Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Stone's other abilities are pure shite

Greater Trip (Stone Stability) at the cost of a Hex isn't shite. Stoneskin gives her a usable spell at 5 if you don't respec her as STR-based, which granted is a better fit with the archetype. Stoneskin, Communal is also useful with the infinite Diamond Dust the ship DLC adds to the game.

 

[Lambach]

And yes shaving off 6 AC no save, no SR is something that's worth doing in situations where Mass True Strike would also be good.

Depends on your Party. Lowering the target's AC from 78 to 72 doesn't do diddly squat if your highest ABs in the Party are about 50.

True Strike is fine if you've got a big Vital Strike to land or whatever, but if you want it there are all kinds of ways to get it already and it isn't necessary with Guarded Hearth/Brilliant Energy/Mark of Justice/etc already available.

Nothing is necessary, there are many ways to tackle almost every encounter. But Offensive Hexes just generally tend to be a sub-par option most of the time (on higher difficulties).

With Cam/Ember you're also getting a full caster while with Sensei you're getting a Monk without Flurry and a modest Competence bonus that gets outclassed by Hearth when you need it.

That's besides the point, I was referring specifically to Hexes vs Sensei abilities. Offensive Hexes just don't scale all that well when the number bloat starts hitting.

 

[Yosharian]

You have to spend your second spirit choice on Stone in order to get it. Which nobody wants to do, because Stone's other abilities are pure shite.

If I understand the description correctly, it seems worth it, tho, because it looks totally busted at later levels.

Get one Full Attack off with a Hasted lvl 16 Regill and that's a -48 AC penalty for 3 Rounds afterwards. Fucking devastating against powerful single targets, assuming that's how it works.

lmao no dude. it's just -6 AC. still very good, especially when you pair it with Evil Eye.

It can also be cast on any target regardless of immunities, which is very important if you're using Jinx, like I was

 

[LannTheStupid]

Metal Curse works. For metals, but not for Kinetic Metal Blast.

Trip appears too late, and Camellia is starved for feats anyway.

My rotation for tough single targets is Evil Eye versus Saves, Phantasmal Killer from Nenio, if the enemy survives then Evil Eye AC - this one tends to stick because of debuffed saves - and then Metal Curse.

It is not a silver bullet, and it is not reliable enough for Hard Last Azlanti (I guess) - but for simple Hard it works.

 

[Desiderius]

Metal Curse works. For metals, but not for Kinetic Metal Blast.

Trip appears too late, and Camellia is starved for feats anyway.

My rotation for tough single targets is Evil Eye versus Saves, Phantasmal Killer from Nenio, if the enemy survives then Evil Eye AC - this one tends to stick because of debuffed saves - and then Metal Curse.

It is not a silver bullet, and it is not reliable enough for Hard Last Azlanti (I guess) - but for simple Hard it works.

The point is that Stone Stability gives her all the Trip Feats (and bypasses the usual Combat Expertise prereq) for one Hex. If you're saying that she's Hex starved maybe, but lvl 10 is hardly late.

I hate her companion quest so it's moot for me but Greater Trip for one Feat is a great deal for a CMB/AoO-focused party. Pair with Drovier on Lann for Aspect of Wolf (Swift Trip) Aura and go off, especially if you fix her to make her STR-based.

 

[Desiderius]

And yes shaving off 6 AC no save, no SR is something that's worth doing in situations where Mass True Strike would also be good.

Depends on your Party. Lowering the target's AC from 78 to 72 doesn't do diddly squat if your highest ABs in the Party are about 50.

True Strike is fine if you've got a big Vital Strike to land or whatever, but if you want it there are all kinds of ways to get it already and it isn't necessary with Guarded Hearth/Brilliant Energy/Mark of Justice/etc already available.

Nothing is necessary, there are many ways to tackle almost every encounter. But Offensive Hexes just generally tend to be a sub-par option most of the time (on higher difficulties).

With Cam/Ember you're also getting a full caster while with Sensei you're getting a Monk without Flurry and a modest Competence bonus that gets outclassed by Hearth when you need it.

That's besides the point, I was referring specifically to Hexes vs Sensei abilities. Offensive Hexes just don't scale all that well when the number bloat starts hitting.

