Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Rhobar121]

In the case of Nulkineth, it's useless because you can use the freedom of movement.
You don't even have to spend your slots on spells (although I don't know what else you would need here because it's the only demon in this location) because you can use scrolls.

This is literally an extremely niche hex that can be useful for 1-2 fights throughout the first two acts and in either case you can achieve the same effect by using freedom of movement. You don't even need it on every character.

Lol I don't want to blow all that money (and attention) on scrolls if I don't have to. If you're not using Crusader's Edge against Nulk what are you even doing?

Of course it's niche. I've already got a Hex that's spammable and always good. If that niche is the thing responsible for the lion's share of my wipes across multiple playthroughs then an ability that closes that niche is very good. And it's not one or two fights. I go to camp to rest after Nulk and the very next fight is Garg Chief down the mountain who's wiped me before with Blasphemy. Not now that I've got Draconic! Maugla usually doesn't get Hold, Mass up but other Nabasu have depending on how well hidden they are. I got Ashbery Hamlet ghost to Rift some summons last time then got got by Blasphemy there too (did end up barely pulling it out). And yeah Minagho's Putrefaction's gotten me in final Drezen fight before too. Chivarro has Hold, Mass etc (by then Freedom does become more practical, but it's moot because Cam's dead).

In general though if I'm fighting undead Freedom slots want to be Death Ward and against Demons they want to be Crusader's Edge, so the first several levels after Freedom becoming available it gets crowded out.

The rnd/lvl duration makes prebuffing with BubbleBot seem a little less exploitative than doing it with the short duration hexes.

I rarely play compositions based on a large amount of melee. Usually there are no more than 2-3 (including pets).
I just don't have the patience for the stupid AI in this game.
I don't like how a character can get stuck on a stone and go around firing all the AoOs (that's why Camielia almost always goes to the bench when she unlocks Sosiel).

About Chief, when you play for the first time it is a real shock. This is the first enemy appearance with a billion AC.
Despite this, apart from the first approach to it, I always have a bigger problem with demodand.
Although I usually use guarded hearth during boss fights, maybe that's why I don't have that problem with him.
I always have the biggest problem with shadow demon votary. These enemies are some of the worst you will meet in act 2 and unfortunately have quite good saves.

 

[Desiderius]

1. Icy Prison, Mass
2. Tsunami
3. Weird
4. Angelic Aspect, Greater
5. Protection from Spells
6. Seamantle
7. Polymorph, Greater
8. Banishment
9. Sirocco

I have listed only the most useful to which Ember has no access.
Plus the difference between the ability to preparing spells and a spontaneous casting.

More endgame theorycrafting. As if by that point you need access to all those spells. Lategame Ember's got her own high level spells to wreck with and the rest of the team gets its own stuff. Seelah gets AA, Greater at lvl 13 anyway and Seamantle gets bypassed by Freedom of Movement.

If there's something on that list you want there are a lot of ways to get it. Obv Nenio's going to be better at Weirding but that can get to the point that it trivializes the game in any case.

If you play normal, you may not need it. Honestly, that would explain a lot of things.
Due to how lethal critical hits are in this game, if an enemy hits you, you will most likely die. The last stand doesn't really help much here because it only works once a day for 3 turns.
Without protective luck, you can have up to + 100AC and it won't help you much if the enemy hits you critically.
The farther in the game, the more attacks the enemies have, so you will most likely be hit in the end anyway.
You don't even have to use it in combat, as you might as well do it moments before.

Seriously, just fuck yourself. I've been posting pics on Hard/Unfair for four years. Where's yours?

I gave Cam a Leopard in my Unfair run and had her keep Protective Luck up to get through the first few levels but after Garrison no longer needed it. I play Hard now because it's a good fit for just playing a low reload game without needing shenanigans like that.

Most crits (rare needing two 20s) from non-bosses aren't lethal if you've got temporary HPs and some DR (reduces damage pre-doubling) but once things get rolling enemy attacks don't show up on my Combat Log much at all. Nat 20s can be managed in that environment but I also keep rezzes like Breath of Life up in case things get out of hand. If Last Stand isn't good for you you're getting killed too often. Sounds like that's due to letting yourself get attacked too often due to poor initiative/debuffing/disabling/distraction. That will happen if you've got one character just spamming a Hex instead of presenting threats.

I just listed a wizard spell that Ember doesn't have access to, that's it. I limited myself to high lvl only because there was a question about Woljif.

There are a lot of murderous non-boss mobs. The ones you meet quite early are glabrezu.
The only sensible and easily available form of DR is stoneskin.
The problem is that it is on the same level as greater invisibility, which is the instant win for most of the fights you encounter in Chapter 2.
Temporal hp is also quite limited at the beginning, if I remember correctly the only spell available in act 2 is aid.

