Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Xamenos]

Xamenos you do realize why Kingmaker is "done" and no development goes into it? WotR is not in the same situation, so I hope they will continue improving the game.

The third Season Pass, though, might be too much.

WotR is not in the same situation? It still has issues?

 

[LannTheStupid]

Xamenos you do realize why Kingmaker is "done" and no development goes into it? WotR is not in the same situation, so I hope they will continue improving the game.

The third Season Pass, though, might be too much.

WotR is not in the same situation? It still has issues?

It is not in the same situation because Owlcat Games does not have issues with Wrath.

The reason they stopped any support for Kingmaker is that when Owlcat became independent, they lost the rights and the revenue from Kingmaker. That is why they do not spend any more resources on patching the game. On the other hand, they still have full control over WotR, so they are still improving the game and getting income from it.

 

[Haplo]

No, neither DLCs nor patching are done.
That said, game's in a pretty good shape and it's not like you need all DLC content.

Data mining suggests new archetypes coming... but it's not like the game is lacking.

I hope one of the patches give HKS Divine Casting scaling.
I mean, it explicitly says in the fluff that clerics join HKS orders, so them not retaining divine caster levels is kind of silly and limits your build options.

I think they already do?

Problem is not progressing other Divine powers, such as Domains.

 

[Desiderius]

Insistent Summons, Demon mythic - can you do the 90 DC Intimidate check? How much XP would that get you?

Yes, by save-scumming. You need to go for the option with the Will saving throw. Every save can be successful on 20 or fail on 1, no matter the values; skill checks, on the other hand, are just comparing numbers. I think I had enough patience up to about 70 DC (or was it 50?) and got around 12k EXP.

Intimidate is a skill check (can't be critted), not a save.

Isn't this a Will Save?

Highest I've gotten on a save is 68 I think.



Do you get EXP from passing Saves in dialogue?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

No, neither DLCs nor patching are done.
That said, game's in a pretty good shape and it's not like you need all DLC content.

Data mining suggests new archetypes coming... but it's not like the game is lacking.

I hope one of the patches give HKS Divine Casting scaling.
I mean, it explicitly says in the fluff that clerics join HKS orders, so them not retaining divine caster levels is kind of silly and limits your build options.

I think they already do?

Problem is not progressing other Divine powers, such as Domains.

Doesn't the HKS lack Catchesis, which allows the character to continue divine spell progression?

 

[Parabalus]

Insistent Summons, Demon mythic - can you do the 90 DC Intimidate check? How much XP would that get you?

Yes, by save-scumming. You need to go for the option with the Will saving throw. Every save can be successful on 20 or fail on 1, no matter the values; skill checks, on the other hand, are just comparing numbers. I think I had enough patience up to about 70 DC (or was it 50?) and got around 12k EXP.

Intimidate is a skill check (can't be critted), not a save.

Isn't this a Will Save?

Highest I've gotten on a save is 68 I think.

View attachment 36638

Do you get EXP from passing Saves in dialogue?

There's both, Will save gives no XP, intimidate gives XP.

 

[Desiderius]

Intimidate check of 90 would be a tall order, but would probably give enough EXP to hit 20 immediately. With DLC now you hit 20 pretty early in any case.

 

[Desiderius]

No, neither DLCs nor patching are done.
That said, game's in a pretty good shape and it's not like you need all DLC content.

Data mining suggests new archetypes coming... but it's not like the game is lacking.

I hope one of the patches give HKS Divine Casting scaling.
I mean, it explicitly says in the fluff that clerics join HKS orders, so them not retaining divine caster levels is kind of silly and limits your build options.

I think they already do?

Problem is not progressing other Divine powers, such as Domains.

Doesn't the HKS lack Catchesis, which allows the character to continue divine spell progression?

Don’t know about that but it’s kind of annoying that Cleric wastes Arcane Armor Mastery. Would be nice to have an alternate choice there for Cleric like Martial Prof (for Flails) or something.

 

[Average Manatee]

Is Fortification supposed to negate effects of critical hits like follow up attacks from outflank?

PF rules say:

This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. The chance is 25% for light fortification, 50% for moderate fortification, and 75% for heavy fortification.

Outflank says

Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.