If your highest AB is 50 (and you have no other way to lower/bypass AC on top of Hexes) you're playing the wrong difficulty. And here we get back to the "subpar" again. It's not a one-dimensional game. One character providing -6 AC on top of being able to cast (full caster) spells while Cackling/Chanting is fine value. If you had six characters doing that his AC would be 42 and your summons could take him out.

Offensive Hexes bypass SR, do something on made save, are infinite use, and can be maintained with a move action (keeping Standard Action free). They're fine. Note: I'll be using them for the first time is about four playthroughs when Shifter DLC comes out and I go all Chaos. As you note there are several ways to get there. Few if any "subpar."

The irony is that I was the one talking up Sensei in PK when people thought it sucked. It's just not a great fit for this setting, especially if you're having to merc to get it.

Bottom line is that if you restrict yourself to companions you'll have the time/energy to actually read/learn/practice their abilities to the point you can win on any difficulty. Ruleset is simply too big to do that with all the available classes, so people get in a rut on the few they're familiar with (or were memed into) instead of learning the new ones offered by a new game, which is fun.

 

[Haplo]

Something seems wrong here...

Spoiler

 

[Desiderius]

Visiting Iz:



The insert is a shot from Seelah's Touch defense on a random fight. I was curious whether the Ray Shield Feat (adds Shield AC to Touch AC - in this case +4 Tower) would stack with Shield Focus Mythic (which does same thing but worded slightly differently) and it turns out that it does. It's not something that comes up often enough for me to usually worry about but thought it would be interesting to test.

The Lann thing is an item you can put in your belt if you've been friendly to Lann. Will check if it stacks with Heroism, Greater on the saves. Also trying to stack about as much initiative as possible.



Here it pays off. Been wanting to try out the Mythic Suppression ability, but was skeptical it would work here since it says some things are immune. Not Deskari! His AC went from 75 to 65 and his AB from 99 I think down to 72.



That used Standard Action, so activated Aeon stuff at Swift and Studied at Move, then Charged with Bismuth. Somewhere along the way he picked up Pounce.



Hoping to fight Nocti at some point with this Fort Save. Seen it all Before is alternative Ranger Capstone from mod which gives you Favored Enemy bonuses on Saves.



She's not wearing any of the Fire Equipment so not a ton of damage on Intensified Hellfire with Devouring Lust Rod, but not too bad. You can see poor Seelah got Disarmed when Radiance upgraded at beginning of fight.



Even Demythified Deskari is a tough nut to Intimidate. But he was already Shaken from Frightful so this hit Shattered his Defenses. TTT is like tabletop where it takes a hit to turn Shatter on, but Reg also has Mythic Shatter which makes opponent flat-footed for everybody for a round.



Sos had to burn his turn re-applying Touch of Good to MC along with Guarded Hearth (Swift Zealot), then she finished him off with 74 AB to spare on Unfair Deskari. Looks like something's bugged with Starlight buff maybe causing her Concealment misses (True Seeing, Mass is up and nobody else is rolling for concealment)?

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I don't care, I want an alchemist. Also, my Sensei merc has been indispensible. Mass Restoration, Barkskin, and True Strike are great early/mid game.

That isn't what indispensable means. Cam has Barkskins, Ember/Daeran/Sos have Death Ward (or Resto after the fact), and True Strike is one attack. Mass True Strike is nice if you have CMs or proc on hit or whatever, but Sensei doesn't get Mass version until later anyway. You're giving up ability to Hex etc to get that.

Honestly, you exaggerate the difficulty of these games. I've been cruising through Unfair, just finished Chapter 2, and I have yet to encounter any bosses or fights I couldn't beat. On top of that, I did Drezen with my Sensei merc, Lann, my Demonslayer/archer MC, tank Seelah, Regill, and Nenio, which I suspect you'll see as grossly sub-optimal. No Sosiel + Guarded Hearth and no Hexers at all, and it was totally fine. I even got the reward for clearing it early (which maybe isn't hard to do, I don't know, but I didn't expect it as I thought I took too long).

Anyhow, I still want my Alchemist Merc and shall purchase one once I find where the guy who sells them moved to in Drezen. Cope.

