2...

 

[Yosharian]

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative.

They're not, which is why I p. much always stick with Outflank only, though Seize works with ranged attacks too, so it's not a terrible choice either.

Certainly better than Shake it Off, in any case. Anything that helps you delete/disable enemies before they even have a chance to hit back is better than the vast majority of defensive options in general (things like Last Stand excluded), except apparently in that one stupidly designed fight.

I don't believe I will say this, but in this case I will agree with Desiderius. It is really rare for any class to require all feats to be strong.
Even if the +4 all saves are worth much more than the +2 bonus weapon damage.
The character who stands in CC does not do damage.
All the most annoying enemies in this game are those who use aoe CC: carnivous crystal, vrock, nalfeshnee or vavakia (premiere version)

Vavakia Van uses Fearsome Dazzling which is a skill check for it, not a save for you. Fear Immunity should be able to stop it, which is probably why one shows up at the end of Seelah’s Quest since she can grant that Immunity to team.

Seelah already has an aura spell for that at spell level 2...

There are so many things that give fear immunity to be fair

 

[Desiderius]

Vavakia Van uses Fearsome Dazzling which is a skill check for it, not a save for you. Fear Immunity should be able to stop it, which is probably why one shows up at the end of Seelah’s Quest since she can grant that Immunity to team.

Seelah already has an aura spell for that at spell level 2...

Yes, that’s what I’m referring to. AoE Fear Immunity isn't all that common of an ability.

The problem is I trashed two other Demon Lords at the same time with a Party that was weaker than my current one in like 4-5 Rounds. Probably because neither of them had a bullshit ability that completely prevents you from playing the game unless you play it in one specific way.

… not a one-dimensional game… the “one specific way” is not just completely ignoring saves then reloading on a bad roll but actually using items the game gives you to boost them.

She’s a freaking Demon Lord, and specifically one extraordinarily talented at exploiting human weakness. Like savescumming.

You’d have a point if the save were 62 or something. 47? C’mon man.

 

[Desiderius]

Keep in mind that you are actually fighting easier version of Nocti. With full AI on she also follows up with Wail of Banshee that hits for 350+ HP on Hard (x2 on Unfair) and requires another 45+ Fort saves or Last Stand to keep khm... standing.
Still, I agree that this particular fight is something that you need to know about and prepare options beforehand, if you intend to fight her (food, Greater Heroism, Athletic trick in trickster case and etc).
Also, there are items in the Chapter 5 like two +20 all saves masks that could make whole thing easier if do not rush into event right after Chapter 5 started.

In other words, "Stack Fort or get fucked, nothing else works". That feels very out of place in a game that otherwise allows you to handle the same problems in various different ways.

Btw, you can choose not to fight her on both paths where she is available. Then only necessary feat would be to survive couple of rounds in her presence.

That's what I ended up doing because I couldn't be arsed to fight her. Normally, I would not back down from a challenge, but this didn't even feel like a challenge, just a chore. Zero tactics or strategy involved beyond "Stack more Fort".

You're lying. It's unclear whether to us or yourself. You don't have to stack Fort specifically. You do have to either keep your saves in general at a level that lets you consistently win other fights then miss half your saves on this one then try to win it through some Fascinate (which is a lot weaker effect than paralyze or confuse) or prepare specifically for this one, which you know is something that shouldn't be out of line for an optional C & C.

The one-weird-trickism (and not just yours, which is the problem - this is how challenging content gets unduly nerfed) that leads you to neglect saves altogether is what's tripping you up here and something this fight is designed to exploit. "Most abilities/items suck" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not in this ruleset/game they don't unless enough people neglect them and get it nerfed far enough in that direction.

 

[Lambach]

the “one specific way” is not just completely ignoring saves then reloading on a bad roll but actually using items the game gives you to boost them.

You can either max out your offensive capabilities and very rarely have to rely on Saves to begin with (and have a couple of "OH SHIT!" buttons when that strategy fails occasionally) or you can be a boring fag and not play like that.

You chose to be a boring fag, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't like the fact that Nocticula is the only encounter in the game that forces you into being a boring fag to win, with no other options.

She’s a freaking Demon Lord, and specifically one extraordinarily talented at exploiting human weakness.

