Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

My standard is how good the character is vs a mercenary clone, and any mercenary Hellknight will be way better than Regill. You really want to be a Sanctified Slayer as a Hellknight to get the most out of your domains and you want way more Charisma than 14. Plus all Dex melee builds suck, no exceptions, for numerous reasons that should be blatant for any experienced player. Similarly you can easily make an Slayer merc that is WAYYYYYYY better than Greybor., simply from how Spawn Slayer and Deliverer is superior to base Slayer.

Mercs suck. Game is designed to be played with companions and they're more than good enough while presenting an interesting challenge to design strategies to get the most out of their starting set-up. Different companion combos generate different play patterns which enhances replayability.

Reg gets plenty out of his Domains as is and the Weapon and Armor Training lvls from Armiger along with full BAB are fine. I do think that Armiger Order levels should count toward Domains but once he hits level 13 it isn't an issue. Touch of Law kicks in immediately if you choose that.

14 CHR is fine, what are you lowering to get that higher? He was an effective Intimidator on Unfair with Dreadful Carnage at 14 CHR. 16 would just be +1 out of fifty or so. Likewise with Smite Chaos.

Greybor's starting Feats set him up to really focus on Sneaks, both for damage and attached debuffs. To get the most out of that you can max his Stealth and open combat with him ambushing a key target which of course plays well with his character arc. With that high Stealth (and Trapfinding for Perception) he can fill the role of party scout if you don't want to bring Aru or Wolj, who are both Chaotic. I would have used him in my Aeon Lawlful playthrough if my MC wasn't Slayer itself.

The game has several *very* good bashing Shields starting with the Holy one from the Skeletal Salesman showing up about the time you get Greybor. He can get Shield Master at lvl 11 which along with Defensive Study helps him survive better after his initial ambush.

Deliverer meme just won't die. What exactly does it bring to the table other than the same marginal damage Greybor gets from Accomplished SA and Hammer? Spawn is OK now that it's fixed (Swift Study is highly underrated tho) but base Slayer is solid if you know how to get the most out of Slayer Talents. I chose Vanguard for my Aeon MC because Tactician is *really* good. Simply using it for Shake it Off on hard fights is enough then later you can branch out to other TW Feats, especially with mods. For melee Slayer Uncanny Dodge is very good as well.

 

[Average Manatee]

Boon companion

Is your Seelah a full Paladin? If so, why are you giving her Boon Companion? A Paladin in Wrath is a class with full pet progression.

Huh, alright then. Does that happen anywhere else where you get a pet at level 4 that isn't -4 levels? I thought the game didn't even let you take boon companion (or made it thumbs down) if you had full pet levels?

EDIT: Oh wait, obviously it recommends boon if you go pal 1->beast rider 1->pal x

 

[PapaPetro]

Hey do any of you guys make custom classss for your PCs using Bag of Tricks/Toy Box? I always start my guy as level 1 Mystic Theurge with Oracle/Sorcerer spell progression. It's super fun and you pretty much have a one many party buffer which solves a lot of micromanaging headache (between Combined Spells and Heighten Metamagic for spontaneous casting, you have a near inexhaustible supply of spell slots).

Was wondering if you guys ever delved into making your own classes too.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Desiderius Woljif's offensive casting as an ES is useless to me. My MC is an AT, and I have both Daeran and Ember in my standard line up. At ES4 I still have 2 casts of a Mirror Image, even if they are only 1d4+1. Vivi buffs do everything else I would be using on him with some nice extras, and the benefit of way more sneaks and feats. The biggest loss is debilitation progression, but oh well.

ES has more Sneaks with Vitals. Vivi Bite is probably better now than it was with the Natural Attack fixes, and you'll eventually get to Grand Mutagen which is very nice. So if you want the Infusion buffs no doubt ES4/Vivi16 is also a solid choice.

I'll have to try that with him. I've been going pure ES on him because I didn't know how to build him, and he's ok but as a caster he's no substitute for Nenio or Ember.
How do you use him and Greybor in such a way that they won't just die? I assume the idea is that you use invisibility or blink to go after mages and archers, but I found its just more efficient to use my own mages and archers to shut them down.

 

[scytheavatar]

Desiderius Woljif's offensive casting as an ES is useless to me. My MC is an AT, and I have both Daeran and Ember in my standard line up. At ES4 I still have 2 casts of a Mirror Image, even if they are only 1d4+1. Vivi buffs do everything else I would be using on him with some nice extras, and the benefit of way more sneaks and feats. The biggest loss is debilitation progression, but oh well.

ES has more Sneaks with Vitals. Vivi Bite is probably better now than it was with the Natural Attack fixes, and you'll eventually get to Grand Mutagen which is very nice. So if you want the Infusion buffs no doubt ES4/Vivi16 is also a solid choice.