 

[Desiderius]

I... just posted a shot of beating Unfair difficulty boss by 74 AB. That isn't exaggerating the difficulty. I'm saying you don't need to force mercs of certain classes. You can play the companions and enjoy learning the new ones. That they end up being better than those mercs is just gravy.

 

[Lambach]

I'm saying you don't need to force mercs of certain classes.

Lemme see if I can simplify this for you: I don't need to call you a smoothbrain drooling autist, but I'm still going to do it because I enjoy it. Just like I didn't need to bin Camellia for a Brown-Fur Transmuter Merc, but I wanted to, because a min-maxed, fully optimized caster like that just feels better to play with compared to a Party member with mediocre melee abilities, a mediocre Spell List and those gay Hexes you can't stop shoving up your ass that cease being useful after level 6 or so.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm saying you don't need to force mercs of certain classes.

Lemme see if I can simplify this for you: I don't need to call you a smoothbrain drooling autist, but I'm still going to do it because I enjoy it. Just like I didn't need to bin Camellia for a Brown-Fur Transmuter Merc, but I wanted to, because a min-maxed, fully optimized caster like that just feels better to play with compared to a Party member with mediocre melee abilities, a mediocre Spell List and those gay Hexes you can't stop shoving up your ass that cease being useful after level 6 or so.

That... isn't minmaxxing. If you want to play BFT for fun that's fine, but minmaxxing is a different thing. You're just sucking.

Your BFT has to cast six spells and burn six Arcane Pool just to get 2 of that 6 (AB - AC) benefit that Hampering Hex gets in one Standard Action (mods add Mythic to make Hexes Swift). And Hexes are only one third of Cam’s action econ. Cam sux for you because you suck (you fall for memes and don’t read your own spells and abilities).

You. Are. Retarded.



Cam's companion quest makes her unplayable and her custom archetype is a bad fit for DEX-based (a fine thing to fix with Respec mod), but it's not the case that BFT is straight-up better. I played BFT in Alpha and ironically it's about the same solid but unremarkable archetype that Cam's is, it just gets there in a different way and a lot more clicks. Arcanist missing Counterspell is a big downside, as is lack of item support. Your point about Shaman being mediocre at too many things instead of good at one thing is generally a good one (same problem with EK) but the class has enough bells and whistles (like Bane Enemy on top of Weapon Enchants + Divine Power for Melee, Nature's Ally Summons > Wiz/Cleric Summons + utility for casting) along with unlocking Second Spirit Mythic to make up for it, then you can use the Swift Hex Mythic mod to get all the way there if you like the archetype.

 

[aloeh]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

 

[Yosharian]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

Why do you want to play Unfair? It's trash. Just play Hard.

 

[Desiderius]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

Yes

If you have to ask Unfair isn't the difficulty for you (yet).

Why do you want to play Unfair? It's trash. Just play Hard.

The ultimate value of Unfair tinman once you've learned the game is to make defensive abilities competitive with offensive ones so trade-offs and tactics get more interesting. It even made me appreciate tanking and dips!

 

[aloeh]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

Yes

If you have to ask Unfair isn't the difficulty for you (yet).

Why do you want to play Unfair? It's trash. Just play Hard.

The ultimate value of Unfair tinman once you've learned the game is to make defensive abilities competitive with offensive ones so trade-offs and tactics get more interesting. It even made me appreciate tanking and dips!

It's because every time I look for builds and comments about unfair, there always mounts to tank damage.

I played at launch, made azata and angel run, didn't touch in the game so far. Didn't play the dlcs too.

 

[Yosharian]

Mounts are just the easiest way to play martials because they are tanky as fuck and give the rider free move + full attack

They aren't necessary but they do make the game super easy

 

[Desiderius]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

Yes

If you have to ask Unfair isn't the difficulty for you (yet).

Why do you want to play Unfair? It's trash. Just play Hard.

The ultimate value of Unfair tinman once you've learned the game is to make defensive abilities competitive with offensive ones so trade-offs and tactics get more interesting. It even made me appreciate tanking and dips!

It's because every time I look for builds and comments about unfair, there always mounts to tank damage.

I played at launch, made azata and angel run, didn't touch in the game so far. Didn't play the dlcs too.