You may not like and use personal luck, but objectively it's one of the best hexes.
Reducing the chance of an enemy hit from 1/20 to 1/400 is a huge gain.
If you had to use it only in combat, you could argue whether it is really worth it, the problem is that thanks to the cackle it costs you literally nothing if you use it outside of combat.
Both this and fortune are quite unique effects that at almost zero cost (the only cost is spending time buffing) allow you to roll twice in almost any situation.
Other hexes are much more situational and many of them can be replaced with spells like freedom of movement.
Freedom of Movement protects against a lot of annoying mechanics and, unlike draconic resistance, it lasts forever.
Due to the fact that it lasts so long, you can even use the only scrolls (usually you don't need this on all characters), until you unlock the abundant casting.
The scrolls themselves are also not very expensive.

It's a massively multi-dimensional game. Hallucinating that you've finally found the one weird trick you were unfortunately conditioned to seek has nothing to do with objectivity. There is no "objectively best" because there's not even any agreement on what metric it would be best at. Mine's "not dying." Given what's killed me this thing is absolute gold. If you're glorified soloing then sure Protective Luck spam adds massive value. I'm not so I don't claim that Draconic is "objectively" best, I just say it closes a hole in my game amazingly well and I'm glad my mind was open enough to look for it.

I like Luck fine but it fits better within a Chant-enabled Hex-focused action economy that just doesn't have the support in game as far as items, Feats etc so falls short of what an additional fast progression spellbook can offer depending on what the rest of the party is doing, and in some cases on Cam just dropping Hampering then slaying with a 15-20 Rapier. The prebuffing with Chant thing is just not something I'm interested in and not an intended use in my judgement.

Freedom scrolls en masse are... not cheap. I want Bracers of Rough Landing and Spell Pen Robe and Perception Ring and Rods etc, etc, money is tight.

And I've had Nulk start that fight winning initiative and dropping Hold, Mass on the whole team. I'm not dropping 4200 gold to prevent that (and then again on the other four fights) when I can get the same effect on a character who's dying in Ch3 anyway and will ride the bench for most of the time until then unless I need that ability.

Burst of Glory is a nice source of temp HP along with the +1 AB and both Cam and Wolj have the False Lifes. Rage also gives extra HP on classes that have it.

 

[Rhobar121]

1. Icy Prison, Mass
2. Tsunami
3. Weird
4. Angelic Aspect, Greater
5. Protection from Spells
6. Seamantle
7. Polymorph, Greater
8. Banishment
9. Sirocco

I have listed only the most useful to which Ember has no access.
Plus the difference between the ability to preparing spells and a spontaneous casting.

More endgame theorycrafting. As if by that point you need access to all those spells. Lategame Ember's got her own high level spells to wreck with and the rest of the team gets its own stuff. Seelah gets AA, Greater at lvl 13 anyway and Seamantle gets bypassed by Freedom of Movement.

If there's something on that list you want there are a lot of ways to get it. Obv Nenio's going to be better at Weirding but that can get to the point that it trivializes the game in any case.

If you play normal, you may not need it. Honestly, that would explain a lot of things.
Due to how lethal critical hits are in this game, if an enemy hits you, you will most likely die. The last stand doesn't really help much here because it only works once a day for 3 turns.
Without protective luck, you can have up to + 100AC and it won't help you much if the enemy hits you critically.
The farther in the game, the more attacks the enemies have, so you will most likely be hit in the end anyway.
You don't even have to use it in combat, as you might as well do it moments before.

Seriously, just fuck yourself. I've been posting pics on Hard/Unfair for four years. Where's yours?

I gave Cam a Leopard in my Unfair run and had her keep Protective Luck up to get through the first few levels but after Garrison no longer needed it. I play Hard now because it's a good fit for just playing a low reload game without needing shenanigans like that.

Most crits (rare needing two 20s) from non-bosses aren't lethal if you've got temporary HPs and some DR (reduces damage pre-doubling) but once things get rolling enemy attacks don't show up on my Combat Log much at all. Nat 20s can be managed in that environment but I also keep rezzes like Breath of Life up in case things get out of hand. If Last Stand isn't good for you you're getting killed too often. Sounds like that's due to letting yourself get attacked too often due to poor initiative/debuffing/disabling/distraction. That will happen if you've got one character just spamming a Hex instead of presenting threats.

I just listed a wizard spell that Ember doesn't have access to, that's it. I limited myself to high lvl only because there was a question about Woljif.

There are a lot of murderous non-boss mobs. The ones you meet quite early are glabrezu.
The only sensible and easily available form of DR is stoneskin.
The problem is that it is on the same level as greater invisibility, which is the instant win for most of the fights you encounter in Chapter 2.
Temporal hp is also quite limited at the beginning, if I remember correctly the only spell available in act 2 is aid.