Reading the rules with my rules lawyer glasses on, you still scored the crit even if it is negated and should therefore be triggering Outflank procs. Arguably the same should be the case for weapons with on-crit effects (though they reference confirming a critical hit, but that is part of scoring a crit so it's before negation), though on-crit effects that cause direct damage might be argued to be part of the negation.

From what I can tell in-game fortification seems to be completely stopping crits and any effects based on crits.

 

[Haplo]

No, neither DLCs nor patching are done.
That said, game's in a pretty good shape and it's not like you need all DLC content.

Data mining suggests new archetypes coming... but it's not like the game is lacking.

I hope one of the patches give HKS Divine Casting scaling.
I mean, it explicitly says in the fluff that clerics join HKS orders, so them not retaining divine caster levels is kind of silly and limits your build options.

I think they already do?

Problem is not progressing other Divine powers, such as Domains.

Doesn't the HKS lack Catchesis, which allows the character to continue divine spell progression?

It lacks Catechesis, but it's not needed for Divine Spell progression AFAIK.

 

[Average Manatee]

Was hard to find info on fortification vs. crits but this: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rr0z?Can-a-Critical-Hit-Be-Confirmed-on-a-Creature links me to http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRuleBook/magicItems/weapons.html which says:

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon special abilities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect also functions against creatures not normally subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon's regular damage.

Which would seem to imply that fortification only prevents the multiplication of critical damage, all other effects should still trigger.

On the other hand, crits are already powerful enough I guess. But this makes me hate those stupid air elementals with like 70 AC vs your level 12 characters in midnight isles even more.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Was hard to find info on fortification vs. crits but this: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rr0z?Can-a-Critical-Hit-Be-Confirmed-on-a-Creature links me to http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRuleBook/magicItems/weapons.html which says:

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon special abilities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect also functions against creatures not normally subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon's regular damage.

Which would seem to imply that fortification only prevents the multiplication of critical damage, all other effects should still trigger.

On the other hand, crits are already powerful enough I guess. But this makes me hate those stupid air elementals with like 70 AC vs your level 12 characters in midnight isles even more.

The fire elemental on the Midnight Isles failed the Fortitude save against Nenio's Baleful Polymorph. The party was hitting a dog on Nat 20 for several minutes IRL, but killed him.

 

[Desiderius]

70 AC vs your level 12 characters

Don't go there at lvl 12. Bless Weapon crit fishing doesn't care about AC in any event if you find yourself in such a situation. Good idea to have Improved Crit or Divine Weapon Bond/Weapon Enchant Keen with some advantage effects to help this along.

Elementals are also not immune to Fear/Mind-affecting.

 

[Average Manatee]

Don't go there at lvl 12. Bless Weapon crit fishing doesn't care about AC in any event if you find yourself in such a situation.

I don't think Bless Weapon does anything in this situation? Nat 20 is an auto hit either way, Bless Weapon just automatically confirms the critical but fortification means the crit does no extra damage (or any other positive effect) anyway.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Don't go there at lvl 12. Bless Weapon crit fishing doesn't care about AC in any event if you find yourself in such a situation.

I don't think Bless Weapon does anything in this situation? Nat 20 is an auto hit either way, Bless Weapon just automatically confirms the critical but fortification means the crit does no extra damage (or any other positive effect) anyway.

If we are talking about the AC that no one in the party can overcome, then a weapon with a wide crit range generates crits, say, from 15 to 20; Bless Weapon (if applicable) autoconfirms it; and you have at least some damage. Otherwise, everyone misses, and the target receives no damage at all.

At least, that's how I understood Mr. Desiderius .

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

No, neither DLCs nor patching are done.
That said, game's in a pretty good shape and it's not like you need all DLC content.

Data mining suggests new archetypes coming... but it's not like the game is lacking.

I hope one of the patches give HKS Divine Casting scaling.
I mean, it explicitly says in the fluff that clerics join HKS orders, so them not retaining divine caster levels is kind of silly and limits your build options.

I think they already do?

Problem is not progressing other Divine powers, such as Domains.

Doesn't the HKS lack Catchesis, which allows the character to continue divine spell progression?

It lacks Catechesis, but it's not needed for Divine Spell progression AFAIK.