I'll have to try that with him. I've been going pure ES on him because I didn't know how to build him, and he's ok but as a caster he's no substitute for Nenio or Ember.
How do you use him and Greybor in such a way that they won't just die? I assume the idea is that you use invisibility or blink to go after mages and archers, but I found its just more efficient to use my own mages and archers to shut them down.

Easy way is to get them a pet to ride (which is why ES4 Arcane Rider 16 would be my favorite choice for Wol. You can get the Triceratops statue for Greybor). If you don't want to then you need to have them hide at the back and attack only when your enemies have locked onto their target. And then pray they don't switch targets suddenly which they do all the time.

Wol Vivi can get reasonably tanky if you take Archmage armor and have your Mutagen up. But yes good luck with Greybor.

 

[Nikanuur]

I killed all four of them the hard way. Just used Haste and displacement on my MC tank while everyone shot at it or hit it with magic. Seelah tried helping but she isn't as tanky as my mount so she needed healing.
Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

Is there an AI mod or something that makes the monsters/NPCs more wily? I always felt more intelligent/wiser monsters would figure to stop the grug tactics attacking the frontline tank and go after mages, then healers, then finish off the vulnerable tank.

They do tend to go after your squishies and ignore the tanks though. I've seen them make a bee-line to my mages and archers if they have the chance. Hence why having a triceratops mount is so useful; you plop it in the doorway and bam, instant bottleneck.
Its how I fought most of the encounters in Ivory Sanctum and killed the last Guardian.
Also if you put someone squishier than your tank into combat like Greybor or Woljif the enemy will turn around and attack them.

Imagine traipsing around with a pet Triceratops, though.

"Wanna go downstairs or explore why this left turn isn't pass--"
"We create our own passages, fool!"

"For once, I want to sleep when we camp! (Distant tortured souls wailing, the walls making funny screechings, and dripping noises everywhere are totally unrelated.)"
Triceratops, for the 147th time, is snoring so loudly that a dribble is falling from the ceiling.

"You ask me, what's in front of that corridor? Man, I haven't seen what's in front of us since we delved into this dungeon. Who's bright idea was it to take this thing with us anyway?"

"Aaaaargh, both my legs are broken! You said you cast a ward against fear on that freaking monster! Why is it running everywheeeeere!"

 

[Average Manatee]

How do you use him and Greybor in such a way that they won't just die? I assume the idea is that you use invisibility or blink to go after mages and archers, but I found its just more efficient to use my own mages and archers to shut them down.

Lunge + Enlarge and have them stand behind something tanky, abusing 15' noodle stretch arms attacks. Or yeah, pet.

Trying to manage aggro in this game is really a PITA past the first chapter. You can do it but its a lot of work, fails reasonably often anyway, and there's next to no payoff in the form of these kinds of "glass cannon" melee characters actually dealing more damage than someone tankier.

Wol Vivi can get reasonably tanky if you take Archmage armor and have your Mutagen up. But yes good luck with Greybor.

You can take advantage of Archmage armor with anyone if they drink potions constantly. Haven't actually used it myself in a game but there's tons lying around and you can make them easily with brew potions. Does feel cheesy as hell of course (not that Archmage armor isn't already cheesy as hell).

 

[Haplo]

Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

No, I don't think killing the earlier incarnations changes anything.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius Woljif's offensive casting as an ES is useless to me. My MC is an AT, and I have both Daeran and Ember in my standard line up. At ES4 I still have 2 casts of a Mirror Image, even if they are only 1d4+1. Vivi buffs do everything else I would be using on him with some nice extras, and the benefit of way more sneaks and feats. The biggest loss is debilitation progression, but oh well.

ES has more Sneaks with Vitals. Vivi Bite is probably better now than it was with the Natural Attack fixes, and you'll eventually get to Grand Mutagen which is very nice. So if you want the Infusion buffs no doubt ES4/Vivi16 is also a solid choice.

I'll have to try that with him. I've been going pure ES on him because I didn't know how to build him, and he's ok but as a caster he's no substitute for Nenio or Ember.
How do you use him and Greybor in such a way that they won't just die? I assume the idea is that you use invisibility or blink to go after mages and archers, but I found its just more efficient to use my own mages and archers to shut them down.

He's heavily reliant on his self-buffs but if you use those he should be up there with anyone else on AC then has Illusion Magic on top of that.

The most important spell for Dex melee is Reduce Person. +2 AB/AC and most of his damage comes from Sneaks and DEX bonus so there's no real downside. Shield spell always up and make sure he has Deflection (from Ring or Shield of Faith, which ticks up to +3 at lvl 6) and Barkskin (Cam has full so also goes to +3 at lvl 6 up to +5 at lvl 12). Mirror Image prevents first few attacks (can be Empowered or Maxxed for more Images), and Displacement for toughest fights. Greater Invis also great of course.