You may not like and use personal luck, but objectively it's one of the best hexes.
Reducing the chance of an enemy hit from 1/20 to 1/400 is a huge gain.
If you had to use it only in combat, you could argue whether it is really worth it, the problem is that thanks to the cackle it costs you literally nothing if you use it outside of combat.
Both this and fortune are quite unique effects that at almost zero cost (the only cost is spending time buffing) allow you to roll twice in almost any situation.
Other hexes are much more situational and many of them can be replaced with spells like freedom of movement.
Freedom of Movement protects against a lot of annoying mechanics and, unlike draconic resistance, it lasts forever.
Due to the fact that it lasts so long, you can even use the only scrolls (usually you don't need this on all characters), until you unlock the abundant casting.
The scrolls themselves are also not very expensive.

It's a massively multi-dimensional game. Hallucinating that you've finally found the one weird trick you were unfortunately conditioned to seek has nothing to do with objectivity. There is no "objectively best" because there's not even any agreement on what metric it would be best at. Mine's "not dying." Given what's killed me this thing is absolute gold. If you're glorified soloing then sure Protective Luck spam adds massive value. I'm not so I don't claim that Draconic is "objectively" best, I just say it closes a hole in my game amazingly well and I'm glad my mind was open enough to look for it.

I like Luck fine but it fits better within a Chant-enabled Hex-focused action economy that just doesn't have the support in game as far as items, Feats etc so falls short of what an additional fast progression spellbook can offer depending on what the rest of the party is doing, and in some cases on Cam just dropping Hampering then slaying with a 15-20 Rapier. The prebuffing with Chant thing is just not something I'm interested in and not an intended use in my judgement.

Freedom scrolls en masse are... not cheap. I want Bracers of Rough Landing and Spell Pen Robe and Perception Ring and Rods etc, etc, money is tight.

And I've had Nulk start that fight winning initiative and dropping Hold, Mass on the whole team. I'm not dropping 4200 gold to prevent that (and then again on the other four fights) when I can get the same effect on a character who's dying in Ch3 anyway and will ride the bench for most of the time until then unless I need that ability.

Burst of Glory is a nice source of temp HP along with the +1 AB and both Cam and Wolj have the False Lifes. Rage also gives extra HP on classes that have it.

As for temporary hp, I meant effects that are not personal.
I forgot about the burst of glory completely.

For the rest, maybe we agree that we completely disagree with hexes?
Rather, it makes no sense to continue this.

As for gold, I had no problem buying things that I need, There is quite a lot gold (especially if you don't spend on crusade) and in Drezen you get a lot of items for sale.

 

[Haplo]

I just can't figure any of the other companions as a Skald. Well, not ones that I want to take, Seelah would work but fuck her.

Arue works. Even Daeran would do.

 

[Lambach]

Isn't it a Fascinate though? Damage breaks those and Last Stand lets you survive damage. My Trickster quest bugged out before I got that far.

The problem with that strategy is that you have to spend actions to do damage on your own Party Members instead of Nocticula, and that's assuming there's even one Party Member who isn't affected by it. And you really, really want to bring down Nocticula ASAP because she hits like a goddamn truck with auto-attacks. But again, that's assuming you have anyone in your Party you can control in the first place, which you won't unless you pump everyone's Fort Saves sky-high.

Alternatively you could quit chasing memes/dismissing abilities that provide resilience ("there's nothing good to take") and get your saves up/pick Mythics that defend against Mythic Abilities.

It literally bypasses everything unless you beat a Fort Save. Not sure why it says 43 here, it's 47 in my Combat Logs (perhaps it's a Difficulty adjustment).

Another problem is that, for this fight on the Demon Path, you get teleported into her throne room, which is followed by dialogue and the then the combat starts immediately, so you don't even have the opportunity to put down some of the classics that help you boost Saves, like Guarded Hearth, Inspired/Demonic Rage etc.

I mean, it's not impossible to beat this, but there's just one way and one way only to do it, which makes it really shitty design.

 

[Desiderius]

In the case of Nulkineth, it's useless because you can use the freedom of movement.
You don't even have to spend your slots on spells (although I don't know what else you would need here because it's the only demon in this location) because you can use scrolls.

This is literally an extremely niche hex that can be useful for 1-2 fights throughout the first two acts and in either case you can achieve the same effect by using freedom of movement. You don't even need it on every character.

Lol I don't want to blow all that money (and attention) on scrolls if I don't have to. If you're not using Crusader's Edge against Nulk what are you even doing?