Yes, it makes perfect sense that a Demon Lord whose main strength is not raw power or strength, but rather cunning, manipulation and guile, would be the Demon Lord that is by far the strongest one in an open combat scenario.

You're lying. It's unclear whether to us or yourself.

Oh shut the fuck up, retard. The fight is garbage design. Period. In a game as varied and teeming with different options as WotR, having one obstacle that allows only one solution is retarded. Go fuck yourself if you think that's acceptable design, or some "clever" punishment from Owlcat, and not just a blatant oversight by them.

which is a lot weaker effect than paralyze or confuse) or prepare specifically for this one

No it's not, retard, because Rupture Restraints protects you from Paralyze and Confuse. A level 1 Spell, Unbreakable Heart, protects you from Confuse by suppressing it. Or you can cast Shield of Law to make your party p. much immune to it 95% of the time. There are I-don't-even-know-how-many things that make you immune to Paralysis. This is called having options, retard.

Nothing protects you from Nocticula's Fascinate. It bypasses everything, as per description. There is no counter-play. Boost this one specific number to win just this one specific fight, or get fucked. This is called not having options, retard.

and not just yours, which is the problem - this is how challenging content gets unduly nerfed

Nocticula is not a challenge, she is literally a Stat-check. You have enough of one specific Stat - you win. You don't - you lose. That's it.

And she is completely unique in that regard, in the entire game. That's how I know her design was actually just a total fuck-up that was left unfixed, and not some "clever" challenge from Owlcat like you'd like to believe. Pull their dicks out of your mouth already.

 

[Yosharian]

Skill Focus (Mythic) You mastery with this skill is unmatched, even in difficult situations. You can always take 10 on checks with your choice of skill for Skill Focus if 10 on a roll is enough for a successful skill check.

Wtf does this even do

 

[Lambach]

Skill Focus (Mythic) You mastery with this skill is unmatched, even in difficult situations. You can always take 10 on checks with your choice of skill for Skill Focus if 10 on a roll is enough for a successful skill check.

Wtf does this even do

You have 26 Points in a certain Skill. There's a Skill Check (in that Skill) that has a DC of 35. Instead of having to roll a d20 to beat that Check, you can automatically take a roll of 10, because 26 + 10 >= 35. So that thing guarantees you a success on the Skill Check in such a scenario, whereas otherwise you'd have a 40% chance to fail.

 

[Yosharian]

Skill Focus (Mythic) You mastery with this skill is unmatched, even in difficult situations. You can always take 10 on checks with your choice of skill for Skill Focus if 10 on a roll is enough for a successful skill check.

Wtf does this even do

You have 26 Points in a certain Skill. There's a Skill Check (in that Skill) that has a DC of 35. Instead of having to roll a d20 to beat that Check, you can automatically take a roll of 10, because 26 + 10 >= 35. So that thing guarantees you a success on the Skill Check in such a scenario, whereas otherwise you'd have a 40% chance to fail.

So it's a toggle that just gives you 10 instead of a d20?

Or is it just 'never roll less than 10'?

 

[Yosharian]

To be clear I know what Take 10 means in PnP I'm just asking what the implementation is in Wrath

 

[Lambach]

A Bard gets a similar ability that applies to all Lore/Knowledge Checks. That one is a toggle and if it's on, you always roll 10 (even if it means certain failure). Turning it off lets you roll normally.

That Mythic Feat, based on description, sounds like it's always active and will automatically either roll a 10 or let you roll normally depending on the gap between your Skill and the DC. But I never picked it, so I'm not 100% sure if it's a toggle or not.

 

[gurugeorge]

roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

Probably Improved Snap in fact since range on basic Snap is pretty small. Fighter Wend with Legendary and Improved Snap (along with Fighter's Tactics and Seize) can get pretty good coverage if you send her into melee with Point Blank Master.

The problem is that archery requires quite a lot of feats and there is rarely room for additional feats (3 feats for greater snapshot), especially if you choose shatter defenses.
I don't know if anyone but a fighter or a slayer could afford it.

Lol, that’s why I love Fighter. Feats for days. Works great on Wend.

