Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Zboj Lamignat]

I'd say "Your First Big Enemy
Playing on Core difficulty or above, defeat the water elemental in the Prologue." at 8.1% is pretty useful.

Is it though?

Actually, while all the reasons you state obviously have an impact as well, I'm 101% sure most people don't have the difficulty-related achievements because "early game xp sharing on/off" is the first pathfinder meme every new player learns. And the higher the difficulty, the faster the learning curve is.

Besides that, it's just roguey and his "achievement stats matter!!" posts. Similarly to Kingmaker, Wrath is a game where you can have hundreds of hours logged while not going far into the main campaign, let alone finishing it. The only stat that matters is that the game has an active player base. And a pretty big one at that.

 

[Reinhardt]

The issue with Crusader mode is

that every unit looks like . literally.

 

[Desiderius]

The Crusade is not a minigame in Wrath of the Righteous which is about a CRUSADE.

It's not core gameplay. You don't have to deal with it at all in acts 1 and 4.

How much did Witcher sell? Gwent is gated content and the Gwent game you have to win is way harder than anything in Wrath CruFaceroll.

Gwent is an optional sidequest. This is a small sampling, but 70% of gamefaqers say Wrath is hard, 30% say it's the right amount of difficulty, absolutely no one says it's easy.

Lol it's not optional. To advance the plot you have to win some pretty tough Gwent games (don't ask me where it's been awhile) and good luck if you haven't kept up your deck. Likewise with the Brawling minigame.

Point being hard games (or at least games with hard gates) sell. Your (and Soyer's) conceited take doesn't account for why that would be. I ride your sorry* asses because I know you can do better; you want to nerf games into oblivion (or maintain/widen a gaming caste system) because you don't think your own customer base can. We are not the same.

As with P:K it's bullshit to say it isn't core when you haven't even gotten to it yet. As with unexpectedly taking away a core character to shock the player into recognizing how valuable her (usually underappreciated) class was in P:K I think taking away the KM while having to go out of pocket to chase Amiri/Tristian was designed to have the same effect. Certainly achieved it for me as I was sorely missing it at that point, where I was looking forward to finally cashing in the region upgrades at only one week a pop instead of two.

Alas it ended up being anti-climactic as KM was unfinished, but I was *really* missing it by the time we got back. The Crusade has deeper problems as well described by InD_ImaginE so yeah taking it away didn't work as well there, but that's the design and it's generally an effective one.

* - of course on most issues you're anything but sorry. You (and Soyer) get this one wrong it won't matter.

 

[Fedora Master]

I can't believe you autists are still beating this dead horse.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I can't believe you autists are still beating this dead horse.

I can't believe you're autistic enough to basically copy and paste this comment into multiple threads for games you dislike. Get a life.

 

[NJClaw]

I don't have the strength to read the 300 pages I missed, so... what's the general consensus on this game's DLCs? How do they compare to Varnhold's Lot?

 

[skaraher]

I don't have the strength to read the 300 pages I missed, so... what's the general consensus on this game's DLCs? How do they compare to Varnhold's Lot?

Judging from reaction on chan and reddit, general consensus on both sides of the community is to play Treasure of Midnight (Megadungeon like Tenebrous depth) and ignore the rest.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I don't have the strength to read the 300 pages I missed, so... what's the general consensus on this game's DLCs? How do they compare to Varnhold's Lot?

DLC1 is post campaign. You are stuck with max level with only progression in item. Realistically you buy this to enjoy Mythic Level 10 that you only get in the last 30 min of main campaign. The story is bad in the sense that there is nothing much happening. Taking note from main campaign, instead of facing 5 same enemies over and over you will be facing 2 - 3 enemies over and over instead.

DLC2 is Low Level campaign (level 1 - 4, you get to level 5 like the last 5 min) with Cliffhanger and will continue on DLC 5/6 I forgot. Decent fun and nice idea but terrible execution. It's pretty OK though all things considered.

DLC3 is the roguelike mode like in KM but done much better than in KM. Actually a fun way to spend time playing if you are tired of playing main campaign.

DLC4 I haven't played but Shifter class is pretty busted in combat.

 

[Ghulgothas]

I don't have the strength to read the 300 pages I missed, so... what's the general consensus on this game's DLCs? How do they compare to Varnhold's Lot?

Inevitable Excess is great if you wanted to play as Mythic 10 for longer than 30 minutes. Beware of puzzles and masochism.
Through the Ashes is one-half of a full Varnhold's Lot (sequel pending).
Treasure of the Midnight Isles is a better version of Beneath the Stolen Lands
The Last Sarkorians is both very gay, and very powerful.
Through the Ashes Part 2 will be here one day, eventually.
The ME-Citadel Equivalent will probably be exactly what they advertise it as.

 

[LannTheStupid]

the difficulty options consist of hiring a mage general for easy mode tbh

which is even better since that thread seems consisted of people who think they can't merge soldiers into a single army or can't use their ridiculously excessive gold to strengthen the crusade. none of which they'd have to learn if they just hired setsuna shy

"Difficulty is decreased if you make good decisions" is an RPG staple, but the thing about below-average/average players is that they're incapable of making good decisions unless the game outright tells them (and sometimes not even then).