Of course it's niche. I've already got a Hex that's spammable and always good. If that niche is the thing responsible for the lion's share of my wipes across multiple playthroughs then an ability that closes that niche is very good. And it's not one or two fights. I go to camp to rest after Nulk and the very next fight is Garg Chief down the mountain who's wiped me before with Blasphemy. Not now that I've got Draconic! Maugla usually doesn't get Hold, Mass up but other Nabasu have depending on how well hidden they are. I got Ashbery Hamlet ghost to Rift some summons last time then got got by Blasphemy there too (did end up barely pulling it out). And yeah Minagho's Putrefaction's gotten me in final Drezen fight before too. Chivarro has Hold, Mass etc (by then Freedom does become more practical, but it's moot because Cam's dead).

In general though if I'm fighting undead Freedom slots want to be Death Ward and against Demons they want to be Crusader's Edge, so the first several levels after Freedom becoming available it gets crowded out.

The rnd/lvl duration makes prebuffing with BubbleBot seem a little less exploitative than doing it with the short duration hexes.

I rarely play compositions based on a large amount of melee. Usually there are no more than 2-3 (including pets).
I just don't have the patience for the stupid AI in this game.
I don't like how a character can get stuck on a stone and go around firing all the AoOs (that's why Camielia almost always goes to the bench when she unlocks Sosiel).

About Chief, when you play for the first time it is a real shock. This is the first enemy appearance with a billion AC.
Despite this, apart from the first approach to it, I always have a bigger problem with demodand.
Although I usually use guarded hearth during boss fights, maybe that's why I don't have that problem with him.
I always have a bigger problem with shadow demon votary. These enemies are some of the worst you will meet and unfortunately have quite good saves. The problem with them is that there are a lot of them in drezen.

Chief's AC isn't the problem, it's the Blasphemy

Isn't it a Fascinate though? Damage breaks those and Last Stand lets you survive damage. My Trickster quest bugged out before I got that far.

The problem with that strategy is that you have to spend actions to do damage on your own Party Members instead of Nocticula, and that's assuming there's even one Party Member who isn't affected by it. And you really, really want to bring down Nocticula ASAP because she hits like a goddamn truck with auto-attacks. But again, that's assuming you have anyone in your Party you can control in the first place, which you won't unless you pump everyone's Fort Saves sky-high.

Alternatively you could quit chasing memes/dismissing abilities that provide resilience ("there's nothing good to take") and get your saves up/pick Mythics that defend against Mythic Abilities.

It literally bypasses everything unless you beat a Fort Save. Not sure why it says 43 here, it's 47 in my Combat Logs (perhaps it's a Difficulty adjustment).

Another problem is that, for this fight on the Demon Path, you get teleported into her throne room, which is followed by dialogue and the then the combat starts immediately, so you don't even have the opportunity to put down some of the classics that help you boost Saves, like Guarded Hearth, Inspired/Demonic Rage etc.

I mean, it's not impossible to beat this, but there's just one way and one way only to do it, which makes it really shitty design.

I’d have to look closer at Rupture Restraints. It isn’t Immunity it just auto-Dispels. Daeran’s mount had 28 Fort without doing anything special in Wintersun in the playthrough I just suspended so that DC shouldn’t be impossibly high to beat. With Last Stand whoever she smacks around should wake up long enough to do something.

There’s always something you can do, though sometimes like with House in P:K the game can sap your motivation to look for it.

Inspected Ramien for first time and Liberation Domain may be something I’d be interested in trying with Religion Trick now that Mind Blank is good. Not sure if the abilities are from a mod or vanilla.

 

[Desiderius]

BTW I got the Tower if Estrod bug too. It’s a new one.

 

[Lambach]

I’d have to look closer at Rupture Restraints.

If it does work for someone in their version of the game, well, it shouldn't and that's a bug. RR, per description, does not protect against Fascinate.

EDIT:

There’s always something you can do

Sure, you can get your Party Members Fort Saves very high through squeezing blood from a stone in the form of bonuses from every piece of equipment, every Meal Recipe, every little buff etc. that you would normally never use because they're sub-optimal for 99.9% of the rest of the game, and then spend 10 minutes pre-buffing everyone with Fortune + Cackle/Chant. Or you can just reload 7 billion times until the RNG Gods finally feel sorry for you and 2+ Party Members roll a 20 on their Saves, which would make them immune to this ability for 24 hours.

That still doesn't mean it's a good idea to design a fight in which those are your only two options.

 

[Rhobar121]

In the case of Nulkineth, it's useless because you can use the freedom of movement.
You don't even have to spend your slots on spells (although I don't know what else you would need here because it's the only demon in this location) because you can use scrolls.

This is literally an extremely niche hex that can be useful for 1-2 fights throughout the first two acts and in either case you can achieve the same effect by using freedom of movement. You don't even need it on every character.

Lol I don't want to blow all that money (and attention) on scrolls if I don't have to. If you're not using Crusader's Edge against Nulk what are you even doing?