Hm, maybe.
After rereading the entry to HKS Spellcasting, it occurred to me that it could apply to both Divine and Arcane casters. I'm still used to thinking of Arcane Casting as "Spellcasting" and Divine Casting as "Miracles". Blame Dark Souls for that.
It is indeed Domains that are lacking (which is what Catechisis does cover), which is still certainly a pity.
Time to respect my inquisitor then I guess. Right now he's a Hellknight because I thought I wouldn't be able to progress divine casting, but if I can as a HKS I might as well go that route. Its not as if I'm progressing Domains with my current build.

 

[Average Manatee]

If we are talking about the AC that no one in the party can overcome, then a weapon with a wide crit range generates crits, say, from 15 to 20; Bless Weapon (if applicable) autoconfirms it; and you have at least some damage. Otherwise, everyone misses, and the target receives no damage at all.

At least, that's how I understood Mr. Desiderius .

AFAIK auto-hitting is only on nat 20s. Critting and confirming crits is not related to this, a crit that is confirmed on an original roll of 19 is still a miss if your AB isn't high enough for 19 to hit.

If it was otherwise you could practically ignore AB. A character with 0 AB using a 15-20/x3 weapon would hit 30% of the time for x3 damage = 90%, while a character with 1000 AB would hit 70% of the time + 30% x3 = 160% damage. In other words even with no AB you'd only be losing about ~44% of your potential damage.

 

[Average Manatee]

You don't auto hit on anything but 20. Your 15 is still a miss if your AB is low.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Attack-Roll

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action).

Increased Threat Range

Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. For example:

19–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit.

18–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 18, 19, or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit.

Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.

The only way to get more automatic hits (or automatic successes for some other checks) is abilities that force you to roll 20 or abilities that let you reroll and take the best rolls.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Yes, I see. I was wrong.

 

[Alienman]

Finished Through the Ashes a couple of days ago. I don't know what the consensus is on Codex for it, but I liked it. I enjoyed the low-level adventure, and the lack of a "Chosen One" storyline, even if the ending might indicate something among those lines. The trap system was interesting too, but maybe a bit overtuned. Anyway, I wrote a short review, you can find it here, or read it below if interested.

Spoiler

Through the Ashes is a stand-alone story DLC for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, which I have not yet written a review for since I haven’t actually finished it. Trust me, I have tried many times with different kinds of characters. Everything from paladins to druids, but I always seem to hit a wall during my journey through the demon-infested lands. One day I will, though, probably when all expansions have been released for the game – for the complete experience! Some of the content does integrate with the main campaign, so the preferable thing is to experience it all in one glorious take. However, that is for another time, back to the key event.

Same world, different tale
Through the Ashes as mentioned is a stand-alone adventure that takes place in the same world and time frame, yet, you don’t play or interact with the hero from the main campaign in any way. In this journey, you play as a random survivor during the siege of Kenabres, which you get to create in the normal Pathfinder sense – class, appearance, and sex. The primary mission here is not to save the world, a la the typical Chosen One storyline. The central focus is pure survival, and it won’t be easy.

Some stuff intersects with the main campaign, such as in finding the sanctuary, which shares location, including a couple of characters. Otherwise, the story stands on its own, and there isn’t much narration given since getting to safety is the chief concern. However, I liked Through the Ashes for its simple, and quite clear story. I found the low-level adventure without the Chosen One plot refreshing, as Wrath of the Righteous can get a bit ridiculous at times with demons, angels, and end-of-the-word rhetoric coming out of every story orifice possibly.

Traps, and more traps!

This little quest comes with a couple gameplay changes since the focus is on low-level adventurers having to overcome overwhelming odds. This translates to gameplay changes as in having to use traps that have been placed around in the world to survive. The introduction of these traps is a bit of a hit or miss. They are cool to discover and to figure out, as in how to use them to cause absolute maximum damage. However, it also means that many of the encounters you come across are tuned to be almost impossible to defeat normally. This can get very frustrating as the F5 and F6 keys run warm due to retries. Some of these traps feel a bit finicky too, considering the controls are not the most precise always. Overall, I liked this addition to the gameplay, and it fits the scrapper mentality of the campaign, but I’m not sure it would be that great for the big one. One thing I hope they change for the future, especially with a new mechanic like this, is how stealth works. Right now there is no indication if you will be discovered skulking about or not. And the traps heavily rely on scouting and sneaking, but thanks to the zero signs of how the stealth works, it’s totally up to RNG if you will be detected or not. Bit of a bummer.

