Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

There was an Old World Game of the Week where they turned on immersive mode and it was pretty cool, so I may try that. Reason I said all Chaos because that was mostly what I was doing with Demon anyway since I'm not much for Evil.

Went with Half-Elf Spawn Slayer for Aeon since only downside of Spawn Slayer is losing Swift Study and Aeon is already Swift clogged so seems like good fit. Lets me lose Aru for all Lawful team while still getting to use Big Game Gloves if a little late. Gloves + Study + Aeon Swift will make for a nice turn. Plus going all in on Stealth will let it Study at leisure anyway since it doesn't trigger combat. Stealth/Trickery/Mobility/Perception on MC since can eventually mount Bismuth to turn on Snap Shot. LG to unlock Delamere's Bow.

Pal5/TSS1/Pal8/TSS on Seelah
Straight HK on Reg with Nobility, Travel, and Law Domain (Zealot if it will let me now)
Lann ZA2/Drovier w/speed aura and Smilo pet/eventual mount
Sos
Nenio

Should be interesting. We'll see how much I hate the splashes. May take it RTwP to allow spell interruption and turn on Leading Strike for Reg.

 

[Yosharian]

Since

Spoiler

Aeon can't fight Noct

, is it reasonable to take her gift, or is that not a thing?

 

[The_Mask]

Technically, there is no drawback, no. You can do whatever you want as an Aeon, as long as you respect the law of the plane you are in.

There might be an alignment point towards evil or chaos... but if you've played an pure, lawful Aeon up until that point, there shouldn't be an issue.

The thing with Aeon is that the start is slow, tedious and rough, but the end game is gloriously OP. And the reactivity is glorious.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You can do whatever you want as an Aeon, as long as you respect the law of the plane you are in.

So you, uh, can't actually do whatever you want as an Aeon.

 

[Desiderius]

Aeons want to follow the lawl.

That’s what lawlful means.

 

[Haplo]

You can do whatever you want as an Aeon, as long as you respect the law of the plane you are in.

So you, uh, can't actually do whatever you want as an Aeon.

You kind of can, but then you'll not become a True Aeon and won't be able to impact the story as much.
Choice & Consequence.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol, twelfth time thru or whatever and still finding good shit:



Didn't turn out to need Meta Snowballs last run so was thinking of taking the Dazzling Display Hex but going to be dropping Cam before Shatter even shows up so looking at other Hexes.

Oh nothing just completely solves all my wipes from last playthrough* (with Bubble Buff can apply to team instantaneously before fight). Game pays off keeping an open mind so hard.

* - also prevents Minagho from owning team with Putrefaction, main thing I'm looking for is paralysis defense vs Garg Cave/Garg Chief/Nulk/Nabasu

 

[Haplo]

Could be handy... were it not for the use/duration limitations.

I mean for me the main draw of Hexes is that they're unlimited use. This one isn't.

 

[Desiderius]

Could be handy... were it not for the use/duration limitations.

I mean for me the main draw of Hexes is that they're unlimited use. This one isn't.

C’mon man use your head and think of frequency and severity of what it prevents. Concrete instead of just abstract.

She already has an unlimited use Hex (Hampering Hex) that’s always good. And *two* other good action econs.

But a 32+ DC Mass Hold or Putrefaction or Blasphemy will wipe you if you don’t have a plan. If you only need it once per rest (which is the case) it *is* unlimited use unlike Freedom of Movement (which you don’t even have yet at first Minagho fight) and competes for slots with Death Ward/Edge when you get it.

Duration? 7 rounds is more than enough for those fights. It’s a godsend. Helluva lot longer than Protective Luck lol.

Main competition is other passives like Iceplant/Dazzling/Secret that I might take if I weren’t dropping her when she starts eating people.

If you like Protective Luck you can just take that over Hampering.

 

[Daidre]

Main competition is other passives like Iceplant/Dazzling/Secret that I might take if I weren’t dropping her when she starts eating people.

And that is why Camellia's archetype sucks. She has shitty 1 min long/per use Weapon Enchant but pays for it with all amazing flexibility standard Shaman could get from Wandering Spirit/Hex that grants access to practically ANY hex in in the game whenever you may need it.
Well, Weapon Enchant is not completely awful of course, but she usually ends up in the basement long before she will get a chance to apply it for anything but Ghost Touch.

 

[Desiderius]

Main competition is other passives like Iceplant/Dazzling/Secret that I might take if I weren’t dropping her when she starts eating people.

And that is why Camellia's archetype sucks. She has shitty 1 min long/per use Weapon Enchant but pays for it with all amazing flexibility standard Shaman could get from Wandering Spirit/Hex that grants access to practically ANY hex in in the game whenever you may need it.
Well, Weapon Enchant is not completely awful of course, but she usually ends up in the basement long before she will get a chance to apply it for anything but Ghost Touch.