Of course it's niche. I've already got a Hex that's spammable and always good. If that niche is the thing responsible for the lion's share of my wipes across multiple playthroughs then an ability that closes that niche is very good. And it's not one or two fights. I go to camp to rest after Nulk and the very next fight is Garg Chief down the mountain who's wiped me before with Blasphemy. Not now that I've got Draconic! Maugla usually doesn't get Hold, Mass up but other Nabasu have depending on how well hidden they are. I got Ashbery Hamlet ghost to Rift some summons last time then got got by Blasphemy there too (did end up barely pulling it out). And yeah Minagho's Putrefaction's gotten me in final Drezen fight before too. Chivarro has Hold, Mass etc (by then Freedom does become more practical, but it's moot because Cam's dead).

In general though if I'm fighting undead Freedom slots want to be Death Ward and against Demons they want to be Crusader's Edge, so the first several levels after Freedom becoming available it gets crowded out.

The rnd/lvl duration makes prebuffing with BubbleBot seem a little less exploitative than doing it with the short duration hexes.

I rarely play compositions based on a large amount of melee. Usually there are no more than 2-3 (including pets).
I just don't have the patience for the stupid AI in this game.
I don't like how a character can get stuck on a stone and go around firing all the AoOs (that's why Camielia almost always goes to the bench when she unlocks Sosiel).

About Chief, when you play for the first time it is a real shock. This is the first enemy appearance with a billion AC.
Despite this, apart from the first approach to it, I always have a bigger problem with demodand.
Although I usually use guarded hearth during boss fights, maybe that's why I don't have that problem with him.
I always have a bigger problem with shadow demon votary. These enemies are some of the worst you will meet and unfortunately have quite good saves. The problem with them is that there are a lot of them in drezen.

Chief's AC isn't the problem, it's the Blasphemy

You probably forgot how exactly this skill works.
"All friendly creatures in the area receive a sacred bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier on all saving throws and attack rolls while inside the warded area. "
Since Blasphemy requires Will, Guarded Hearth helps a lot.
At the moment of the game you can get +7 to Will.
You can additionally help yourself by summoning several groups of skeletons as meat shields.

 

[Lambach]

2. He's also bringing Woljif who has haste, so I ask again, why would he consider Nenio in the first place?

Apparently, Scroll Savants can be quite powerful and versatile if you know how to use them correctly. The combo of their Class Abilities and some gear in the game can give them an edge when casting from Scrolls beyond what most other Spellcasters can do (Mythic stuff excluded) when casting from their regular Spellbooks.

At least that's what I've heard other people say. I can't speak to it myself, because I can't fathom the idea of playing a character so heavily dependent on consumables to shine.

 

[Desiderius]

Sure, you can get your Party Members Fort Saves very high through squeezing blood from a stone in the form of bonuses from every piece of equipment, every Meal Recipe, every little buff etc. that you would normally never use because they're sub-optimal for 99.9% of the rest of the game, and then spend 10 minutes pre-buffing everyone with Fortune + Cackle/Chant. Or you can just reload 7 billion times until the RNG Gods finally feel sorry for you and 2+ Party Members roll a 20 on their Saves, which would make them immune to this ability for 24 hours.

No, you shouldn’t have to do that just to have a decent chance at beating a 43 DC save by endgame. It’s unclear to me though when exactly this fight takes place since my Trickster path bugged out on me.

All just depends on what you prioritize. A good balance of offense and defense would leave your team with saves in the 30s (at least) which would give you a 50% shot or 75% with Mythic.



If you've got a Mount you should have high enough Mobility to beat it, and there's nothing suboptimal here that I can see in this 50 Fort save. Just using the shit I've got that gives general bonuses.

 

[Desiderius]

2. He's also bringing Woljif who has haste, so I ask again, why would he consider Nenio in the first place?

Apparently, Scroll Savants can be quite powerful and versatile if you know how to use them correctly. The combo of their Class Abilities and some gear in the game can give them an edge when casting from Scrolls beyond what most other Spellcasters can do (Mythic stuff excluded) when casting from their regular Spellbooks.

At least that's what I've heard other people say. I can't speak to it myself, because I can't fathom the idea of playing a character so heavily dependent on consumables to shine.

She shines fine without them. I always plan to use a bunch of scrolls then end up over-hoarding instead and I still consider her irreplaceable (other than by an Illusionist MC like Phantasmal Mage).

 

[Lambach]

No, you shouldn’t have to do that just to have a decent chance at beating a 43 DC save by endgame.

It's actually 47. I don't know why that description says 43. I assume it's a default value of some kind and it differs based on Difficulty. People playing on Hard or Unfair are likely even more ass-fucked.

It’s unclear to me though when exactly this fight takes place since my Trickster path bugged out on me.

You can do it pretty much right at the start of Chapter 5, though it's not necessary. But it's nice to hit MR 9 almost immediately after the Chapter starts.