Beyond that, everything else is recognizable, as the fighting and leveling remain based on the Pathfinder 3.5 Dungeon & Dragon rules (which is my favorite system). To hammer home the survival aspect good loot will be a rare find. This gets amplified as you pick up civilians during the important scavenging. These civilians come with their own backgrounds and mini-quests, so losing any of them will lower your XP income. From a roleplay standpoint, these people are totally ignorable, if you decide to play that kind of character. If you don’t, you will have to make sure to share the meager resources you find since these people will get injured and sick during the trek to freedom.

Hero or villain?
I tried to keep everyone alive, but there weren’t enough potions and scrolls to do so, which forced me to pick who lived and who died – who would provide the most usefulness to the team and our survival? I enjoyed this feature because it put a serious pressure on you as a team leader. Usually in Pathfinder, you can sleep away your problems, like having a sickness, being poisoned, or just refreshing your spells, but not this time around. Each rest brings the civilians closer to death door, and without resources, you might doom your little crew of survivalists by taking that sweet nap. It’s a nice balance to consider.

On the CORE difficulty setting this took my party to the limit. I was constantly low on health, potions, and I think at one point every companion was either poisoned or had some kind of crippling illness. When I could take that needed rest, it was like being blessed by the gods – to finally be able to start anew and be refreshed and ready for action!

The visual style remains the same, but that is not very surprising considering what the DLC entails, and the sound and music fall under the same category. However, there are a few new voices and they fit the new characters introduced in this adventure perfectly. My wish is that some of them would get transferred to the main campaign – like the rogue Thiefling companion. I liked his voice and the ruggedness it expressed. Another addition is the use of cinematic in-engine cutscenes. I only remember the one from the beginning of the main game, here they were frequent to push the story along. I can’t say I minded them too much since they were very non-intrusive and didn’t ruin any of the roleplaying I set out for my character.

So many season passes
All in all, I enjoyed Through the Ashes, however, it comes with one big issue. The story ends on a cliffhanger, promised to end in the next DLC. I have nothing against this per se, other than the fact that it won’t be part of the same Season Pass. The conclusion to this story will not be included in the price of the first Season Pass, which really irks me. I will probably buy Season Pass 2 down the line when it’s on sale, but I can’t say I appreciate this sale tactic much – as in holding the ending hostage until you pay up when it eventually comes out. Despite that, I recommend Through the Ashes. It was a fun adventure without the Chosen One trope that is so common in RPGs. Just keep in mind that the ending is non-conclusive and you will have to pay to experience it.

Thanks for reading.

Did you guys like it?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

If I changed difficulty to respec and change it back, will I lose achievements?

 

[Skorpion]

Finished Through the Ashes a couple of days ago. I don't know what the consensus is on Codex for it, but I liked it. I enjoyed the low-level adventure, and the lack of a "Chosen One" storyline, even if the ending might indicate something among those lines. The trap system was interesting too, but maybe a bit overtuned. Anyway, I wrote a short review, you can find it here, or read it below if interested.

Spoiler

Through the Ashes is a stand-alone story DLC for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, which I have not yet written a review for since I haven’t actually finished it. Trust me, I have tried many times with different kinds of characters. Everything from paladins to druids, but I always seem to hit a wall during my journey through the demon-infested lands. One day I will, though, probably when all expansions have been released for the game – for the complete experience! Some of the content does integrate with the main campaign, so the preferable thing is to experience it all in one glorious take. However, that is for another time, back to the key event.

Same world, different tale
Through the Ashes as mentioned is a stand-alone adventure that takes place in the same world and time frame, yet, you don’t play or interact with the hero from the main campaign in any way. In this journey, you play as a random survivor during the siege of Kenabres, which you get to create in the normal Pathfinder sense – class, appearance, and sex. The primary mission here is not to save the world, a la the typical Chosen One storyline. The central focus is pure survival, and it won’t be easy.

Some stuff intersects with the main campaign, such as in finding the sanctuary, which shares location, including a couple of characters. Otherwise, the story stands on its own, and there isn’t much narration given since getting to safety is the chief concern. However, I liked Through the Ashes for its simple, and quite clear story. I found the low-level adventure without the Chosen One plot refreshing, as Wrath of the Righteous can get a bit ridiculous at times with demons, angels, and end-of-the-word rhetoric coming out of every story orifice possibly.

Traps, and more traps!