Unfair is there for when you get too good for Hard. You get good by playing the game and trying things out for yourself to see what works. Try something on Core then if its blowing that out kick it up.

To answer your question yes you can win Unfair without mounts. At this point I think I could almost solo it with tank Seelah (and buffing support) but that's unnecessary.

 

[Desiderius]

Martials do fine without them (and I've modded out the full attack after move cheese anyway - can still get it via Feat chain), but I like them to get Ranged into Snap Shot range and to position casters (Daeran w/ Second Mystery Nature).

Also using the tabletop companion values mod to make them somewhat less absurd (now level like P:K) pets but even when they were vanilla they were less tanky than Seelah and Reg. Usually tanky enough.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Cam's companion quest makes her unplayable

Wut?

 

[Desiderius]

Cam's companion quest makes her unplayable

Wut?

I'm not murdering a room full of innocent people, game or not. It's pretty disgusting before then too. Fanfic/writer resentment of customer preferences. "Fine, you want chainmail bikinis - here! (you should have picked meeee!)"

 

[LannTheStupid]

Cam's companion quest makes her unplayable

Wut?

I'm not murdering a room full of innocent people, game or not. It's pretty disgusting before then too. Fanfic/writer resentment of customer preferences. "Fine, you want chainmail bikinis - here! (you should have picked meeee!)"

They are soldiers. The life of a soldier is forfeit from the moment he is conscripted or volunteered into the army. The commanding officer can decide to exchange a unit for tactical or strategic advantage, and he will be in his right.

My demonic main hero considers the lives of two squads of soldiers - or officers - way cheaper than good mood of an extremely helpful Mythic companion, who is also very hot.

The position of a commander can be challenged by his superior, who is queen Galfrey. And, naturally, she relieves him of duty. It does not end well for her, but it's a different story.

 

[aloeh]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

Yes

If you have to ask Unfair isn't the difficulty for you (yet).

Why do you want to play Unfair? It's trash. Just play Hard.

The ultimate value of Unfair tinman once you've learned the game is to make defensive abilities competitive with offensive ones so trade-offs and tactics get more interesting. It even made me appreciate tanking and dips!

It's because every time I look for builds and comments about unfair, there always mounts to tank damage.

I played at launch, made azata and angel run, didn't touch in the game so far. Didn't play the dlcs too.

Unfair is there for when you get too good for Hard. You get good by playing the game and trying things out for yourself to see what works. Try something on Core then if its blowing that out kick it up.

To answer your question yes you can win Unfair without mounts. At this point I think I could almost solo it with tank Seelah (and buffing support) but that's unnecessary.

The azata run was on core, the angel run was on hard. Now I want do unfair run, don't even know what mythic path or class I want to do. But the pet tank or charge gimmick is a no.

 

[Yosharian]

I hate animal companions and mounts, there is a build and party composition to play in unfair viable?

Yes

If you have to ask Unfair isn't the difficulty for you (yet).

Why do you want to play Unfair? It's trash. Just play Hard.

The ultimate value of Unfair tinman once you've learned the game is to make defensive abilities competitive with offensive ones so trade-offs and tactics get more interesting. It even made me appreciate tanking and dips!

It's because every time I look for builds and comments about unfair, there always mounts to tank damage.

I played at launch, made azata and angel run, didn't touch in the game so far. Didn't play the dlcs too.

Unfair is there for when you get too good for Hard. You get good by playing the game and trying things out for yourself to see what works. Try something on Core then if its blowing that out kick it up.

To answer your question yes you can win Unfair without mounts. At this point I think I could almost solo it with tank Seelah (and buffing support) but that's unnecessary.

The azata run was on core, the angel run was on hard. Now I want do unfair run, don't even know what mythic path or class I want to do. But the pet tank or charge gimmick is a no.

Use whatever Desiderius recommends then post the result here for our amusement

 

[Yosharian]

All jokes aside there are many builds that can defeat unfair without mounts, I would imagine some sort of spellcaster would be the easiest

Demon is probably the best best from the ones you haven't played

I've been contemplating how to convert Pyrflie's sorc blaster into a Demon build

Or at least I was when I was still interested in this game