A good balance of offense and defense would leave your team with saves in the 30s which would give you a 50% shot or 75% with Mythic.

No, the average Party will not have most members with 35+ in Fort Saves, specially considering you likely won't get the opportunity to put down that Guarded Hearth for the +10-ish bonus it provides.

my Trickster/Legend MC (optimized for CMB) with 60 Reflex on the Khor fight.

That's impressive. And also irrelevant. You're still getting ass-fucked by Nocticula because she's going to attack your Fort Save, which is probably nowhere nearly as high. And even if it is, defeating her without the rest of your Party is not very likely. Unless you get really lucky and land a 2000+ damage Crit Vital Strike or something, I guess.

Point is, this is bad design because it's an obstacle with only one solution. If there's a situation that forces you down one single path in a game that otherwise offers a billion choices when it comes to dealing with pretty much any other situation, then the aforementioned railroded one needs to be redesigned.

 

[Desiderius]

No, you shouldn’t have to do that just to have a decent chance at beating a 43 DC save by endgame.

It's actually 47. I don't know why that description says 43. I assume it's a default value of some kind and it differs based on Difficulty. People playing on Hard on Unfair are likely even more ass-fucked.

It’s unclear to me though when exactly this fight takes place since my Trickster path bugged out on me.

You can do it pretty much right at the start of Chapter 5, though it's not necessary. But it's nice to hit MR 9 almost immediately after the Chapter starts.

A good balance of offense and defense would leave your team with saves in the 30s which would give you a 50% shot or 75% with Mythic.

No, the average Party will not have most members with 35+ in Fort Saves, specially considering you likely won't get the opportunity to put down that Guarded Hearth for the +10-ish bonus it provides.

my Trickster/Legend MC (optimized for CMB) with 60 Reflex on the Khor fight.

That's impressive. And also irrelevant. You're still getting ass-fucked by Nocticula because she's going to attack your Fort Save, which is probably nowhere nearly as high. And even if it is, defeating her without the rest of your Party is not very likely. Unless you get really lucky and land a 2000+ damage Crit Vital Strike or something, I guess.

Point is, this is bad design because it's an obstacle with only one solution. If there's a situation that forces you down one single path in a game that otherwise offers a billion choices when it comes to dealing with pretty much any other situation, then the aforementioned railroded one needs to be redesigned.

I updated my post above. Look at the 50 Fort Save. What there is suboptimal? And you've got Mobility items that let you make that save on your main mounted character too. I rarely use Hearth. Martials get good Fort Saves. How is it possible for Reg to only have 16 Fort Save? Git mediocre.

Intended play is probably to bring some AoE damage spells/scolls and use them on whoever makes the save, although Last Stand should work too on whoever gets hit by Noct. That's just one standard action which shouldn't be too much to ask.

 

[Rhobar121]

No, you shouldn’t have to do that just to have a decent chance at beating a 43 DC save by endgame.

It's actually 47. I don't know why that description says 43. I assume it's a default value of some kind and it differs based on Difficulty. People playing on Hard on Unfair are likely even more ass-fucked.

It’s unclear to me though when exactly this fight takes place since my Trickster path bugged out on me.

You can do it pretty much right at the start of Chapter 5, though it's not necessary. But it's nice to hit MR 9 almost immediately after the Chapter starts.

A good balance of offense and defense would leave your team with saves in the 30s which would give you a 50% shot or 75% with Mythic.

No, the average Party will not have most members with 35+ in Fort Saves, specially considering you likely won't get the opportunity to put down that Guarded Hearth for the +10-ish bonus it provides.

my Trickster/Legend MC (optimized for CMB) with 60 Reflex on the Khor fight.

That's impressive. And also irrelevant. You're still getting ass-fucked by Nocticula because she's going to attack your Fort Save, which is probably nowhere nearly as high. And even if it is, defeating her without the rest of your Party is not very likely. Unless you get really lucky and land a 2000+ damage Crit Vital Strike or something, I guess.

Point is, this is bad design because it's an obstacle with only one solution. If there's a situation that forces you down one single path in a game that otherwise offers a billion choices when it comes to dealing with pretty much any other situation, then the aforementioned railroded one needs to be redesigned.

I updated my post above. Look at the 50 Fort Save. What there is suboptimal? And you've got Mobility items that let you make that save on your main mounted character too. I rarely use Hearth. Rhobar121 says it's Will in any case which wouldn't help. Martials get good Fort Saves. How is it possible for Reg to only have 16 Fort Save? Git mediocre.

Intended play is probably to bring some AoE damage spells/scolls and use them on whoever makes the save, although Last Stand should work too on whoever gets hit by Noct. That's just one standard action which shouldn't be too much to ask.