This little quest comes with a couple gameplay changes since the focus is on low-level adventurers having to overcome overwhelming odds. This translates to gameplay changes as in having to use traps that have been placed around in the world to survive. The introduction of these traps is a bit of a hit or miss. They are cool to discover and to figure out, as in how to use them to cause absolute maximum damage. However, it also means that many of the encounters you come across are tuned to be almost impossible to defeat normally. This can get very frustrating as the F5 and F6 keys run warm due to retries. Some of these traps feel a bit finicky too, considering the controls are not the most precise always. Overall, I liked this addition to the gameplay, and it fits the scrapper mentality of the campaign, but I’m not sure it would be that great for the big one. One thing I hope they change for the future, especially with a new mechanic like this, is how stealth works. Right now there is no indication if you will be discovered skulking about or not. And the traps heavily rely on scouting and sneaking, but thanks to the zero signs of how the stealth works, it’s totally up to RNG if you will be detected or not. Bit of a bummer.

Beyond that, everything else is recognizable, as the fighting and leveling remain based on the Pathfinder 3.5 Dungeon & Dragon rules (which is my favorite system). To hammer home the survival aspect good loot will be a rare find. This gets amplified as you pick up civilians during the important scavenging. These civilians come with their own backgrounds and mini-quests, so losing any of them will lower your XP income. From a roleplay standpoint, these people are totally ignorable, if you decide to play that kind of character. If you don’t, you will have to make sure to share the meager resources you find since these people will get injured and sick during the trek to freedom.

Hero or villain?
I tried to keep everyone alive, but there weren’t enough potions and scrolls to do so, which forced me to pick who lived and who died – who would provide the most usefulness to the team and our survival? I enjoyed this feature because it put a serious pressure on you as a team leader. Usually in Pathfinder, you can sleep away your problems, like having a sickness, being poisoned, or just refreshing your spells, but not this time around. Each rest brings the civilians closer to death door, and without resources, you might doom your little crew of survivalists by taking that sweet nap. It’s a nice balance to consider.

On the CORE difficulty setting this took my party to the limit. I was constantly low on health, potions, and I think at one point every companion was either poisoned or had some kind of crippling illness. When I could take that needed rest, it was like being blessed by the gods – to finally be able to start anew and be refreshed and ready for action!

The visual style remains the same, but that is not very surprising considering what the DLC entails, and the sound and music fall under the same category. However, there are a few new voices and they fit the new characters introduced in this adventure perfectly. My wish is that some of them would get transferred to the main campaign – like the rogue Thiefling companion. I liked his voice and the ruggedness it expressed. Another addition is the use of cinematic in-engine cutscenes. I only remember the one from the beginning of the main game, here they were frequent to push the story along. I can’t say I minded them too much since they were very non-intrusive and didn’t ruin any of the roleplaying I set out for my character.

So many season passes
All in all, I enjoyed Through the Ashes, however, it comes with one big issue. The story ends on a cliffhanger, promised to end in the next DLC. I have nothing against this per se, other than the fact that it won’t be part of the same Season Pass. The conclusion to this story will not be included in the price of the first Season Pass, which really irks me. I will probably buy Season Pass 2 down the line when it’s on sale, but I can’t say I appreciate this sale tactic much – as in holding the ending hostage until you pay up when it eventually comes out. Despite that, I recommend Through the Ashes. It was a fun adventure without the Chosen One trope that is so common in RPGs. Just keep in mind that the ending is non-conclusive and you will have to pay to experience it.

Thanks for reading.

Did you guys like it?

Nice review, I had skipped this but may take a run through because of your write-up

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

The bulletin board seems much better than the gallows.
The Gallows only reduces the chance of a turn getting skipped by 3%, whereas the bulletin board gives you a +3% chance of getting an extra turn AND a -3% chance of a turn skipping.
Am I missing something, or is the board just better?

 

[Average Manatee]

The bulletin board seems much better than the gallows.
The Gallows only reduces the chance of a turn getting skipped by 3%, whereas the bulletin board gives you a +3% chance of getting an extra turn AND a -3% chance of a turn skipping.
Am I missing something, or is the board just better?

There's a lot of no-brainer choices in crusade mode. The best is the Monument which gives 5% chance of extra turn. You'll probably never ever have negative morale.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Eh, I found my units skip turns quite often, even though the Crusade Morale is at max. Not sure what's up with that.