Lann ZA gets Snap (and PBM) for free but unfortunately has to take the useless (for him) Rapid to unlock Improved Snap. Greater just adds (a lot of) damage. He starts with Combat Reflexes so Seize is less pricey but have to have a way to get it on other characters. Wend’s Fighter’s Tactics treats whole team as having it and doesn’t even cost a Feat because Fighter gets it thru Advanced Weapon Training.

That's why I like azata, you can transfer all teamwork feat not only to the party but also to all pets or even summons.
Of course, this only works if you are not playing caster because you have other important choices.

I was thinking about that. It might seem like a good idea to be able to forego Outflank and/or Shake It Off on the individual characters, giving them the opportunity to pick up more chunky damage feats, if you can be, say, a buffer-type Azata MC who doesn't need Zippy Magic, but I think the first superpower pick, and then the next opportunity to pick another teamwork feat, they both come too late to really substitute satisfactorily for having both those key feats serially on your frontliners from the early levels. It's a possible late team respec route though, might be worth exploring.

******
(Musing)

I'm getting leery of big respecs though. Early on when I was exploring the system and options, I was gung-ho about respeccing at the drop of a hat just to try things out, but these days I'm more interested in finishing the damn game with whatever

In fact, much as I love the mods for the game, I've been tripped up a few times by updates screwing with abandonware mods making me lose hours of playtime (one of them getting quite close to the end of the game), that next time I get a hankering for the game (which I think I've got one more run in me in the not too distant future) I'm thinking of stripping the mods back entirely to just QOL, starting a new character with personality and features I like, and just getting the blinkers on and finishing the !"£$% game. I have a good, clean pre-Drezen mythic choice game (with all options open) that I've been using for testing things out, but even that I'm sick of.

There's a real virtue in living with and inhabiting a character from lvl 1, it makes the game a more holistic experience (says he, rediscovering the wheel )

 

[Rhobar121]

Seize the moment and Outflank shouldn't be cumulative.

They're not, which is why I p. much always stick with Outflank only, though Seize works with ranged attacks too, so it's not a terrible choice either.

Certainly better than Shake it Off, in any case. Anything that helps you delete/disable enemies before they even have a chance to hit back is better than the vast majority of defensive options in general (things like Last Stand excluded), except apparently in that one stupidly designed fight.

I don't believe I will say this, but in this case I will agree with Desiderius. It is really rare for any class to require all feats to be strong.
Even if the +4 all saves are worth much more than the +2 bonus weapon damage.
The character who stands in CC does not do damage.
All the most annoying enemies in this game are those who use aoe CC: carnivous crystal, vrock, nalfeshnee or vavakia (premiere version)

Vavakia Van uses Fearsome Dazzling which is a skill check for it, not a save for you. Fear Immunity should be able to stop it, which is probably why one shows up at the end of Seelah’s Quest since she can grant that Immunity to team.

Have you already forgotten that at the premiere (and a few months later) it was not even classified as fear so the aura didn't work?

 

[Yosharian]

Hmm alright, will test it tonight

 

[Rhobar121]

roll. Until you can't. Good for Owlcat for punishing that bullshit.I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to not threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

I can be wrong, but don't you need a snap shot to threaten the enemy with a ranged weapon?

Probably Improved Snap in fact since range on basic Snap is pretty small. Fighter Wend with Legendary and Improved Snap (along with Fighter's Tactics and Seize) can get pretty good coverage if you send her into melee with Point Blank Master.

The problem is that archery requires quite a lot of feats and there is rarely room for additional feats (3 feats for greater snapshot), especially if you choose shatter defenses.
I don't know if anyone but a fighter or a slayer could afford it.

Lol, that’s why I love Fighter. Feats for days. Works great on Wend.

Lann ZA gets Snap (and PBM) for free but unfortunately has to take the useless (for him) Rapid to unlock Improved Snap. Greater just adds (a lot of) damage. He starts with Combat Reflexes so Seize is less pricey but have to have a way to get it on other characters. Wend’s Fighter’s Tactics treats whole team as having it and doesn’t even cost a Feat because Fighter gets it thru Advanced Weapon Training.

That's why I like azata, you can transfer all teamwork feat not only to the party but also to all pets or even summons.
Of course, this only works if you are not playing caster because you have other important choices.