This is Core Grey Garrison (missing Deflection bonus) but with Reduce up.



Here I'm playing badly but Mirror Image saves the day.



You can see how many Sneaks he gets with Vitals up. More than any other class. Give him Abundant and mostly let other toons handle team buffs so he can focus on himself.



Leading with True Strike here on Hard to make sure Debilitating Strike is established. With Bookworm's Headband he mostly soloed this fight.



I like to use him to ambush casters and interrupt their spells in RTwP.



Another interruption where you can see the high number of Sneaks from combination of Rogue and Vitals.



Makes a great scout since he comes with his own Vanish.



Here you can see opening with Obsidian Flow and Slow in the same round using Darven's Hat. Pair with Resist Fire, Communal and Enforced Vigor to give team a Mythic buff with Flow.



Here you can see him slicing and dicing on his fifth attack. Not sure if this is Hard or Unfair. I got to the point where I stopped using him on Core/Hard because he was just too good, but on Unfair he'd probably be a good challenge to manage.

 

[Desiderius]

Greybor as I said sets up well for Shield Bashing and Defensive Study also gives him some more AC. Make sure he has Cat's Grace to take advatage of high DEX bonus on Medium Armors.

Can also just Dual Axes or use Urgrosh if you're smart with tactics. Using him as an ambusher instead of a tank works well for this, especially with the Slayer bracers from Labyrinth which will trigger a good bit on difficulties under Unfair.

Plus he does a ton of damage and dead things can't hit him.

 

[Desiderius]

There is no cheese. The opportunity cost on Archmage Armor is massive aside from a few classes (like ES) and it takes a long time to be worth it even there.

105% of things people say are cheese is just being unaware of better alternatives that end up being reasonably balanced taking into account what the real threats are.

Once you find *everything* you can do game gets easy, but that takes a lot of discovery that one-weird-trickism isn't interested in doing.

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

No, I don't think killing the earlier incarnations changes anything.

Just logjam him by the second door so he's far enough from the healing altar.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Is there a point in killing all of those, other than the achievement? Or in future playthroughs can I just kill the one in the mimic room and ignore the rest?

No, I don't think killing the earlier incarnations changes anything.

Just logjam him by the second door so he's far enough from the healing altar.

Yeah that's what I did. I just wanted to know if killing the other 3 does something, or if its just that one near the mimic room I have to bother with to get the loot.
I have the achievement, so I don't have to deal with them anymore.
Well, unless I want to go for Sadistic Game Design, that is.

 

[Desiderius]

Welp, never knew that you didn't have to kill the first three. Learn something new every day.



MC Vanguard Aeon lighting Unfair Guardian up with help from Touch of Law (auto roll 11) from Reg.



Seelah hitting it with a -14 atk malus while tanking.



Not immune to Stagger. Frigid Touch is no save either.

One thing about Undead is they don't have Spell Resistance so worth looking thru the spellbook for no save options. Searing Touch from Cleric is no save and can be easily maxxed with Rod of Mysticism.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

How did you get a Holy Axiomatic Eye for an Eye? I don't think I have that version of it?
What did you multiclass Lann with to give him frigid touch?

Anyway, beat Xanthir.
Not a fan of that encounter. I think it outstays its welcome. Xanthir himself isn't that much of a problem, its the 16 swarms or so that can only be hurt with AoEs and can resist fire for some silly reason.
After killing Xanthir for the third time I spent the next 10 rounds or so running around throwing every AoE scroll and spell I had at them.

I did learn some things though :
- Cloud Kill is somewhat useful against swarms
- Range Touch spells do seem to actually hurt them. After expending all of my AoE spells I threw a Hellfire at the last one out of desperation and it killed it.
- Mind Fog is great for softening up an enemy for Slumber or Illusions.
- You can, in fact, shove Xanthir in a hole, but not during his 4th phase.
- Those Frost Giants he spawns can fuck right off. Always geek the mage.

 

[LannTheStupid]

EDIT: Oh wait, obviously it recommends boon if you go pal 1->beast rider 1->pal x

First, that's why I asked whether your Seelah is a full Paladin. Second, if I am not mistaken, this combination is still a build with the full progression pet. Third, why are you paying attention to game recommendations?

 

[Desiderius]

How did you get a Holy Axiomatic Eye for an Eye? I don't think I have that version of it?

Holy from Holy Lance (Good Domain) on Sosiel, Axiomatic from Staff of Order (Law Domain) that I've been reliably informed Regill doesn't have. They both have Domain Zealot (Swift) and my fights go fast so can afford to load up on big hitters pre-fight.