Wandering could be handy. But Enemies Bane has (much) longer duration than Bane Weapon in clunkier chunks. Enchant gets Keen right away which is good value on Rapier as long as she’s Reduced w/DEX to damage to give her something to multiply, but not long until she’s triggering Outflank AoOs too. Those make Battle Mastery Hex pretty solid.

I just use Hampering first round then wade in instead of Iceplant. Saves cash on the ring. Ranged xBow is pretty good but wastes Finesse/Rapier/Buckler prof.

 

[ga♥]

Main competition is other passives like Iceplant/Dazzling/Secret that I might take if I weren’t dropping her when she starts eating people.

And that is why Camellia's archetype sucks. She has shitty 1 min long/per use Weapon Enchant but pays for it with all amazing flexibility standard Shaman could get from Wandering Spirit/Hex that grants access to practically ANY hex in in the game whenever you may need it.
Well, Weapon Enchant is not completely awful of course, but she usually ends up in the basement long before she will get a chance to apply it for anything but Ghost Touch.

Melee wise as a martial, compared to the other companions you get, she was very very solid.
With the nerfs to elemental barrage and magic vestment (I read on reddit it was "fixed"?), she not that great anymore.

Iceplant/Dazzling into shatter and Secret to metamagic extend works very well.
(I agree that if you want to hex better pick another archetype but it doesn't sucks).
She is a fighter not a hex spammer.

 

[Desiderius]

Main competition is other passives like Iceplant/Dazzling/Secret that I might take if I weren’t dropping her when she starts eating people.

And that is why Camellia's archetype sucks. She has shitty 1 min long/per use Weapon Enchant but pays for it with all amazing flexibility standard Shaman could get from Wandering Spirit/Hex that grants access to practically ANY hex in in the game whenever you may need it.
Well, Weapon Enchant is not completely awful of course, but she usually ends up in the basement long before she will get a chance to apply it for anything but Ghost Touch.

Melee wise as a martial, compared to the other companions you get, she was very very solid.
With the nerfs to elemental barrage and magic vestment (I read on reddit it was "fixed"?), she not that great anymore.

Are you using Reduce Person and Bane Enemies? She was doing 4 packets of 30ish each per turn with Holy xBow in Drezen. In melee she’d have Crusader’s Edge (? not certain how it stacks with Bane Enemies) which would crit for the Nauseate/Sicken alot at 15/20 and have another +4 AB with Outflank and the addition of 8 DEX to damage (with bigger crits).

The general good/not good pronouncements aren’t very illuminating if we don’t know how you’re (mis?) using her. She did plenty for me once she got DEX-to-dam last time I meleed with her.

You can use metamagic on Spirit spells (like Extended Bull’s Strength) to fill obsolete Spirit slots (like Righteous Might), or just Second Spirit Mythic.

 

[ga♥]

The general good/not good pronouncements aren’t very illuminating if we don’t know how you’re (mis?) using her. She did plenty for me once she got DEX-to-dam last time I meleed with her.

Think about how you are ruining her by giving her a bow, "muh hampering", wasting feats when she's already feat starved, and repent.

Post your Camelia sheet boomer boy.

 

[Desiderius]

The general good/not good pronouncements aren’t very illuminating if we don’t know how you’re (mis?) using her. She did plenty for me once she got DEX-to-dam last time I meleed with her.

Think about how you are ruining her by giving her a bow, "muh hampering", wasting feats when she's already feat starved, and repent.

Post your Camelia sheet boomer boy.

No.

She had a xBow because she needed the ranged Feats for 230 pt Snowballs at lvl 11. Melee Cam builds itself. If she’s not doing good damage you’re missing half her abilities/spells that work well with DEX-melee.

You wouldn’t be the first. Look closer.

Hampering is -4 AC on anything (it’s not mind-affecting unlike Evil Eye) at lvl 8, -6 at lvl 16. You guys who think you have to stick to your Weapon Focus weapon for that 1 AB are really going to tell me that 4 AB for whole team isn’t worth it?

 

[ga♥]

The general good/not good pronouncements aren’t very illuminating if we don’t know how you’re (mis?) using her. She did plenty for me once she got DEX-to-dam last time I meleed with her.

Think about how you are ruining her by giving her a bow, "muh hampering", wasting feats when she's already feat starved, and repent.

Post your Camelia sheet boomer boy.

No.

Why not? Since you insist on helping me, I have nothing to show as my last playthrough was in the 1.3.x patches and I am not playing at the moment, just pissed as some nerfing.