I was thinking about that. It might seem like a good idea to be able to forego Outflank and/or Shake It Off on the individual characters, giving them the opportunity to pick up more chunky damage feats, if you can be, say, a buffer-type Azata MC who doesn't need Zippy Magic, but I think the first superpower pick, and then the next opportunity to pick another teamwork feat, they both come too late to really substitute satisfactorily for having both those key feats serially on your frontliners from the early levels. It's a possible late team respec route though, might be worth exploring.

******
(Musing)

I'm getting leery of big respecs though. Early on when I was exploring the system and options, I was gung-ho about respeccing at the drop of a hat just to try things out, but these days I'm more interested in finishing the damn game with whatever

In fact, much as I love the mods for the game, I've been tripped up a few times by updates screwing with abandonware mods making me lose hours of playtime (one of them getting quite close to the end of the game), that next time I get a hankering for the game (which I think I've got one more run in me in the not too distant future) I'm thinking of stripping the mods back entirely to just QOL, starting a new character with personality and features I like, and just getting the blinkers on and finishing the !"£$% game. I have a good, clean pre-Drezen mythic choice game (with all options open) that I've been using for testing things out, but even that I'm sick of.

There's a real virtue in living with and inhabiting a character from lvl 1, it makes the game a more holistic experience (says he, rediscovering the wheel )

Just to be clear, choosing a superpower causes all your team feats to be shared, not just those you get as a superpower.
This means that if, for example, you choose a shake it of on level 5, when you unlock the superpower, everyone will automatically get it.

 

[Desiderius]

Skill Focus (Mythic) You mastery with this skill is unmatched, even in difficult situations. You can always take 10 on checks with your choice of skill for Skill Focus if 10 on a roll is enough for a successful skill check.

Wtf does this even do

You have 26 Points in a certain Skill. There's a Skill Check (in that Skill) that has a DC of 35. Instead of having to roll a d20 to beat that Check, you can automatically take a roll of 10, because 26 + 10 >= 35. So that thing guarantees you a success on the Skill Check in such a scenario, whereas otherwise you'd have a 40% chance to fail.

So it's a toggle that just gives you 10 instead of a d20?

Or is it just 'never roll less than 10'?

It takes 10. Touch of Law takes 11.

 

[Desiderius]

the “one specific way” is not just completely ignoring saves then reloading on a bad roll but actually using items the game gives you to boost them.

You can either max out your offensive capabilities and very rarely have to rely on Saves to begin with (and have a couple of "OH SHIT!" buttons when that strategy fails occasionally) or you can be a boring fag and not play like that.

You chose to be a boring fag, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't like the fact that Nocticula is the only encounter in the game that forces you into being a boring fag to win, with no other options.

She’s a freaking Demon Lord, and specifically one extraordinarily talented at exploiting human weakness.

Yes, it makes perfect sense that a Demon Lord whose main strength is not raw power or strength, but rather cunning, manipulation and guile, would be the Demon Lord that is by far the strongest one in an open combat scenario.

You're lying. It's unclear whether to us or yourself.

Oh shut the fuck up, retard. The fight is garbage design. Period. In a game as varied and teeming with different options as WotR, having one obstacle that allows only one solution is retarded. Go fuck yourself if you think that's acceptable design, or some "clever" punishment from Owlcat, and not just a blatant oversight by them.

which is a lot weaker effect than paralyze or confuse) or prepare specifically for this one

No it's not, retard, because Rupture Restraints protects you from Paralyze and Confuse. A level 1 Spell, Unbreakable Heart, protects you from Confuse by suppressing it. Or you can cast Shield of Law to make your party p. much immune to it 95% of the time. There are I-don't-even-know-how-many things that make you immune to Paralysis. This is called having options, retard.

Nothing protects you from Nocticula's Fascinate. It bypasses everything, as per description. There is no counter-play. Boost this one specific number to win just this one specific fight, or get fucked. This is called not having options, retard.

and not just yours, which is the problem - this is how challenging content gets unduly nerfed

Nocticula is not a challenge, she is literally a Stat-check. You have enough of one specific Stat - you win. You don't - you lose. That's it.

And she is completely unique in that regard, in the entire game. That's how I know her design was actually just a total fuck-up that was left unfixed, and not some "clever" challenge from Owlcat like you'd like to believe. Pull their dicks out of your mouth already.