View attachment 30412

Guarded Hearth gives a bonus to all saves.
Will is the save that is required to repel Blasphemy.

Technically madness domain could help for the next +10 to all saves, the problem is that it only lasts 3 rounds so here you would have to hurry to save at least 2 party members.

 

[Lambach]

I updated my post above. Look at the 50 Fort Save. What there is suboptimal?

It's only on one Character. The Party's most powerful character, i.e. the MC. And by the looks of it, it's a Character with a naturally high Fort Save bonus from his Class(es) and decent Constitution.

A lot of people play the Demon Path as casters, because some Demonic Aspects provide excellent benefits for them (+INT or +WIS that stack with everything, +(also all-stacking) Spell DC, being able to cast Spells as a Move Action etc.) Can't expect most focused casters to hit those Fort Save numbers, so you're almost certainly down your most powerful Party member with p. much no counterplay available.

Intended play is probably to bring some AoE damage spells/scolls and use them on whoever makes the save

I haven't seen anyone else anywhere on the Internet recommend this strategy. Probably because Seductive Presence is a Free Action with infinite uses, so you'd have to do this every round. And also maybe because it just doesn't work. This is clearly a very different form of Fascinate compared to what, say, a Bard has so it's entirely possible damage does not disrupt it. I'll have to test that to know for sure, though.

 

[Desiderius]

IIRC that Blasphemy DC is around 30 on Unfair so going to be tough to guarantee even with Hearth, though the fight does set up reasonably well for it since you just need to fade the initial cast then can probably let Chief come to you inside the circle. Bad roll on your MC and Cleric and you're still in tough shape. Can also bring Evil characters to help dodge it.

 

[Desiderius]

I updated my post above. Look at the 50 Fort Save. What there is suboptimal?

It's only on one Character. The Party's most powerful character, i.e. the MC. And by the looks of it, it's a Character with a naturally high Fort Save bonus from his Class(es) and decent Constitution.

A lot of people play the Demon Path as casters, because some Demonic Aspects provide excellent benefits for them (+INT or +WIS that stack with everything, +(also all-stacking) Spell DC, being able to cast Spells as a Move Action etc.) Can't expect most focused casters to hit those Fort Save numbers, so you're almost certainly down your most powerful Party member with p. much no counterplay available.

Intended play is probably to bring some AoE damage spells/scolls and use them on whoever makes the save

I haven't seen anyone else anywhere on the Internet recommend this strategy. Probably because Seductive Presence is a Free Action with infinite uses, so you'd have to do this every round. And also maybe because it just doesn't work. This is clearly a very different form of Fascinate compared to what, say, a Bard has so it's entirely possible damage does not disrupt it. I'll have to test that to know for sure, though.

Bear's Endurance, Mass (+2) is pretty easy to keep up by that point and serves several purposes. MC can use Venerated Belt for another +3 since Bull's/Cat's, Mass can cover fighting stats. Greater Heroism (+4) and a Cloak/Spell for (at least) +4 Resistance are no brainers and Shake +4 can be picked up by then. MC has the book bonus for another +1 and might as well put Ring of Summoning +2 on MC. Light Aura (+2) is AoE from Shield you get at Baph fight at end of ch4. That's 26 right there. Even if Fort is weak save that gets you to 32 without even buffing Fort Saves specifically, which might be a good idea for a caster late to shore up weak save.

She can spam it but each time she uses it gives another opportunity for team to make the save to get immunity for 24 hrs.

 

[Lambach]

Bear's Endurance, Mass (+2) is pretty easy to keep up by that point and serves several purposes. MC can use Venerated Belt for another +3 since Bull's/Cat's, Mass can cover fighting stats. Greater Heroism (+4) and a Cloak/Spell for (at least) +4 Resistance are no brainers and Shake +4 can be picked up by then. MC has the book bonus for another +1 and might as well put Ring of Summoning +2 on MC. Light Aura (+2) is AoE from Shield you get at Baph fight at end of ch4. That's 26 right there. Even if Fort is weak save that gets you to 32 without even buffing Fort Saves specifically, which might be a good idea for a caster late to shore up weak save.

"Stack Fort Save to win the fight".

Yeah, I know, duh. Problem is, there's nothing else you can do. There's no other (major) encounter in the game, that I'm aware of, which offers only one path to victory. And that just doesn't belong in a game which has build-porn and vast playstle variety as some of its main features.

 

[Rhobar121]

IIRC that Blasphemy DC is around 30 on Unfair so going to be tough to guarantee even with Hearth, though the fight does set up reasonably well for it since you just need to fade the initial cast then can probably let Chief come to you inside the circle. Bad roll on your MC and Cleric and you're still in tough shape. Can also bring Evil characters to help dodge it.