But why does it matter? And why should the statistics of the achievements matter?

They sold - if you believe Owlcat - at least 1 million copies of Wrath. It seems they made profit both on Kingmaker and on Wrath. Those 92% who achieved nothing already gave their money to Owlcat. So why is it a bad thing?

Also, I will add that Nival - the studio where Owlcat higher-ups hail from - is not a novice in making niche difficult games. Before Kingmaker my favourite game from them was Silent Storm. On the hardest difficulty the game was quite challenging; I think I have not finished it on that level.

However, the game was not very expensive. They marketed it across Russian speakers of the former Soviet Union, who had shared history of WW-2. They even tapped into "that narrative", where one of the Axis soldiers was from Lithuania - which was a respublic in the Soviet Union after 1940. The game was not very popular in the West, but was profitable for Nival.

So why do you think broader appeal is so important for Wrath?

 

[Roguey]

But why does it matter? And why should the statistics of the achievements matter?

They sold - if you believe Owlcat - at least 1 million copies of Wrath. It seems they made profit both on Kingmaker and on Wrath. Those 92% who achieved nothing already gave their money to Owlcat. So why is it a bad thing?

Also, I will add that Nival - the studio where Owlcat higher-ups hail from - is not a novice in making niche difficult games. Before Kingmaker my favourite game from them was Silent Storm. On the hardest difficulty the game was quite challenging; I think I have not finished it on that level.

However, the game was not very expensive. They marketed it across Russian speakers of the former Soviet Union, who had shared history of WW-2. They even tapped into "that narrative", where one of the Axis soldiers was from Lithuania - which was a respublic in the Soviet Union after 1940. The game was not very popular in the West, but was profitable for Nival.

So why do you think broader appeal is so important for Wrath?

This is the result of the decisions they already made, ones that Desiderius disagrees with. It's unsurprising to me that the tenth most downloaded mod at Nexus is the one that lets you autowin all crusade battles (and disables random encounters and removes the corruption mechanic). Their assessment of the capabilities of their core audience seem to be largely correct though.

 

[LannTheStupid]

This is the result of the decisions they already made, ones that Desiderius disagrees with. It's unsurprising to me that the tenth most downloaded mod at Nexus is the one that lets you autowin all crusade battles (and disables random encounters and removes the corruption mechanic). Their assessment of the capabilities of their core audience seem to be largely correct though.

Sorry, but I still do not understand your main thesis (you can consult my nickname if you have any doubts).

Owlcat have enough sales to make profit. Which allows them to make another game with another complex RPG system. Moreover - with another strategic layer. Which is supposed to be space ship combat, so if Rogue Trader is successful I hope Josh Sawyer will hang himself on a bike chain.

They are not an AAA studio and (probably) will never be. They seem to know not only who their core audience are, but also its size. They more or less cater to them - to us. They do not protect the game executable, so the game is open for modding.

For me all of this sounds like a reasonable marketing strategy. Where am I wrong?

 

[Turn_BASED]

FYI Owlcat fucked up their pricing for the steam sale, you can get the game for next to nothing: https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/21936/Pathfinder_Wrath_of_the_Righteous__Commander_Edition/

 

[ga♥]

DLC3 is the roguelike mode like in KM but done much better than in KM.

Fake news.
Ghulgothas, you too.
Care to explain in which way is it better? Because it looks and feels half baked.

 

[Desiderius]

This is the result of the decisions they already made, ones that Desiderius disagrees with. It's unsurprising to me that the tenth most downloaded mod at Nexus is the one that lets you autowin all crusade battles (and disables random encounters and removes the corruption mechanic). Their assessment of the capabilities of their core audience seem to be largely correct though.

Tenth most lol. On a mod platform many of the best modders have abandoned. And harder games sold even more. A lot more.

You remind me of the shitty teachers (most weren’t) I used to work with who would constantly whine and moan how stupid and unmotivated their students were so they would dumb down their lessons, the kids would get even more unmotivated, et, etc. It's a vicious cycle. Meanwhile one of my favorite colleagues would have his slow* class doing calculus at the end of the year to pwn the Roguey/Soyer gang who hadn't gotten to it yet.

I started out like the former (most do - God did I suck) but was lucky to have good mentors who helped me get to the latter, which was a lot more fun/rewarding for both teacher and student. When I was working for GE we had guys with eighth-grade educations doing advanced statistics (Deming stuff). People learn what they want/need to. We're learning machines.

You've put yourself in (and earned) a position of authority when it comes to game design. Don't blow it on Soyerist solipsism.

* - slow (i.e. retarded) doesn't mean stationary. Tortoise wins the race, but only if he's motivated to run.

 

[Desiderius]

DLC3 is the roguelike mode like in KM but done much better than in KM.

Fake news.
Ghulgothas, you too.
Care to explain in which way is it better? Because it looks and feels half baked.