Was thinking to run an azata, since I miss that, but I don't feel like it, rather wait the new DLCs, and hopefully some feat/mythic feat that could make heavy armor better (they keep repeating they will add something).

 

[Desiderius]

Focus, Fencing Grace, Outflank, Shatter if you have Intimidating Hex

Activate Enchant Weapon w/Keen or Enhancement bonus depending how much help you need hitting stuff. Available for four fights minimum per rest. Enemies Bane shows up at lvl 8 with same.

Once you have Grace try to keep Reduce Person up for +2 AB/AC and +1 expected damage net the smaller weapon die, likewise Cat's Grace if practical.

Hampering/Iceplant/Intimidating Presence good Hexes to pick up early, or you can take Draconic to make Nulk and similar fights a lot easier or Protective Luck if you're playing Unfair with a high AC tank.

Good spells: lvl one: Enlarge Person (Spirit) on Glaive-user, Bless, Prot from Alignment, Cause Fear, Remove Fear, Unbreakable Heart, lvl 2: Bull's Str (Spirit), Barkskin, Scare, Lesser Resto, False Life lvl 3: Animate Dead, Resist/Delay Communal

Animate Dead (Standard Action) and Creeping Doom two of best summons in the game so could grab Conj Focus/Augment summoning and focus on spells that bypass SR/Summons since late Nature's Allys are good too.

Perception check for Mind Piercer (+2, adds extra 1d6 piercing damage packet vs mind-affected targets, including Shaken) Rapier in Thieves Cave under Leper's Smile.

 

[Yosharian]

I decided to make a Shaman build that's just spamming hexes and healing occasionally. It's too much effort to make a hybrid work and why bother when in the difficult fights it will be Hexing anyway.

 

[Desiderius]

I decided to make a Shaman build that's just spamming hexes and healing occasionally. It's too much effort to make a hybrid work and why bother when in the difficult fights it will be Hexing anyway.

Because spammable single-target Hexes are low impact against things that don't have extreme stats and it's a 3/4 class with fast spell progression. You'll do a lot more as either an above average combatant with Battle Spirit or an AoE Nuker/Summoner/Debuffer with some of the others, then you've got Hexes in your pocket for the hardest targets and/or for utility/extra Feats (Shaman can use Hexes for Meta Feats or Dazzling).

 

[scytheavatar]

I decided to make a Shaman build that's just spamming hexes and healing occasionally. It's too much effort to make a hybrid work and why bother when in the difficult fights it will be Hexing anyway.

Because spammable single-target Hexes are low impact against things that don't have extreme stats and it's a 3/4 class with fast spell progression. You'll do a lot more as either an above average combatant with Battle Spirit or an AoE Nuker/Summoner/Debuffer with some of the others, then you've got Hexes in your pocket for the hardest targets and/or for utility/extra Feats (Shaman can use Hexes for Meta Feats or Dazzling).

Problem is that Shamans are meh as either a AoE Nuker/Debuffer...... and spamming Creeping Doom is cheese which you shouldn't be doing. And as a combatant a shaman is just merely above average. If you are not spamming hexes there's not much reason to take Camelia along.

 

[Daidre]

Are you using Reduce Person and Bane Enemies?

Yes, Bane of Enemies is the best Enchant that Camellia has - but thing is, it is level 8 ability from Battle Spirit, any Shaman archetype with Battle Spirit got it. And any shaman without Battle Spirit can get it from Wandering Spirit at lvl 12, with some delay.

Honestly, I was genuinely surprised when my Possessed Shaman MC got it. Turned out that Owlcat being Owlcat had not listed lvl 8 and lvl 16 abilities (each spirit has them) in Battle Spirit description. Btw, her Greater Spirit ability is Enlarge + Divine Power for minute, and that does not work well with her build.

Point is, that after Elemental Barrage fix Camellia got probably worst Shaman Archetype in the game and one that was made specifically for her, since Spirit Hunter is not in PnP : )
It is very surprising that Wildland Shaman, for example, gets much more - full pet, but paying less for it, since he still got Wandering Spirit to cheese Shatter prereqs.

 

[Yosharian]

I decided to make a Shaman build that's just spamming hexes and healing occasionally. It's too much effort to make a hybrid work and why bother when in the difficult fights it will be Hexing anyway.

Because spammable single-target Hexes are low impact against things that don't have extreme stats and it's a 3/4 class with fast spell progression. You'll do a lot more as either an above average combatant with Battle Spirit or an AoE Nuker/Summoner/Debuffer with some of the others, then you've got Hexes in your pocket for the hardest targets and/or for utility/extra Feats (Shaman can use Hexes for Meta Feats or Dazzling).