It's not so bad.
GH is +7
Bestow Grace is a minimum of +2 (Eagle's Splendor) for 2 good characters
Guidance +1
Heroism +2
Bracers (only main character) +1
Wisdom +2 (Owl's Wisdom)

This is +14 with only bonuses (+15 on main char).

As proof, my 8 lvl kindred raised sorcerer

 

[Desiderius]

Bear's Endurance, Mass (+2) is pretty easy to keep up by that point and serves several purposes. MC can use Venerated Belt for another +3 since Bull's/Cat's, Mass can cover fighting stats. Greater Heroism (+4) and a Cloak/Spell for (at least) +4 Resistance are no brainers and Shake +4 can be picked up by then. MC has the book bonus for another +1 and might as well put Ring of Summoning +2 on MC. Light Aura (+2) is AoE from Shield you get at Baph fight at end of ch4. That's 26 right there. Even if Fort is weak save that gets you to 32 without even buffing Fort Saves specifically, which might be a good idea for a caster late to shore up weak save.

"Stack Fort Save to win the fight".

Yeah, I know, duh. Problem is, there's nothing else you can do. There's no other (major) encounter in the game, that I'm aware of, which offers only one path to victory. And that just doesn't belong in a game which has build-porn and vast playstle variety as some of its main features.

If you've got 16 Fort on Regill you've got *much* bigger problems than just Fort saves. The point is that I'm not stacking Fort Saves (that character had 60 Reflex), I'm just paying minimal attention to keeping my saves up in general. Only thing in that pic that's Fort specific is the Belt and main purpose of that is giving MC an HP cushion since it can't be rezzed. Everything else is just general save support with many of the elements having other benefits like Heroism, Greater. Baph fight gives you a shield with long lasting saves bonus. Are you just not using it? Why?

Love how people pretend "there's nothing worth taking" then cry for a nerf when it comes back to bite them. There's a lot that's worth taking. Find them. It's fun.

 

[Desiderius]

IIRC that Blasphemy DC is around 30 on Unfair so going to be tough to guarantee even with Hearth, though the fight does set up reasonably well for it since you just need to fade the initial cast then can probably let Chief come to you inside the circle. Bad roll on your MC and Cleric and you're still in tough shape. Can also bring Evil characters to help dodge it.

It's not so bad.
GH is +7
Bestow Grace is a minimum of +2 (Eagle's Splendor) for 2 good characters
Guidance +1
Heroism +2
Bracers (only main character) +1
Wisdom +2 (Owl's Wisdom)

This is +14 with only bonuses (+15 on main char).

As proof, my 8 lvl kindred raised sorcerer

Lol +9 Bestow Grace at lvl 8. I'll take my immunity thx.

 

[Rhobar121]

IIRC that Blasphemy DC is around 30 on Unfair so going to be tough to guarantee even with Hearth, though the fight does set up reasonably well for it since you just need to fade the initial cast then can probably let Chief come to you inside the circle. Bad roll on your MC and Cleric and you're still in tough shape. Can also bring Evil characters to help dodge it.

It's not so bad.
GH is +7
Bestow Grace is a minimum of +2 (Eagle's Splendor) for 2 good characters
Guidance +1
Heroism +2
Bracers (only main character) +1
Wisdom +2 (Owl's Wisdom)

This is +14 with only bonuses (+15 on main char).

As proof, my 8 lvl kindred raised sorcerer

Lol +9 Bestow Grace at lvl 8. I'll take my immunity thx.

Actually, it's not that hard, just start with 22 charisma (I like to start with even stats) + eagle's splendor.

This is not the point. Even if the character had only +3 (12 charisma + eagle's splendor), you would still have +24 to will, which is enough to consistently repel blasphemy.

 

[Lambach]

If you've got 16 Fort on Regill you've got *much* bigger problems than just Fort saves.

You did, I hope, notice that he's completely unbuffed and without proper gear because I just needed to grab a quick screenshot to prove RR doesn't work here and did not actually prepare for that fight (or any other fight, for that matter)?

The point is that I'm not stacking Fort Saves (that character had 60 Reflex), I'm just paying minimal attention to keeping my saves up in general.

> +16 from Class
> + 7 from CON
> + 6 from a buff that works only on Good Characters (of which I have 0 in my Party)
> + 4 from a Teamwork Feat that most people won't take because things like Outflank and Seize the Moment are better options 95% of the time

I mean just this stuff I listed won't be available to a solid majority of Characters because it requires a combination of features that only a certain limited subset of Characters can have access to (Good-aligned, likely almost exclusively levels in Martial Classes, decently high CON and CHA, not Feat-starved). Other types of Characters are pretty much fucked by default in this particular fight and have no means of counter-play, unlike in p. much any other fight I can think of.

 

[Desiderius]

+ 4 from a Teamwork Feat that most people won't take because things like Outflank and Seize the Moment are better options 95% of the time