Lol. Cope.

Git gud.

The appropriate DC for that check is at least 15 higher than the highest FORT of any non-boss in Alyusshinira, since she owns that place. And that's about where it's at. Good design.

There is no counter-play

Lol. How about wearing a Cloak of Resistance and having Heroism, Greater up lol. Nothing in that shot I posted fits what you're saying I'm doing (or delusionally are claiming needs to be done) other than Shake it Off, and that's just +4. Take off the Bestow Grace and it's still at 40, and Sos or Ember could have Bestow themselves.

I bring up Paralyze or Confuse because if she were applying those instead of Fascinate they would screw you harder. Fascinate isn't even helpless.

If you'd just use the items and abilities you already have you could handle it fine. Instead you cry for the nerf.

Sad

 

[Desiderius]

The Fascinating thing about the Noct ability is that it's a FORT check Fascinate, which when you think about it is a pretty accurate representation of the nature of feminine seduction.

Plenty of willful geniuses with a pron addiction. Main contributor to the OED ended up chopping his own dick off since he couldn't resist banging cheap whores 24/7.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5932728/

 

[Desiderius]

Have you already forgotten that at the premiere (and a few months later) it was not even classified as fear so the aura didn't work?

Nope. Had to deal with people losing all their shit on the forums due to that.

Works now which is all that matters. Been trying to keep up with the present state of the game.

 

[Yosharian]

Found another bug/oversight. The Cavalier abilities Challenge and Knight's Challenge say that they add damage equal to the Cavalier's level. This would normally imply the Cavalier's class level. But it's actually character level. Very nice for multiclassing.

 

[Yosharian]

Initial calculations done regarding the Aeon build's potential AB. This path is fucking nuts. This is more AB than my Legend build. There is tons of Swift Action abilities/spells so it's more of a theoretical number than something that'll often get used. Most likely Knight's Challenge and boom any boss is done.

Attack Bonus Breakdown:

• +20: Base Attack Bonus
• +22: Strength bonus
• +2: Inherent (Demongraft)
• +4: Insight (The Bound of Possibility)
• +2: Circumstance (Half of the Pair)
• +5: Enhancement (Weapon enhancement)
• +4: Polymorph Enhancement (Shroud of the Eternal Hunter)
• +4: Morale (Greater Heroism)
• +6: Competence (Lethal Stance, allied Skald)
• +3: Luck (Favor of the Gods, lategame Crusade bonus)
• +6: Untyped (Enforcing Gaze - Attack)
• +1: Untyped (Weapon Focus feat)
• +1: Untyped (Haste spell)
• +1: Untyped (Haste effect from Skald 20, stacks with Haste)
• +3: Untyped (Inspired Rage, allied Skald)
• +2: Untyped (Call to Violence, worn by Justiciar)
  • Non-Conditional Attack Bonus: 86
• Conditional:
• +4: Charge bonus (Cavalier's Charge)
• +4: Morale (Banner, only when charging, stacks with Heroism)
• +4: Untyped (Favored Enemy - Demons of Slaughter (other types only +2))
• +4: Untyped (Outflank feat + Flanking bonus)
• Activated:
• +13: Untyped (Smite Evil)
• +13: Untyped (Smite Chaos)
• +13: Untyped (Knight's Challenge)
• +3: Luck (Divine Power - additional to Favor of the Gods)
• +4: Bane Enhancement (Aeon Bane)
  • Total Maximum Attack Bonus: 148

Lmao I forgot the +4 Insight from Bound of Possibility. So it's even higher.

11 APR with Impending Demise + Hasty Eradicator

Edit: fixed STR mod error

 

[FreeKaner]

Can't believe they managed to fix mounted combat. The UI is very intuitive and functional, it behaves well, you can get charges off when you have clear path and can even chain them. I also can't believe that even horn attacks connect on charge now, such a progress from even regular weapons not hitting half the time. Just very enjoyable experience.

 

[santino27]

Charges still fail regularly in TB--meaning you start to charge and then stop as combat begins--especially if used as an alpha strike. And then it not only costs the charger their movement (they still get their turn in that opening round, but can only travel ~5 feet, and never reach the target), it also burns the MC's turn.