Problem is that Shamans are meh as either a AoE Nuker/Debuffer...... and spamming Creeping Doom is cheese which you shouldn't be doing. And as a combatant a shaman is just merely above average. If you are not spamming hexes there's not much reason to take Camelia along.

Anything weak enough not need to get Evil Eye'd, can still roll Nat 20s against my tanks, so casting Prot Luck on everyone is still better than getting into reach combat, doing some weak attacks, and probably getting targeted and alpha striked because of weak AC

And once Prot Luck is up, Fortune comes next, which makes the actual specialist damage dealers destroy everything even faster

I just don't see how a hybrid is more efficient at the game than a specialist Hexer, not to mention that the toys I get post-16 from the spirits that I would have to give up, were I to go Battle, turn the build into an even more incredible support

And yes spirits because taking Battle + losing Wandering means losing two spirits

 

[Desiderius]

I decided to make a Shaman build that's just spamming hexes and healing occasionally. It's too much effort to make a hybrid work and why bother when in the difficult fights it will be Hexing anyway.

Because spammable single-target Hexes are low impact against things that don't have extreme stats and it's a 3/4 class with fast spell progression. You'll do a lot more as either an above average combatant with Battle Spirit or an AoE Nuker/Summoner/Debuffer with some of the others, then you've got Hexes in your pocket for the hardest targets and/or for utility/extra Feats (Shaman can use Hexes for Meta Feats or Dazzling).

Problem is that Shamans are meh as either a AoE Nuker/Debuffer...... and spamming Creeping Doom is cheese which you shouldn't be doing. And as a combatant a shaman is just merely above average. If you are not spamming hexes there's not much reason to take Camelia along.

Anything weak enough not need to get Evil Eye'd, can still roll Nat 20s against my tanks, so casting Prot Luck on everyone is still better than getting into reach combat, doing some weak attacks, and probably getting targeted and alpha striked because of weak AC

And once Prot Luck is up, Fortune comes next, which makes the actual specialist damage dealers destroy everything even faster

I just don't see how a hybrid is more efficient at the game than a specialist Hexer, not to mention that the toys I get post-16 from the spirits that I would have to give up, were I to go Battle, turn the build into an even more incredible support

And yes spirits because taking Battle + losing Wandering means losing two spirits

Because you can use Secret Hex to go off on stacking Meta on Nukes with favorite Meta which isn’t my cup of tea either tbh, but it’s there, while you still have the main Hexes if you need them. Evidently TTT fixes Winter Witch now (which Shaman can qualify for) so you can even work Icy Prison in with your Evo nukes.

Or you can just make a Transmuter and spam Sickening Entanglement, Obsidian Flow, Baleful, Tar Pool, Polar Midnight, what have you then you wouldn’t need to protect your dudes much at all since most things couldn’t get to you.

I don’t prebuff Hexes (EDIT: Bubblebuff can do this? Probably a little too good/not WAI) so if you’ve got the patience for that knock yourself out I guess. If Hexes were intended to be a full action econ they would have included more feat/item support.

 

[Desiderius]

Are you using Reduce Person and Bane Enemies?

Yes, Bane of Enemies is the best Enchant that Camellia has - but thing is, it is level 8 ability from Battle Spirit, any Shaman archetype with Battle Spirit got it. And any shaman without Battle Spirit can get it from Wandering Spirit at lvl 12, with some delay.

Honestly, I was genuinely surprised when my Possessed Shaman MC got it. Turned out that Owlcat being Owlcat had not listed lvl 8 and lvl 16 abilities (each spirit has them) in Battle Spirit description. Btw, her Greater Spirit ability is Enlarge + Divine Power for minute, and that does not work well with her build.

Point is, that after Elemental Barrage fix Camellia got probably worst Shaman Archetype in the game and one that was made specifically for her, since Spirit Hunter is not in PnP : )
It is very surprising that Wildland Shaman, for example, gets much more - full pet, but paying less for it, since he still got Wandering Spirit to cheese Shatter prereqs.

Ember’s archetype is contradictory too. And Aru’s gets a scaling Stealth bonus but loses… Camouflage!

Too many DEX/CHR-based companions as well. I think even Greybor originally had Weapon Finesse with high STR or something weird.

 

[Lambach]

Hot damn, the fight against Nocticula has to be by far one of the most retarded things I've ever seen in any video-game, ever.

A constant aura that affects the entire screen and takes effect as soon as the fight starts, with a DC of 47 and bypasses all immunity? Other than pre-buffing to stack your Fort Save through the roof, there's just no counter-play possible. You either get your Fort Save to 40+ before the fight, or you don't even get to play at all. Insanely godawful design.