What did you multiclass Lann with to give him frigid touch?

ZA2/Drovier. It has a nice Aura that gives everyone +30 speed. Also gives him a Mount to turn on the Combat Reflexes he starts with using Snap Shot but I think I threw in another ZA level before I mounted up so he could get Point Blank Master.

can resist fire

But not Lightning. Fire up the Chains and Stormbolts if you have them.

 

[Average Manatee]

EDIT: Oh wait, obviously it recommends boon if you go pal 1->beast rider 1->pal x

First, that's why I asked whether your Seelah is a full Paladin. Second, if I am not mistaken, this combination is still a build with the full progression pet. Third, why are you paying attention to game recommendations?

I thought Paladin's pet was level -4 like most of the other classes who get a pet at level 4. Boon Companion being recommended just made it easier to pick rather than pay attention to what the level was.

I don't really plan builds out or anything, just pick whatever and get on playing. I often mess up multiclass characters by skipping through and picking the wrong class. Nenio ended up with 13 scroll savant/7 lore master because I forgot to pick loremaster a few times.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

How did you get a Holy Axiomatic Eye for an Eye? I don't think I have that version of it?

Holy from Holy Lance (Good Domain) on Sosiel, Axiomatic from Staff of Order (Law Domain) that I've been reliably informed Regill doesn't have. They both have Domain Zealot (Swift) and my fights go fast so can afford to load up on big hitters pre-fight.

What did you multiclass Lann with to give him frigid touch?

ZA2/Drovier. It has a nice Aura that gives everyone +30 speed. Also gives him a Mount to turn on the Combat Reflexes he starts with using Snap Shot but I think I threw in another ZA level before I mounted up so he could get Point Blank Master.

can resist fire

But not Lightning. Fire up the Chains and Stormbolts if you have them.

Yeah, I noticed the lack of lightning resist. Sadly, I've been ignoring lightning spells because I saw that most demons had immunity to electricity damage, so I figured I wouldn't be needing it.


Kitsune tails are a huge trap. I got a few ranks of it to see what happens, and you really do have to get a rank of it each time to unlock the next power.
That means you have to blow 8 feats on it to get the final dominate ability. That is not a worthwhile investment. I don't know why Kitsunes just don't get it as a racial ability that scales with character level.
I gave Nenio Metamagic - Persistant instead. The idea is to give Phantasmal Killer a better chance of instantly killing the target.

 

[LannTheStupid]

ZA2/Drovier

Again, why ZA 2 instead of 3? Did you make a typo? On the third level, the Zen Archer starts using Wisdom instead of Dexterity for the accuracy of a bow.

It reminds me of Nerd Commando (AKA Pope Amole II), who switched Woljif from Eldritch Scoundrel exactly on the level that grants Debilitating Injury.

I mean, yes, I like to plan my builds. I like to use other people's builds. I like to try them and see what works and what does not. Maybe that's why I am seeing... things.

I gave Nenio Metamagic - Persistant instead. The idea is to give Phantasmal Killer a better chance of instantly killing the target.

That is, indeed, a very powerful combination and a very rewarding feeling when it works. I want a figurine of the Phantasmal Killer with the sword instead of my (not yet arrived) Arueshalae!

 

[Desiderius]

Again, why ZA 2 instead of 3? Did you make a typo? On the third level, the Zen Archer starts using Wisdom instead of Dexterity for the accuracy of a bow.

Because Lann's WIS and DEX are identical. Need ZA2 for Precise.

 

[Desiderius]

Lightning is also good vs Undead, which have no SR or Resistance.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Again, why ZA 2 instead of 3? Did you make a typo? On the third level, the Zen Archer starts using Wisdom instead of Dexterity for the accuracy of a bow.

Because Lann's WIS and DEX are identical. Need ZA2 for Precise.

Using WIS you can increase Lann's size without decreasing his accuracy. Otherwise, he will suffer -1 (I think) due to DEX penalty for the large size.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Don't Druids use wisdom for their spells though? Why not invest more into Lann's wisdom so he can be an effective druid and zen archer?
You do get a free stat point every few levels and there's a lot of wisdom boosting gear.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I gave Nenio Metamagic - Persistant instead. The idea is to give Phantasmal Killer a better chance of instantly killing the target.

That is, indeed, a very powerful combination and a very rewarding feeling when it works. I want a figurine of the Phantasmal Killer with the sword instead of my (not yet arrived) Arueshalae!

I know, its great. There's a surprising number of enemies that you can instantly kill too. I think I killed a few bosses and mythic enemies with it.
I think you can kill Xanthir with it, but I'm not sure. I'm sure I used it on him but I can't remember if it didn't get past his saves or if he was immune. It's kind of jank either way because of his 4 phases where he just comes back to life with full health like 3 times.