Because Depths was quarter-baked pretty much. The talent has been working on RT and the talent is thin (if spectacular).

 

[ga♥]

DLC3 is the roguelike mode like in KM but done much better than in KM.

Fake news.
Ghulgothas, you too.
Care to explain in which way is it better? Because it looks and feels half baked.

Because Depths was quarter-baked pretty much. The talent has been working on RT and the talent is thin (if spectacular).

Depths half baked because? Considering a comparison at least they provided a interesting background and story for every miniboss you encounter in Beneath instead of a random unique npc with a unique name and nothing for it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I like the aesthetics of the Islands more. They are different.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I'm nearing late leveling and can count on one hand how many feats I have left for most characters. Is Wrath still all about putting shatter defenses on your melee and archer characters? All the guides for Kingmaker acted as if it was essential, but I see fewer builds doing it in Wrath.

 

[ga♥]

I'm nearing late leveling and can count on one hand how many feats I have left for most characters. Is Wrath still all about putting shatter defenses on your melee and archer characters? All the guides for Kingmaker acted as if it was essential, but I see fewer builds doing it in Wrath.

It is much more useful in Wrath.
I never used shatter in kingmaker, even on unfair, you can stack enough AB to hit everything eventually, while in wrath on a lower difficulty everyone gets it ASAP.

 

[Roguey]

Sorry, but I still do not understand your main thesis (you can consult my nickname if you have any doubts).

I went and tested it and confirmed that yeah, setting the difficulty to story mode doesn't affect crusade battle difficulty at all. Given that there are no options to tune these battles to your own preferences/level of skill, it was the right call for Owlcat to tune the crusade battles so that the largest number of people in their core audience (this includes people who play on story and casual and what they consider "normal" which enables quite a number of things in the player's favor) could beat them, not get brick-walled by them.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I went and tested it and confirmed that yeah, setting the difficulty to story mode doesn't affect crusade battle difficulty at all.

Yes, because there is a separate difficulty setting for "Crusade management" which, naturally, includes battles. This whole mini-HoM&M is "Crusade management".

Spoiler

Given that there are no options to tune these battles to your own preferences/level of skill

Because this is the part of "Crusade management" difficulty, which is independent from the overall game difficulty and has three levels:

Spoiler

Unless what you are saying is "none of the difficulty settings affect strategic layer battles". Which would be strange.

Also, the Kingdom management was not a brick wall. It was possible to switch it off, and I believe there were difficulty settings, too. They affected the DC of the problems for the advisors.

 

[Roguey]

I went and tested it and confirmed that yeah, setting the difficulty to story mode doesn't affect crusade battle difficulty at all.

Yes, because there is a separate difficulty setting for "Crusade management" which, naturally, includes battles. This whole mini-HoM&M is "Crusade management".

Spoiler

View attachment 34421

Given that there are no options to tune these battles to your own preferences/level of skill

Because this is the part of "Crusade management" difficulty, which is independent from the overall game difficulty and has three levels:

Spoiler

View attachment 34422

Unless what you are saying is "none of the difficulty settings affect strategic layer battles". Which would be strange.

Also, the Kingdom management was not a brick wall. It was possible to switch it off, and I believe there were difficulty settings, too. They affected the DC of the problems for the advisors.

That is correct, they don't. I posted what it does before:

• "Story" difficulty multiplies by 3 the amount of resources gained and the number of recruits available for hire, and provides 3 additional free searches for mercenaries per week. Crusade morale cannot fall below -50.
• "Casual" difficulty multiplies by 2 the amount of resources gained and the number of recruits available for hire, and provides 1 additional free search for mercenaries per week.

This certainly makes things easier yes, but it doesn't make the battles click-to-win simple (for that you either need to wait and keep building up an army until its number is greater than the army or fotress you want to beat so you can make them flee or download a mod).

 

[LannTheStupid]

So what? There is an opt-out from the strategic layer, which removes all the bonuses. As it was in Kingmaker. And there are mods, too.

I still fail to understand your point.

Owlcat are not making Sekiro or Cuphead. There are too many skills involved in a CRPG to force difficulty on players. So they let a player change the level of the challenge and have the ability to opt out altogether, losing all the benefits, naturally.

This is a good and sound design.

I may also add that the ultimate opt-out is refunding the game - which is available as well.

 

[Roguey]

So what? There is an opt-out from the strategic layer, which removes all the bonuses. As it was in Kingmaker. And there are mods, too.

I still fail to understand your point.

Owlcat are not making Sekiro or Cuphead. There are too many skills involved in a CRPG to force difficulty on players. So they let a player change the level of the challenge and the ability to opt out altogether - losing all the benefits, naturally.

This is a good and sound design.

I may also add that the ultimate opt-out is refunding the game - which is available as well.

No one likes setting crusade to auto-mode because it removes the ability to make choices that affect the story (which is the point of playing on story mode) and the game takes over fortresses at its own speed (not necessarily the speed one would prefer).